Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

the ottomans need to die, quite frankly, because they are experienced at genociding people groups. I'd trust the Serbs more to treat their new people well than any Ottoman occupation. Or are we just going to ignore the long list of massacres they've conducted upon everyone in the Balkans?
 
[x] Plan Give War a Chance
- [x] Accept.
- [x] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
- [x] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
- [x] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
- [x] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
the ottomans need to die, quite frankly, because they are experienced at genociding people groups. I'd trust the Serbs more to treat their new people well than any Ottoman occupation. Or are we just going to ignore the long list of massacres they've conducted upon everyone in the Balkans?
Do you need a long list of the massacres conducted by Austrians, Croatians, Hungarians, Serbs, and most every minority in the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the crisis of the revolutions of 1848 and Hungarian War of Independence?
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas

I would honestly prefer the Ottomans over Greece and Serbia. At least they have a radical wing of the party in government over there that might overthrow the Sultan later.

Oh boy, if you have a problem with Balkan nationalists, I have something to educate you about….
 
I think the arguments over "are the Serbs good political allies" should be second to "can Serbia meaningfully impact the war?" Right now, we've broken through the most significant mountains, and while Austria is building a defensive line, they're not in an unassailable position. Yes, Romania was an unexpected negative response to us deciding not to negotiate, but it's not dramatically changing the situation at the front lines. The worst reasonable outcome that we'd face right now is that the A-H army digs in well enough that we can't dislodge them and we spend the summer waging a war of maneuver (which we're demonstrably very good at) against the Russians while our allies hold the line in the south. I've been pretty strongly in favour of taking chunks out of Russia, so I'm a bit biased, but this doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Meanwhile, what do we get out of the Serbian/Greek proposal? The Greek military isn't strong enough to fight on their own; they're explicitly asking for 800,000 soldiers to be withdrawn from the Austrian front so that they can fight in Greece. Serbia, meanwhile, is completely surrounded and reliant on us rapidly breaking through the mountains of Macedonia to relieve them.

IMO, we should consider opening another front if:
  1. Our current fronts have stalled out and are unable to conduct meaningful offensives,
  2. We likely will be able to rapidly seize the initiative and achieve strategic goals on the new front,
  3. It doesn't significantly weaken our current fronts/force us to redirect our efforts away from our current objectives, and
  4. In a very distant last place, our new allies are politically favourable.
None of these are true in this case. If our only motivation is to make friends with Greece, we can just arrange a plebiscite post-war and achieve the same net effect.
 
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I think the arguments over "are the Serbs good political allies" should be second to "can Serbia meaningfully impact the war?" Right now, we've broken through the most significant mountains, and while Austria is building a defensive line, they're not in an unassailable position. Yes, Romania was an unexpected negative response to us deciding not to negotiate, but it's not dramatically changing the situation at the front lines. The worst reasonable outcome that we'd face right now is that the A-H army digs in well enough that we can't dislodge them and we spend the summer waging a war of maneuver (which we're demonstrably very good at) against the Russians while our allies hold the line in the south. I've been pretty strongly in favour of taking chunks out of Russia, so I'm a bit biased, but this doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Meanwhile, what do we get out of the Serbian/Greek proposal? The Greek military isn't strong enough to fight on their own; they're explicitly asking for 800,000 soldiers to be withdrawn from the Austrian front so that they can fight in Greece. Serbia, meanwhile, is completely surrounded and reliant on us rapidly breaking through the mountains of Macedonia to relieve them.

IMO, we should consider opening another front if:
  1. Our current fronts have stalled out and are unable to conduct meaningful offensives,
  2. We likely will be able to rapidly seize the initiative and achieve strategic goals on the new front,
  3. It doesn't significantly weaken our current fronts/force us to redirect our efforts away from our current objectives, and
  4. In a very distant last place, our new allies are politically favourable.
None of these are true in this case. If our only motivation is to make friends with Greece, we can just arrange a plebiscite post-war and achieve the same net effect.
...hm, I'm convinced. Changing vote from accepting to one of the plans which decline it.

[X] Plan: Case Fuck Russia (gently)

Choosing this over the leading plan because I think attacking into mountainous Balkan terrain in Winter would be costly for us - even if it won't be as insurmountable as, say, attacking into the Alps
 
I think the arguments over "are the Serbs good political allies" should be second to "can Serbia meaningfully impact the war?" Right now, we've broken through the most significant mountains, and while Austria is building a defensive line, they're not in an unassailable position. Yes, Romania was an unexpected negative response to us deciding not to negotiate, but it's not dramatically changing the situation at the front lines. The worst reasonable outcome that we'd face right now is that the A-H army digs in well enough that we can't dislodge them and we spend the summer waging a war of maneuver (which we're demonstrably very good at) against the Russians while our allies hold the line in the south. I've been pretty strongly in favour of taking chunks out of Russia, so I'm a bit biased, but this doesn't seem like a bad thing.

I think the argument over "what does this do for our tactical situation" should be second to "what does this do for our ideological strategic situation". I might be swayed to think differently if I felt like we were at a risk of losing, which would obviously be disastrous strategically, but we aren't, so we shouldn't make decisions with possible long term impacts for short term gains. It's just not a sacrifice we need to do.

We are fundamentally an ideological project, and any normalization we achieve as part of the current system is temporary. Our diplomacy should be to extend a hand to rebels and radicals, not to monarchies.

The fact they're not very useful at that and would require us spending soldiers to prop up their fronts rather than gain soldiers from them makes the decisions much easier of course.
 
I think the argument over "what does this do for our tactical situation" should be second to "what does this do for our ideological strategic situation". I might be swayed to think differently if I felt like we were at a risk of losing, which would obviously be disastrous strategically, but we aren't, so we shouldn't make decisions with possible long term impacts for short term gains. It's just not a sacrifice we need to do.

We are fundamentally an ideological project, and any normalization we achieve as part of the current system is temporary. Our diplomacy should be to extend a hand to rebels and radicals, not to monarchies.

The fact they're not very useful at that and would require us spending soldiers to prop up their fronts rather than gain soldiers from them makes the decisions much easier of course.
Yeah, fair; I think our baselines are slightly different so we're valuing things differently while coming to the same conclusion. To me, Serbia is less distasteful than Russia; I'd rather a peace where we have liberated large areas of the latter and then need to apply pressure (to euphemistically put it) to Serbia to stop being a right wing constitutional monarchy than, say, a situation where we're locked in a western front style war of attrition and would need to inflict millions of casualties on Germany's populace to break through and end the war (since that weakens us going into the next one). If the best way to spread the revolution is to form a temporary alliance with a slightly less distasteful ally, I'd accept it; I just don't think it's helpful at all.

(Also, to be fair, the strategic situation is inherently an ideological one and vice versa)
 
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I think the argument over "what does this do for our tactical situation" should be second to "what does this do for our ideological strategic situation".
Personally I think that (at least partially because we are winning) the tactical situation is irellevant/a side-show. What I want is to sway Greece neutral, or preferably to our side, because its position is strategically important in a geopolitical sense. With Greece on their side, if we want to do anything in the Med, the Entente can be right there instantly. It's fair to point out that the UK has the Greek Islands and the French have Alexandria, so they have good access to the Med anyway, but Greece is a difficult coastline to invade, so it's better that the Entente have to invade it than them not having to do that because Greece likes them.

It's pure cynical realpolitik, but if supporting them now is the difference between Greece immediately joining the Entente for protection after the war and them not doing that then I think it's worth it.
 
Personally I think that (at least partially because we are winning) the tactical situation is irellevant/a side-show. What I want is to sway Greece neutral, or preferably to our side, because its position is strategically important in a geopolitical sense. With Greece on their side, if we want to do anything in the Med, the Entente can be right there instantly. It's fair to point out that the UK has the Greek Islands and the French have Alexandria, so they have good access to the Med anyway, but Greece is a difficult coastline to invade, so it's better that the Entente have to invade it than them not having to do that because Greece likes them.

It's pure cynical realpolitik, but if supporting them now is the difference between Greece immediately joining the Entente for protection after the war and them not doing that then I think it's worth it.

As I said, we are an ideological project and can only succeed by acting as one. Acting like a regular empire with regular strategic interests is not a winning strategy because it's just not what we are and we're only allowed to play that game on borrowed time. I expect the end of the eastern war to be what shatters this illusion anyway so I don't want to invest in realpolitik. I want to invest in revolutionary politics because it will soon be the only way we're allowed to act.
 
I agree that soon we will have to go full mask-off, "we only demand the earth" style. However I think this is too early. Ideally I think that comes after either our first Entente victory or after we get the US firmly onside. The moment will probably come sooner than I'd like though.
 
Oh boy, if you have a problem with Balkan nationalists, I have something to educate you about….
I don't see where I've said anything about Balkan nationalists. I'm also well aware of the extensive list of genocidal crimes the Ottomans have committed, just as I am aware of what just about everyone in the Balkans have done to each other over the centuries. Is wanting change and revolution now suddenly become a faux pas since I last checked or do people think the Ottomans are immune to that happening to them for some reason? Because that part of my statement is apparently being completely ignored.
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Etranger on Jun 30, 2023 at 7:01 PM, finished with 123 posts and 79 votes.
 
Do you need a long list of the massacres conducted by Austrians, Croatians, Hungarians, Serbs, and most every minority in the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the crisis of the revolutions of 1848 and Hungarian War of Independence?

I don't really get your point. One instance of it from the other Balkan cultures is by no means equivalent to the centuries of Ottoman rule, especially considering they're one of the root causes of the tensions in the Balkans.
 
I don't see where I've said anything about Balkan nationalists. I'm also well aware of the extensive list of genocidal crimes the Ottomans have committed, just as I am aware of what just about everyone in the Balkans have done to each other over the centuries. Is wanting change and revolution now suddenly become a faux pas since I last checked or do people think the Ottomans are immune to that happening to them for some reason? Because that part of my statement is apparently being completely ignored.

No, I don't think the Ottomans are immune to change, but if we're lionizing Ottoman republicans I'll point out that they were historically authoritarian ethnonationalists who yes, committed genocide. Even Ataturk, holy of holiest Turkish republicans, was more akin to Porfirio Diaz than anything we want to work with - and any mega-Turkish CUP state would be similarly noxious to our principles. If you wanted to use these arguments to reject engagement with the Balkans, ok that's fine, but you said you'd rather work with the Ottomans because of their 'radical wing'. So don't patronize me for pointing out what that radical wing was.
 
No, I don't think the Ottomans are immune to change, but if we're lionizing Ottoman republicans I'll point out that they were historically authoritarian ethnonationalists who yes, committed genocide. Even Ataturk, holy of holiest Turkish republicans, was more akin to Porfirio Diaz than anything we want to work with - and any mega-Turkish CUP state would be similarly noxious to our principles. If you wanted to use these arguments to reject engagement with the Balkans, ok that's fine, but you said you'd rather work with the Ottomans because of their 'radical wing'. So don't patronize me for pointing out what that radical wing was.

We're actually not talking about the Young Turks. The Young Ottomans have never been suppressed, and they were a far less nationalist and ethnosupremacist branch of radicalism.
 
As I recall, the Young Ottomans lost prominence after the Sultan ended the first Constitutional Period of the empire in favor of centralizing power again, may want to make sure we step in to make sure they don't lose prominence and let the more unpleasent elements of the movement hijack that revolutionary radicalism like OTL.
 
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The "we love Turks let's do genocide on the rest" group in the ottomans isn't anywhere near power at the moment, as of right now their probably the most multicultural of all the monarchies ironically
 
As I recall, the Young Ottomans lost prominence after the Sultan ended the first Constitutional Period of the empire in favor of centralizing power again, may want to make sure we step in to make sure they don't lost prominence and let the more unpleasent elements of the movement hijack that revolutionary radicalism like OTL.
If the Sultan tries to centralise we/the IRA will support a Y.O coup. That would be an excellent moment to radicalise the Y.Os.
 
Fiction: The Five Weeks War
As the war rages on, and the brave forces of Germany, Italy, and Spain face off against the absolutist regimes of Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Romania, on the home front, life continues on, and morale must be kept up! As such, the Hamburg Actors Cooperative Troupe is proud to present, a German Comic Opera in all its glory…


The Five Weeks War

(Inspired heavily by Gilbert and Sullivan's comic operas, as well as the stage adaptation of Les Misérables)

In the city of Hamburg, revolution has broken out in the streets! The stage opens on a grand setpiece of a barricade, upon which the entirety of the opera will take place. The main cast all take their places atop it, a motley collection of revolutionaries, liberals, and citizens of Hamburg ("Red, Gold, And Black!"), including the Revolutionary Noble, the Radical Socialite, and the Liberal Soldier, who each take it upon themselves to be the 'leaders' of the militia. The Representative of the Confederation in Hamburg, a clear parody of the Hapsburgs, with prosthetic chin and a referenced related fiancee, appears at the bottom to try and convince them to stand down ("A Return To Noble Peace"), which only enrages the masses as he seeks to appease them through promising less representation and more power for the nobility, viewing their grievances as a result of 'over-democratization'. He is chased off-stage by the unnamed members of the revolutionary militia ("We'll Show You Democracy").

With the Confederation chased out of the city, this leaves the three leaders to argue amongst themselves. The Revolutionary Noble makes his case first ("The Guiding Of The Masses"), with backing by the socialists in the militia, arguing that his education and background give him the best claim to leading the cause to victory, the very picture of puffed-up self-seriousness. The Radical Socialite makes her case second ("To Love Lady Liberty"), with backing from the Social Radicals and Jacobins in the crowd, in a somewhat bawdy ballad allegorically comparing her style of leadership to wooing a fine woman. Finally, the Liberal Soldier steps up, making his case ("To March To The Tune Of The Market"), which, of course, finds backing from the liberals, talking about how the Liberal Party is the most militant and revolutionary of the lot of them, and thus is the natural leader of the Revolution. Just as it seems the three are about to come to blows, a diplomat from the Republic arrives ("A Friend From The West"), standing atop the barricade. She throws down arms to the militia, and urges them to stand steadfast ("Hold, Hamburg, Hold!"), as Prussian soldiers approach the city.

The Prussian soldiers appear at the bottom of the barricade, calling for Hamburg to surrender, led by the Representative from the Confederation ("Surrender And Die"). With the approach of the soldiers of Prussia, the militia flies into a panic, with the Revolutionary Noble and Liberal Soldier both falling into a deep depression at the sight of such disunity ("We're Doomed!"). However, the Radical Socialite rallies them, and the Militia, to the defense of Hamburg, at the thought of, for the Noble, his estate being despoiled by Prussian invaders before it can be expropriated to the people, and for the Soldier, the thought of Prussian invaders quartering in innocent private businesses ("The Sheer Indignity!"). In a grand all-cast display of technical work, with a real antique cannon used, the Hamburg defenders resoundingly defeat the Prussian regulars ("The United Front"), throwing them out of the city and capturing the Confederation Representative.

The Republic Representative arrives to congratulate them on their victory, as Republican Soldiers march into Hamburg, with a special thanks to the Radical Socialite ("To Love Lady Liberty (Reprise)", then spiriting her off-stage. The Revolutionary Noble and Liberal Soldier find consolation in their defeat at leading the city together, choosing to exit together and enlist in the Republic's army as comrades ("Find New Life In The Landwehr"). The show concludes with the cast returning to the stage as the Republic's flag is raised over Hamburg ("Red, Gold, and Black! (Reprise)").​
 
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As the war rages on, and the brave forces of Germany, Italy, and Spain face off against the absolutist regimes of Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Romania, on the home front, life continues on, and morale must be kept up! As such, the Hamburg Actors Cooperative Troupe is proud to present, a German Comic Opera in all its glory…


The Five Weeks War

(Inspired heavily by Gilbert and Sullivan's comic operas, as well as the stage adaptation of Les Misérables)

In the city of Hamburg, revolution has broken out in the streets! The stage opens on a grand setpiece of a barricade, upon which the entirety of the opera will take place. The main cast all take their places atop it, a motley collection of revolutionaries, liberals, and citizens of Hamburg ("Red, Gold, And Black!"), including the Revolutionary Noble, the Radical Socialite, and the Liberal Soldier, who each take it upon themselves to be the 'leaders' of the militia. The Representative of the Confederation in Hamburg, a clear parody of the Hapsburgs, with prosthetic chin and a referenced related fiancee, appears at the bottom to try and convince them to stand down ("A Return To Noble Peace"), which only enrages the masses as he seeks to appease them through promising less representation and more power for the nobility, viewing their grievances as a result of 'over-democratization'. He is chased off-stage by the unnamed members of the revolutionary militia ("We'll Show You Democracy").

With the Confederation chased out of the city, this leaves the three leaders to argue amongst themselves. The Revolutionary Noble makes his case first ("The Guiding Of The Masses"), with backing by the socialists in the militia, arguing that his education and background give him the best claim to leading the cause to victory, the very picture of puffed-up self-seriousness. The Radical Socialite makes her case second ("To Love Lady Liberty"), with backing from the Social Radicals and Jacobins in the crowd, in a somewhat bawdy ballad allegorically comparing her style of leadership to wooing a fine woman. Finally, the Liberal Soldier steps up, making his case ("To March To The Tune Of The Market"), which, of course, finds backing from the liberals, talking about how the Liberal Party is the most militant and revolutionary of the lot of them, and thus is the natural leader of the Revolution. Just as it seems the three are about to come to blows, a diplomat from the Republic arrives ("A Friend From The West"), standing atop the barricade. She throws down arms to the militia, and urges them to stand steadfast ("Hold, Hamburg, Hold!"), as Prussian soldiers approach the city.

The Prussian soldiers appear at the bottom of the barricade, calling for Hamburg to surrender, led by the Representative from the Confederation ("Surrender And Die"). With the approach of the soldiers of Prussia, the militia flies into a panic, with the Revolutionary Noble and Liberal Soldier both falling into a deep depression at the sight of such disunity ("We're Doomed!"). However, the Radical Socialite rallies them, and the Militia, to the defense of Hamburg, at the thought of, for the Noble, his estate being despoiled by Prussian invaders before it can be expropriated to the people, and for the Soldier, the thought of Prussian invaders quartering in innocent private businesses ("The Sheer Indignity!"). In a grand all-cast display of technical work, with a real antique cannon used, the Hamburg defenders resoundingly defeat the Prussian regulars ("The United Front"), throwing them out of the city and capturing the Confederation Representative.

The Republic Representative arrives to congratulate them on their victory, as Republican Soldiers march into Hamburg, with a special thanks to the Radical Socialite ("To Love Lady Liberty (Reprise)", then spiriting her off-stage. The Revolutionary Noble and Liberal Soldier find consolation in their defeat at leading the city together, choosing to exit together and enlist in the Republic's army as comrades ("Find New Life In The Landwehr"). The show concludes with the cast returning to the stage as the Republic's flag is raised over Hamburg ("Red, Gold, and Black! (Reprise)").​

I like it, but doesn't Germany in this timeline use Red Gold and Green for its flag?
 
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