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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[X] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[X] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[X] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[X] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[X] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[X] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire
 
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[X] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[X] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[X] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[X] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[X] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[X] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
[x] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
- [x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
- [x] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
- [x] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
- [x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
- [x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
- [x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
Adhoc vote count started by Whenyouseeyou on Jul 21, 2023 at 9:54 AM, finished with 155 posts and 61 votes.
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Wanting to partition Bulgaria is wanting to put hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians and other South Slavs under a hostile government and condemn them to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency.
 
DanBaque said:
Wanting to partition Bulgaria is wanting to put hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians and other South Slavs under a hostile government and condemn them to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency.
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Are North Macedonians really Bulgarians? And if not, don't they face the same under Bulgaria? There isn't really an ethical answer here since we can't argue for their independence.
 
DanBaque said:
Wanting to partition Bulgaria is wanting to put hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians and other South Slavs under a hostile government and condemn them to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency.
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On the other hand, partitioning Macedonia (e.g., between a Bulgarian North and East Macedonia and a Greek South Macedonia[1]; or between a Serbian North Macedonia, a Bulgarian East Macedonia, and a Greek South Macedonia per OTL) also condemns the entire region to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency sponsored by a revanchist Bulgarian government. The only solution that doesn't condemn the region to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency is a united Macedonia under Bulgaria, and that not only involves taking land from Greece, a nonbelligerent in the Great Eastern War, but giving it to Bulgaria, a belligerent against the Republic. The latter especially is nonsensical from the point of view of the Republic.

[1] These terms referring to their historical usage, not their usage in the context of this vote, where part of western Thrace is counted as Eastern Macedonia for some reason.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
On the other hand, partitioning Macedonia (e.g., between a Bulgarian North and East Macedonia and a Greek South Macedonia[1]; or between a Serbian North Macedonia, a Bulgarian East Macedonia, and a Greek South Macedonia per OTL) also condemns the entire region to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency. The only solution that doesn't condemn the region to years of brutal insurgency and counterinsurgency is a united Macedonia under Bulgaria, and that not only involves taking land from Greece, a nonbelligerent in the Great Eastern War, but giving it to Bulgaria, a belligerent against the Republic. The latter especially is nonsensical from the point of view of the Republic.

[1] These terms referring to their historical usage, not their usage in the context of this vote, where part of western Thrace is counted as Eastern Macedonia for some reason.
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I don't see why Macedonia being united under Bulgaria would mean it'd be happily quiet under it either.

Independent Macedonia would have been an answer but it's not one we can take.
 
Nyvis said:
I don't see why Macedonia being united under Bulgaria would mean it'd be happily quiet under it either.
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The Bulgarian government was the major sponsor of IMRO (and at certain points was dominated by the latter), which had little to no support from the Serbian or Greek governments even when Macedonia was not wholly or partly in their territory. Presumably the Bulgarian government wouldn't be sponsoring an insurgency against itself.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
The Bulgarian government was the major sponsor of IMRO (and at certain points was dominated by the latter), which had little to no support from the Serbian or Greek governments even when Macedonia was not wholly or partly in their territory. Presumably the Bulgarian government wouldn't be sponsoring an insurgency against itself.
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Okay that's a solid point.

How much do we actually value a stable Balkan?

If we just use any abuse of minorities as an excuse for another Eastern War I'm sure it'll be just fine :V
 
I am in general agreement, we've repeatedly gone out of our way to fuck over the people of the Balkans as much as possible. More than that, we've gone out of our way to set up our own options in such a way that fucking over the people of the Balkans was the only option available and our choices are on how.
 
Might as well toss in an approval vote to the plan I prefer that's actually likely to win.

[X] Plan: Ottomans and Albanians Unite!
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
 
DanBaque said:
I am in general agreement, we've repeatedly gone out of our way to fuck over the people of the Balkans as much as possible. More than that, we've gone out of our way to set up our own options in such a way that fucking over the people of the Balkans was the only option available and our choices are on how.
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Dude the nations of the Balkans all what to be the big player of it at the cost of all the other Balkan Nations, like seriously thinking we could sove the problems in this conferences is very laughable.
 
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
Nyvis said:
How much do we actually value a stable Balkan?
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I'm moderately certain such a thing is impossible in the early 20th century, unless you pull the POD far enough back that, like, the Eastern Roman Empire never falls or something ludicrous like that.

So, zero. Stable Balkans are of zero value to our current considerations. :p
 
Manowl said:
Dude the nations of the Balkans all what to be the big player of it at the cost of all the other Balkan Nations, like seriously thinking we could sove the problems in this conferences is very laughable.
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We could've not gone for a system that incentivizes this kind of kill your neighbor foreign policy and that looks for a better way, or at least kept it within the Great Powers so that changes would've been minimal. You're not really reading what I've said.
 
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