Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[] Plan Lore and Metal, Windfall Edition. (ft. Red Riders)
Switching, cause yeah that particular mapping isn't the most important part of the project
Also approval voting:
[X] Plan Codifying and Swords
and switching to just codifying and swords :V
 
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It looks like we haven't gone down to 2 work-related actions since Turn 26. That's actually more recent than I thought, but at the same time that's long enough for me to be comfortably calling it a longstanding trend - it's over 3 years ago, now.

Sure, but also consider that there was a pretty constant justification for the heavy action commitment at the start of the Waystone project under the idea that, "we're just getting started now and need to have our nose to the grindstone for a while to ensure this gets off to a good start".

Well, at this point we're quite well established and things are ticking along nicely so that's not really the case anymore. It does though rather ironically illustrate my point that you can't really expect the arguments made years ago to actually hold much water in present day.
 
I'll be perfectly honest, I don't even care at this point whether you don't want to do the Apparition binding right now or not. I think it's completely fair to have reservations about doing that right now and the action commitment we may have. What I find worrying, however, is the thread's insistence, at least from what I see argument wise, that we have to be doing three actions all the time. This is part of a worrying trend that is likely to keep pushing back personal projects that many of us have been wanting to progress for IRL years now.

You don't want to do Apparitions right now? Fine with me. But I'm a bit scared at how the discussion is going if this is the pattern we're starting to build. I want Mathilde to be able to take some time off every now and then to work on herself and her personal projects. It's not like we're exceptionally behind on whatever schedule we're setting up. By any metric, we've progressed more in our research than anyone who has any idea how monumental this project is would expect. We have three tributary types ready and we're already starting to deploy them. If we stopped here our project would be considered a success, even if it is on simply a small scale. We are not stopping here, obviously, but we are well on our way to having reasonable outcomes.

We can afford to work on personal projects.
 
My only objection to the apparition binding is that it is the heavily armored horseperson instead of shadowy assassin types.
The justification behind it is that we already have exceptional abilities at killing someone through surprise. We lack in the confrontation department, at least in the sense that almost everytime we almost died it was because someone was hammering us so hard we couldn't breathe. Something that can hold its own in combat and serve as a distraction is more useful than something that will likely only be a sidegrade to our existing abilities.
 
Sorry if it feels like I'm calling you out, but you demonstrate a pretty clear example of what I'm talking about with regarding the actions being evaluated differently.



The idea that we'd have to get unlucky for codifying to be more than one action has no real basis, what we've actually been told is that there's no way to know how the odds on codifying will play out, but it's a difficult task and many wizards that create spells don't end up managing to codify them.

Meanwhile the chance that whatever apparition containment method Mathilde comes up with will require getting locked into an action next turn is basically being argued about as if it's a sure thing.

That all being said, I'm not accusing the thread of being hypocritical for liking codify more than apparitions, the fact that people like one action more than another is completely normal. What I find distasteful is attempting to claim there should be basically a filtering mechanism before certain actions can be proposed in plans, as that sort of gate-keeping will never actually be neutrally implemented.
No issue with you calling me out, because I tried to present myself as someone who acts as a counter-example, primarily because if everything else is equal I would rather do apparitions than RoW, so my arguments in favor of doing RoW are not because I biased towards RoW and that thus there can be a degree of neutrality in arguing against certain actions.
Firstly I would like to argue that the absence of perfection is not a good argument to throw the whole apparatus out the window, which is what you are seeming to argue.
Secondly, even if I am being hypocritical in letting one research pass and not the other, your argument would at most convince me to let neither pass: not both, because my arguments against apparitions will still stand, but as addressed below I don't think I am being hypocritical.
Thirdly, your arguments tend to be abstract and don't actually address the counterarguments that people have brought. Your point of codifying being uncertain is the first argument I have seen you make that RoW will likely take multiple actions. For my place, I accepted pickle's view of its likely to take one action. But up until now, I had no reason to think otherwise.
On the other hand, you have not addressed apparations not taking multiple turns. You have stated that people assume we will be locked into taking action next turn. Pickle has made a strong argument for this happening (unless we want to waste the AP, which isn't ideal by any standard). Personally, I am of the view that apparations will defenitly take multiple actions. (The thread is cautious and we would need to be lucky to complete apparitions in one turn and take voluntary risks to complete apparitions in one turn: risks that can't be mitigated by a completed sword or the gambler coin, so I don't see a one turn apparition happening), but we won't necessarily be locked into apparitions, but it is a possibility. I haven't seen any arguments against this (your only one relies on the thread being uncharacteristically risk taking in matters of our soul). So in other words I view the worst case of RoW as being roughly equivalent to the best case for apparations. Thus it isn't hypocritical to be accepting of RoW, while wishing to delay apparations.
I do acknowledge that the conversation at the beginning could have the appearance of hypocrisy, but given the later clarification people have made of the two research proposals being substantially different, I think that charge has been addressed.
Lastly, we need to have degree of filtering on which plans we vote on: otherwise everyone would vote for every plan.
You have a different filter than I do, with yours I think being more focused on the immediate turn as opposed to turns in the future. But I think I have done my best to filter in a consistent manner.

Edit: Based on arguments I am not opposed to doing only 2 waystone actions occasionally, however my objections to doing apparitions currently still stand. I will say that the one benefit of doing mapping in particular is that it allows us to work on waystones and still trigger webmat.
 
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I'll be perfectly honest, I don't even care at this point whether you don't want to do the Apparition binding right now or not. I think it's completely fair to have reservations about doing that right now and the action commitment we may have. What I find worrying, however, is the thread's insistence, at least from what I see argument wise, that we have to be doing three actions all the time. This is part of a worrying trend that is likely to keep pushing back personal projects that many of us have been wanting to progress for IRL years now.
I think some people have the bolded bit as a rule they like, and speak in favour of it with a notable amount of determination. Because it's conceptually very easy to understand.

I see what you see, but... I don't think[1] it the position is held by a large number of posters, and the blatant arbitrariness of 'three actions' makes it an easy rule to successfully argue against if anyone's argument against a particular set of actions relies on adhering to that 'rule'.

Annoying to have to do so each turn, and I'd prefer if such arguments were never needed, but I don't feel it likely that there'll be a culture shift to the point where the assumption is 'must have three actions out of [these set of actions]' and any plans not following that are reflexively disregarded.
Of course it is possible that preventing such a zeitgeist requires the current pattern of consistent pushback against the intellectually lazy top down 'must be three' idea, which is kinda frustrating, ngl

[1] Source: my belly feels happier if this is true
 
I prioritize RoW more than apparitions, because while both are potential novel and useful additions to the grey colleges spellbook, RoW could massively shift the strategic calculus with the fog bridge.
 
Whenever the idea of going below 3 actions in a turn has been floated before, it's been shot down because so long as we do 3 actions we're insulated from any possible blowback if things don't go well.

Blowback that was tricky for Magister Weber to manage (and outright dangerous for Journeywoman Weber) can be simply brushed off by Lady Magister Mathilde Weber.

I do fear that portions of the thread are still viewing obligations from the junior wizard angle rather than from the uniquely powerful and influential member of the College leadership position that Mathilde currently occupies.

It looks like we haven't gone down to 2 work-related actions since Turn 26. That's actually more recent than I thought, but at the same time that's long enough for me to be comfortably calling it a longstanding trend - it's over 3 years ago, now.

That's what 8 in quest years? Quite a while at any rate.
 
I prioritize RoW more than apparitions, because while both are potential novel and useful additions to the grey colleges spellbook, RoW could massively shift the strategic calculus with the fog bridge.
Not really a strategic shift, just a economic and diplomatic one. The bridge wouldn't allow any side to use it militarily against the other because (i hope) we construct it such that you need both sides of the bridge cooperating to work.
 
Lastly, we need to have degree of filtering on which plans we vote on: otherwise everyone would vote for every plan.

Sorry for not going through your entire argument, to be honest I'm getting kind of tired of the whole discussion. Most of it is not really relevant to my key point though, which is this. Yes, we as individuals naturally will have selection criteria that we use to evaluate plans. What I don't like is people trying to impose their idea of proper selection criteria onto the thread as a whole as if it is something we should all abide by or is simply the standard use case, decreeing "Only when we do this can we in good conscience do that" very much rubs me the wrong way.

The whole discussion I've had with you and others where people talk about why they believe Codify is a completely different category than Apparitions in regard to starting something new exactly illustrates why that kind of universal standard would never work.
 
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I am one of the voters that prefers having 3 actions on the main job, but my reasoning for that partially has to do with the fact that between the branch college the library and spy network one of these actions is almost guaranteed to be a half action.

If we counted WEB-MAT actions as the 0.5 AP with some restrictions that they are, my preferrence would come out as an average of 2 AP on the main job per turn.
 
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It does still illustrate why I don't actually believe in these kind of ideas in quests though. You'd basically need some neutral governing body to try to enforce this kind of thing, which is a ludicrous expectation. So whenever people bring stuff like this up or the perennial, we'll get it done later idea. I don't view those things as having any kind of binding effect on future voting behavior, because it's impossible for them to do so. Maybe in a quest with a much smaller number of voters it could happen, but not in one of this size. So regardless of whether the voter actually means it at the time, they can neither speak for the hundreds of other voters in the thread, or even for their own position when faced with decisions potentially months or years in the future.
In fairness, the quest has a good track record of this. Remember Tongs? It got put off and put off because there were more urgent priorities, with the promise to do it after Karag Dum, and then we did. And that was an action that was actively opposed by a lot of people because they didn't think it was worth Mathilde's time (myself being one of them), as opposed to Apparitions, a thing which even the vast majority of the people voting against the plan doing them now do, in fact, want to do! Just not right now, because having to pay an AP next turn (if it turns out that we have no wiggle-room on the binding) would suck.
And two is a third, also a good sense number for work. 8 hours work 8 hours free time 8 hours sleep.
I feel the need to point out that this example runs directly counter to the thing you mean to say and supports the argument to which you're responding: of 16 waking hours, your example divides them 50:50 between work and leisure. We don't have to budget 2 of Mathilde's AP for sleep every turn, we're only scheduling her waking hours.
 
Your point of codifying being uncertain is the first argument I have seen you make that RoW will likely take multiple actions. For my place, I accepted pickle's view of its likely to take one action. But up until now, I had no reason to think otherwise.
Now I am confused. I thought the point behind doing the codification right now was so that we start actually building the fog bridge in follow up actions and that's the reason it got so much interest this turn. So it's at least (1) action to codify plus the follow up action(s) to actually build the thing or contract someone to build it, and the argument against Apparitions in comparison was that we were locked into the follow up. If we aren't planning on building the fog bridge , what's the sudden rush to codify the bridge?
Do people actually plan to codify it now and then not take the follow up options that will unlock?
If not, it feels disingenuous to sell it as a one AP action in comparison to the Apparitions.
Although there are some people that just like the bridge for itself (which I respect, magical theory is lit but i prefer apparitions), the most planning posts actually sold it as prerequisite for something else.
 
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It's worth bearing in mind, too, that while Waystones is her current lead job, it's not her only job. All of the half-actions spent overseeing KAU and the EIC are also work actions.

It's a minority sentiment to be sure, but I have seen condemnation here and there of Mathilde "only spending two months out of six working", which is a little unfair.
 
Now I am confused. I thought the point behind doing the codification right now was so that we start actually building the fog bridge in follow up actions and that's the reason it got so much interest this turn. So it's at least (1) action to codify plus the follow up action(s) to actually build the thing or contract someone to build it, and the argument against Apparitions in comparison was that we were locked into the follow up. If we aren't planning on building the fog bridge , what's the sudden rush to codify the bridge?
Do people actually plan to codify it now and then not take the follow up options that will unlock?
Although there are some people that just like the bridge for itself (which I respect, magical theory is lit but i prefer apparitions), the most planning posts actually sold it as prerequisite for something else.
I was talking about myself personally. As I have stated before if next turn we vote to spend AP on building a bridge I will vote against it (unless someone can persuade me otherwise).
 
Now I am confused. I thought the point behind doing the codification right now was so that we start actually building the fog bridge in follow up actions and that's the reason it got so much interest this turn. So it's at least (1) action to codify plus the follow up action(s) to actually build the thing or contract someone to build it, and the argument against Apparitions in comparison was that we were locked into the follow up. If we aren't planning on building the fog bridge , what's the sudden rush to codify the bridge?
Do people actually plan to codify it now and then not take the follow up options that will unlock?
Although there are some people that just like the bridge for itself (which I respect, magical theory is lit but i prefer apparitions), the most planning posts actually sold it as prerequisite for something else.
The bridge isn't personal AP, it's an EIC action. If it cost personal AP, people would be way less into it, but the point of codifying it is so that it becomes something that other wizards can do, not just Mathilde. So we codify it for the Greys and then get the negotiations in place to have it built to connect Laurelorn to the Empire for trade, but Mathilde herself doesn't need to spend her time on that. Just an EIC action, which aren't exactly hotly disputed.
 
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