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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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Fingon888 said:
Rejecting Greek and Serbian entry is morally bankrupt and totally betraying the foundations of a German Republic formed on the principles of nationalism. It's imposing modern left wing views on the views of left wing people of the 19th century. The anti-nationalism of the socialist movement would not have developed if German nationalism had stayed as a left wing movement rather than be replaced by Prussian style German nationalism. It really smacks of questers bias against Serbs really.
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I'll preface my response by noting that I'm for allying with Greece and Serbia, and I have voted as such.

"Imposing modern left wing values" is puzzling as an argument because anarchism has always been anti-nationalist. This premise also ignores the progression of how the current communist movement in German came to be in the contradictions ahead of German Civil War & amod German Civil War - as well as the 20 odd years of social revolution until now. To take that position you also have to ignore how Federationist internationalism came to be in-universe as a consequence of the meeting between Quadruple Monarchy multiculturalism & social radicalism in a immigration-encouraging Germany.

Assuming any social movement will remain static, especially amid decades of social revolution, really smacks of an overly rigid application of alternate history divergences. Moreover, claiming general bias against Serbia is outright laughable nonsense when questers shying away from allying with monarchies is an easier explanation.

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<o>U<o> said:
Also we just did diplomacy to let off the monarchial Scandinavians easy, not to mention our arrangements with the bourgeois Entente, so let's cut the 'b-b-but they're monarchies!!!'. We've worked and compromised with more decadent nations (hell, a fair few of us voted to negotiate with Russia) so let's not pull purity now.
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FWIW some questers don't see as much to gain here vs those 2 scenarios, but IMO this argument makes much more sense in support of the co-belligerence case than the above. I lean somewhat to this take and to Zimmerwald's reasoning for temporarily allying with Serbia & Greece by the precedent of us doing similar alignment with Italy for the 5 Week War.
 
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Fingon888 said:
Rejecting Greek and Serbian entry is morally bankrupt and totally betraying the foundations of a German Republic formed on the principles of nationalism. It's imposing modern left wing views on the views of left wing people of the 19th century. The anti-nationalism of the socialist movement would not have developed if German nationalism had stayed as a left wing movement rather than be replaced by Prussian style German nationalism. It really smacks of questers bias against Serbs really.
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This is so desperately missing the point the people who don't want to ally with the serbs and greeks are making, it has literally less than nothing to do with the fact they are serbs or greeks and everything to do with the fact they are monarchist powers. The idea that allying and protecting monarchist powers goes against the foundation of the german republic is straight false, a very sizable portion of the very people who made this republic are no shit The terror style Jacobins who's entire political ideology can almost but not quite be entirely summarized as "Anything but a crown, and anything with a crown must die with that crown."
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

Changed my mind, we rejected that ceasefire for a reason
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
I think the risk of the Serbian and Greek kingdoms committing ethnonationalist atrocities is real, but probably one we could mitigate. Allying with monarchies is also an issue, but I'm not too worried about making a very temporary alliance of convenience with them against other, more powerful monarchies.

Personally, I'm voting to decline their offer because:
1. I'm skeptical of how helpful it would actually be, militarily. They're demanding that we send two whole Italian legions to Greece, to fight their way through yet more mountains (just how bad will the supply lines be?), because they would desperately need them to save Serbia from its encirclement by hostile powers. I'm skeptical that this cost is worth the benefit of them opening up a minor front (alongside the Serbian and Greek militaries, which are not up to Alliance standards), when those same Italian troops could be fighting directly in Austria instead, where they are (finally!) about to break through the mountains into the Carpathian Basin. Military victories and seized territory in Austria will be worth a lot more to the war effort than ones in Greece and Bulgaria.
2. Expanding the war this way would have diplomatic repercussions, and we've been burning the goodwill we got from the Scandinavian peace deal by annexing Czechia and refusing to negotiate with the League. It'll take time for the Entente to start intervening, but we should try to slow that down enough to seize as much as possible of Prussia, the Baltics, and the Austrian Empire in general.
 
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[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
Silver Gambit said:
This is so desperately missing the point the people who don't want to ally with the serbs and greeks are making, it has literally less than nothing to do with the fact they are serbs or greeks and everything to do with the fact they are monarchist powers. The idea that allying and protecting monarchist powers goes against the foundation of the german republic is straight false, a very sizable portion of the very people who made this republic are no shit The terror style Jacobins who's entire political ideology can almost but not quite be entirely summarized as "Anything but a crown, and anything with a crown must die with that crown."
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Well then how did any peace treaty happen with Scandinavian then or you know the deescalation of French tensions over that policeman arrest happened then, because by that logic those and other things could have no chance of happening at all with the Jacobins in the government?
 
Manowl said:
Well then how did any peace treaty happen with Scandinavian then or you know the deescalation of French tensions over that policeman arrest happened then, because by that logic those and other things could have no chance of happening at all with the Jacobins in the government?
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Ploys to get us more time to dismember austria and prepare for exactly this war respectively.
 
Manowl said:
Well then how did any peace treaty happen with Scandinavian then or you know the deescalation of French tensions over that policeman arrest happened then, because by that logic those and other things could have no chance of happening at all with the Jacobins in the government?
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Being edit: Jacobin-influenced doesn't mean we can't be pragmatic. There are practical concerns voters have about allowing Serbia and Greece to be our co-belligerent, namely the reallocation of Italian Legions & the diplomatic outcome of this war, tho I personally think it's worth it nevertheless.
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
Regency said:
Being edit: Jacobin-influenced doesn't mean we can't be pragmatic. There are practical concerns voters have about allowing Serbia and Greece to be our co-belligerent, namely the reallocation of Italian Legions & the diplomatic outcome of this war, tho I personally think it's worth it nevertheless.
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Ahh so it's the trying to hide the past pragmatism with a few actions and fancy political words.
 
Manowl said:
Ahh so it's the trying to hide the past pragmatism with a few actions and fancy political words.
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Oh no there's no hiding being done since there's definitely ideological motivations too. That pragmatism was done in service of political-ideological aims, instead I argue it's the appearance of pragmatism to obscure the German government's ideological goals.
 
Pragmatism is when you send a million troops from an important front where we just broke through the mountains to an undersupplied, borderline irrelevant front so they can uselessly bash their heads against more mountains, all for the sake of getting armies that aren't up to our standard into the war a couple of turns earlier.
 
[X] Plan: Case East Prussia
-[X] Accept
-[X] Strengthen defensive positions in Austria.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.
 
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Captain_Deegan said:
Pragmatism is when you send a million troops from an important front where we just broke through the mountains to an undersupplied, borderline irrelevant front so they can uselessly bash their heads against more mountains, all for the sake of getting armies that aren't up to our standard into the war a couple of turns earlier.
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By this point it's not about there armies it's about getting there foot in the German doorway by the looks of it.
 
[X]Plan Give War a Chance
-[X] Accept.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

Edited plan to give war a chance as it has higher chances of winning.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by EinPigeon on Jul 2, 2023 at 6:53 AM, finished with 231 posts and 73 votes.
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Sorry for the double post, it's looking like a decline from these results here.
 
Whenyouseeyou said:
Not when it's one that can influence those that have hate towards us so we can use this to influence parties slowly making them progressive or well influence more ideas in the idea of a club because that was how the Illuminati did it or those that discussed things like the car back then
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This just... Doesn't work. We're not going to sway the world's elites because our program is their abolition.

You'll have better luck organizing the poorest parts of their society to cast them down. Which we're already doing.

Fingon888 said:
Rejecting Greek and Serbian entry is morally bankrupt and totally betraying the foundations of a German Republic formed on the principles of nationalism. It's imposing modern left wing views on the views of left wing people of the 19th century. The anti-nationalism of the socialist movement would not have developed if German nationalism had stayed as a left wing movement rather than be replaced by Prussian style German nationalism. It really smacks of questers bias against Serbs really.
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They're not just nationalists, they're conservative monarchist nationalists? We're happy with Polish nationalists because they're republican revolutionaries, we're unhappy with Greek and Serb nationalists because they're cringe monarchist bootlickers.

German nationalism retaining a left wing position means it'll retain the ability to recognize nationalism that clearly doesn't share that position.
 
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"We finally managed to cross the Alps..."
"Congratulations! Now we're sending you to the Balkans."
"Vaffanculo!"

There's no ceasefire stopping us, and we finally managed to link with our Allies. We should be able to keep the pressure on both Russia and Austria, as long as those Italian Legions stay where we need them right now.

[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
SilentSpaniard said:
"We finally managed to cross the Alps..."
"Congratulations! Now we're sending you to the Balkans."
"Vaffanculo!"

There's no ceasefire stopping us, and we finally managed to link with our Allies. We should be able to keep the pressure on both Russia and Austria, as long as those Italian Legions stay where we need them right now.

[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas
-[X] Decline
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Zagreb (Purple).
-[X] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
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They can run but it's Italy's fate to not fight against men but mountains just want until it finds them again.
 
[X] Plan: Advance along the Seas

I would honestly prefer the Ottomans over Greece and Serbia. At least they have a radical wing of the party in government over there that might overthrow the Sultan later.
 
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