Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

01paradox01 said:

*snip*

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You could try to read the post I'm quoting which advocated the maintenanceof "a little" economic inequality to benefit the many re:underclass.

On the vouchers, you could read up on a few people's abbreviated explanations & illustrating comparisons about it in this very thread about how it differs from paper money, since I assume you've missed all of them to still come to the conclusion rhat it's the exactsame as our current Paper Mark. Plus I don't really feel like reiterating for the third time.

iceman66 said:

also, how does things like loans work in a labour voucher economy? and why are we even equalizing pay for different work?, we are just creating incentives to keep people inefficient.

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Going with diferential pay with a thousand different incentives is what the soviet union did and it was unweildy as all get out. Not worth it.

As a member of the communist ultra left internal opposition, I would like to present that the primary enemy of the revolution at home, the remnents of capitalism, are infact not being defeated over time, but growing! The twin vile scourges of Revolutionary Germany, the yeoman family business and the cooperative, are only increasing in strength over time! I call for the communists to take a stand against these capitalist enterprises and immediatly begin collectivization and nationalization of all enterprises, so that they may be held by the working class as a whole, and not a few members of the "working class" individually

[] Cooperative Party
-[] Plan Cooperative Buyouts
--[] Build up our telecommunications network to reach every local town hall, planning office and production sites. Leverage those new communications to enable more participative planning, both for identifying demand and fulfilling it.
--[] Establish communally operated and owned "libraries" of goods that do not need to be owned by individuals but can instead be shared to improve everyone's access to uncommon goods.
--[] Increase the secret provision of funding, arms and ideological support to the rebels in Korea, using pre-existing channels and with an emphasis on keeping the revolt anti-monarchist and truly revolutionary. Cooperate with Chinese and Japanese covert efforts if they exist to the extent it doesn't undermine revolutionary ideals.
--[] Offer to help support the US in its trying time. Buy out failing businesses to cooperatize them, as part of our coop federations if possible or simply under their American workers if not. Offer no interest loans to the US Federal Government and sympathetic State Governments if they adopt our legal forms concerning coop organizational recognition.
--[] Ultimately if one merely breaks up hierarchies between institutions but leaves them within them, the job is not even half done. Begin pilot programs experimenting with less hierarchical organization within school, and with alternate means of teaching than the more traditional rote learning so common even in good schools.
--[] Set up cooperation between farmers, biology researchers and tooling engineers to continually improve on agriculture, fishing and land management. Aim to produce long term planning for sustainability and preservation of nature alongside production.

This is my prefered variation of the coop plan. It has the coop expansion one higher to make it more likely to pass.

Ultrackius said:

As a member of the communist ultra left internal opposition, I would like to present that the primary enemy of the revolution at home, the remnents of capitalism, are infact not being defeated over time, but growing! The twin vile scourges of Revolutionary Germany, the yeoman family business and the cooperative, are only increasing in strength over time! I call for the communists to take a stand against these capitalist enterprises and immediatly begin collectivization and nationalization of all enterprises, so that they may be held by the working class as a whole, and not a few members of the "working class" individually

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I don't necessarily disagree, but down this road lies permanent opposition, as no other party would ever consent to growing the common property at the expense of their special interest (which is why programs up until now have attempted to reserve new sectors to the common property). Are you copacetic with that outcome?

@Aranfan rather than interest free loans it is better to have low interest loans which can be invested in us. Also maybe you can highlight focus towards poor white, African Americans and native Americans as main recipients of such aids.

SouvikKundu said:

@Aranfan rather than interest free loans it is better to have low interest loans which can be invested in us. Also maybe you can highlight focus towards poor white, African Americans and native Americans as main recipients of such aids.

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The only reason to make it low interest instead of no interest is if they decide that no interest loans are charity and refuse it out of pride.

Aranfan said:

The only reason to make it low interest instead of no interest is if they decide that no interest loans are charity and refuse it out of pride.

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Maybe Low interest for more upper or middle class while no interest for those under poverty line?

SouvikKundu said:

Maybe Low interest for more upper or middle class while no interest for those under poverty line?

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... We aren't offering loans to americans, we're offering loans to the state and federal government.

Aranfan said:

... We aren't offering loans to americans, we're offering loans to the state and federal government.

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In case of federal government there must low interest loans rather than no interest. Maybe no interest can used for more targeted population under proverty line using various socialist organizations in us.

Zimmerwald1915 said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but down this road lies permanent opposition, as no other party would ever consent to growing the common property at the expense of their special interest (which is why programs up until now have attempted to reserve new sectors to the common property). Are you copacetic with that outcome?

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Should we really sacrifice our principles in the name of governing for the sake of governing? We see, continuously, that Second Revolution has not been transformative enough. We see the compromises of it haunt us. The pro-capitalist elements exist in hundred permutations and, in absense of terror, there can be no end to their remakings. It may be time to become opposition, to take goals unacceptable to localists, and cooperativists, and yeoman obsessed liberals. Maybe it is time for us to become as radical as reality itself.

You see how the so called "Communists" openly conspire against worker's rule in favor of totalitarian state capitalism! Further more, you see how the controlled opposition of the so-called "cooperative" party fails to offer even token resistance to the bureaucrat's designs, choosing localize oppression rather than abolish it entirely! Comrades, if the republic is to survive, we must resist with all our strength the nationalization of industries, and ensure that every effort is bent towards putting every industry under direct worker's control. This is vital for the destruction of the bureaucratic class and the achievement of the withering away of the state.

Reminder to keep discussions out-of-character, civil, and constructive.

Regency said:

Coops are capitalist entities with a profit motive seeking victory in competition. When IRL Mondragon coop got the chance to benefit from lower wage labour in the Global South, they did not make them part of their coop free association structure. A coop is a kinder capitalist enterprise, but capitalist nonetheless. This mindset placing our economic aims to the altar of efficiency & productivity is exactly why your vision of "anarchism" is ultimately still capitalist.

Moreover, abolutely not to your proposed willing stratification of German society & keeping an underclass. The aim of both Communist & the anarchist wing of the Cooperatives is to eventually be able to eliminate these capitalistic-engineered inequalities, as part to achieve communism or statelessness, not to preserve them in the name of Numbers Go Up. Your proposal instead sounds like laissez faire capitalism with worker-owned enterprises - kinder, but still easing for the destruction of egalitarian aims in a rat race to the bottom that spoils your own stated goal for the working classes to transcend the chains of necessity to do work.

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On that note there is a path for cooperative businesses in our system to be refashioned into cooperative labor efforts that does not have profit motive as its main objective - though their form could vary by being local community-based, worker council-based, industrial union-based, civic institution-based, etc and their conception would depend on what gradual conception of a moneyless system is used - in our case labor vouchers, but that's not the only proposed solution IRL (others may know more about that) & I imagine there's a number of counter-proposals for abolition of currency in the 2nd Republic among both Communists, Cooperatives, & maybe Federationists (who probably thinks it in a World Republic framework).

Ultrackius said:

As a member of the communist ultra left internal opposition, I would like to present that the primary enemy of the revolution at home, the remnents of capitalism, are infact not being defeated over time, but growing! The twin vile scourges of Revolutionary Germany, the yeoman family business and the cooperative, are only increasing in strength over time! I call for the communists to take a stand against these capitalist enterprises and immediatly begin collectivization and nationalization of all enterprises, so that they may be held by the working class as a whole, and not a few members of the "working class" individually

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The yeoman family business will wither away after we make the family an obsolete concept, Comrade.

I'm pretty sure I already pushed through a plank to let cooperatives associate with planning offices to move from selling on the market to executing parts of the democratic plan as part of the voucher system. I'm pretty sure it passed and I'm getting tired of people arguing we're doing one thing they think is bad when we're clearly doing another thing that's closer to what they want even if it's not exactly the form they have in mind. I can't speak for those representing the yeomanry and even if you could apply such a system to them, I think inheritance would remain a worrying component, but they've never really been in the Coop Party base.

- Set up a system of association between individual coops and local planning or federation of coops and national planning to make it possible for our autonomous producers to execute parts of planned production and fit into the voucher transition program.

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The idea that we as a party or our base in coops are hostile to reorganizing the economy away from what remains of capitalist practices is just untrue. If people want to accelerate the pace, I'm totally willing to work with them, because as you can see from the planks I pushed, I'm invested in creating the necessary interfaces between local and cooperative systems and the planning apparatus that will let us move away from those remnants. It's possible more market influenced parts of the party will try to contest leadership of it in the future but if that happens I'll argue for splitting it, because my vision is trying to steer towards more local participative systems and reward self organization of workers where it exists, not to retain structures inherited from capitalism.

The fact some people can't distinguish between friends with slightly different approaches and enemies is very worrying for the republic. The republic is surrounded by foes and a world still dominated by capital but exactly how local or central our efforts to decommodify our economy are is what they think is capitalist action? I also have the same words for those who think all central government actions are hostile too. Both side can work in a comradely manner, as past assemblies have shown.

After all, having two competing parties both dedicated to securing some form of socialist economy is how you ensure there's no option to backslide, as people who protest any flaw in one approach will just seek the other. The American way to protect a system

grimely said:

The yeoman family business will wither away after we make the family an obsolete concept, Comrade.

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I think the family will never be an obsolete concept, just the family as an institution.

DanBaque said:

I think the family will never be an obsolete concept, just the family as an institution.

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Yeah but abolishing legal recognition for the institution would do the yeomanry in by dealing away with inheritance. The yeomanry is fundamentally resting on the state recognizing the family institution.

Nyvis said:

Yeah but abolishing legal recognition for the institution would do the yeomanry in by dealing away with inheritance. The yeomanry is fundamentally resting on the state recognizing the family institution.

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Yeah, the abolition of inheritance would mean the abolition of family farms.

Vote's open

[x] Cooperative Party
-[x] Plan Cooperative Buyouts
--[x] Build up our telecommunications network to reach every local town hall, planning office and production sites. Leverage those new communications to enable more participative planning, both for identifying demand and fulfilling it.
--[x] Establish communally operated and owned "libraries" of goods that do not need to be owned by individuals but can instead be shared to improve everyone's access to uncommon goods.
--[x] Increase the secret provision of funding, arms and ideological support to the rebels in Korea, using pre-existing channels and with an emphasis on keeping the revolt anti-monarchist and truly revolutionary. Cooperate with Chinese and Japanese covert efforts if they exist to the extent it doesn't undermine revolutionary ideals.
--[x] Offer to help support the US in its trying time. Buy out failing businesses to cooperatize them, as part of our coop federations if possible or simply under their American workers if not. Offer no interest loans to the US Federal Government and sympathetic State Governments if they adopt our legal forms concerning coop organizational recognition.
--[x] Ultimately if one merely breaks up hierarchies between institutions but leaves them within them, the job is not even half done. Begin pilot programs experimenting with less hierarchical organization within school, and with alternate means of teaching than the more traditional rote learning so common even in good schools.
--[x] Set up cooperation between farmers, biology researchers and tooling engineers to continually improve on agriculture, fishing and land management. Aim to produce long term planning for sustainability and preservation of nature alongside production.

[x] Communist Party
-[x] Plan: The Communist Party Unity Program of 1895
--[x] Further build out electrical and communications infrastructure under state ownership in accordance with a central plan incorporating local input, while improving the productivity of state and cooperative mines and fabricators to support the build-out.
--[x] Offer the United States support to recover from and reform in the aftermath of its depression: low-interest loans from the International Development Bank to the states, and no-interest loans to the federal government; buyouts of failing business by German cooperatives offering American workers equal shares in the amalgamated firms allowing them to maintain their jobs; and model legislation on railway nationalization.
--[x] Continue funding the military infrastructure and fortification program. In this stage emphasis should be on expanding and fortifying logistical nodes and axes of movement supporting third-line and interior positions.
--[x] Embark on a renewed program of naval expansion, aiming at command of the Baltic Sea by matching or exceeding the tonnage of the combined Russian Baltic, and Scandinavian, fleets.
--[x] Recognize the Jeonju government as the government of Korea with sovereign authority to maintain, repudiate, or renegotiate its international obligations; and invite such elements of its leadership as accept the International Revolutionary Association's membership criteria to apply to that body for affiliation, with attendant benefits.
--[x] Support efforts to raise socialist and republican consciousness and capabilities, particularly in the Russian Empire and Scandinavia. Special emphasis is to be given toward mobilizing groups who are structurally oppressed (e.g. women, national and religious minorities, impoverished laborers).

[x] Communist Party
-[x] Plan: The Communist Party Unity Program of 1895
--[x] Further build out electrical and communications infrastructure under state ownership in accordance with a central plan incorporating local input, while improving the productivity of state and cooperative mines and fabricators to support the build-out.
--[x] Offer the United States support to recover from and reform in the aftermath of its depression: low-interest loans from the International Development Bank to the states, and no-interest loans to the federal government; buyouts of failing business by German cooperatives offering American workers equal shares in the amalgamated firms allowing them to maintain their jobs; and model legislation on railway nationalization.
--[x] Continue funding the military infrastructure and fortification program. In this stage emphasis should be on expanding and fortifying logistical nodes and axes of movement supporting third-line and interior positions.
--[x] Embark on a renewed program of naval expansion, aiming at command of the Baltic Sea by matching or exceeding the tonnage of the combined Russian Baltic, and Scandinavian, fleets.
--[x] Recognize the Jeonju government as the government of Korea with sovereign authority to maintain, repudiate, or renegotiate its international obligations; and invite such elements of its leadership as accept the International Revolutionary Association's membership criteria to apply to that body for affiliation, with attendant benefits.
--[x] Support efforts to raise socialist and republican consciousness and capabilities, particularly in the Russian Empire and Scandinavia. Special emphasis is to be given toward mobilizing groups who are structurally oppressed (e.g. women, national and religious minorities, impoverished laborers).

[x] Cooperative Party
-[x] Plan Cooperative Buyouts
--[x] Build up our telecommunications network to reach every local town hall, planning office and production sites. Leverage those new communications to enable more participative planning, both for identifying demand and fulfilling it.
--[x] Establish communally operated and owned "libraries" of goods that do not need to be owned by individuals but can instead be shared to improve everyone's access to uncommon goods.
--[x] Increase the secret provision of funding, arms and ideological support to the rebels in Korea, using pre-existing channels and with an emphasis on keeping the revolt anti-monarchist and truly revolutionary. Cooperate with Chinese and Japanese covert efforts if they exist to the extent it doesn't undermine revolutionary ideals.
--[x] Offer to help support the US in its trying time. Buy out failing businesses to cooperatize them, as part of our coop federations if possible or simply under their American workers if not. Offer no interest loans to the US Federal Government and sympathetic State Governments if they adopt our legal forms concerning coop organizational recognition.
--[x] Ultimately if one merely breaks up hierarchies between institutions but leaves them within them, the job is not even half done. Begin pilot programs experimenting with less hierarchical organization within school, and with alternate means of teaching than the more traditional rote learning so common even in good schools.
--[x] Set up cooperation between farmers, biology researchers and tooling engineers to continually improve on agriculture, fishing and land management. Aim to produce long term planning for sustainability and preservation of nature alongside production.

I'll take the version that raises the profile of the American relief effort, I think it's fair to use the opportunity. If we don't get our education program through we can keep pushing later.

[x] Cooperative Party
-[x] The Food Security Act Of 1895
--[x] Work with the local councils of riverine and coastal communities to better understand our fish stocks. As good socialists we know that we must preserve our fish stocks to preserve the livelihoods of coastal workers, unlike the reckless capitalists who consume ever more greedily.

--[x] Work with ecologists, cooks, and local councils around the country to discover alternative or underutilised food stocks, and learn how to incorporate these items into local recipes. Publish the findings in an easily understandable book so that people can learn how to gather more food from hunting and scavenging when necessary.

--[x] Build up our telecommunications network to reach every local town hall, planning office and production sites. Leverage those new communications to enable more participative planning, both for identifying demand and fulfilling it.

--[x] Using the latest technology and a range of familiar local recipes, work on improving army rations. Apply any lessons learned from this towards building up a food stockpile so that there will never again be a time of hunger in german-administered land.

--[x] Offer to help support the US in its trying time. Buy out failing businesses to cooperatize them, as part of our coop federations if possible or simply under their American workers if not. Offer no interest loans to the US Federal Government and sympathetic State Governments if they adopt our legal forms concerning coop organizational recognition.

--[x] Recognize the Jeonju government as the government of Korea with sovereign authority to maintain, repudiate, or renegotiate its international obligations; and invite such elements of its leadership as accept the International Revolutionary Association's membership criteria to apply to that body for affiliation, with attendant benefits.

Swapped out the bottom two policies to give approval to the international struggle. People have been plotting better communalisation planks on Discord that we can do next turn and we don't need the roads yet.

[x] Communist Party
-[x] Plan: The Communist Party Unity Program of 1895
--[x] Further build out electrical and communications infrastructure under state ownership in accordance with a central plan incorporating local input, while improving the productivity of state and cooperative mines and fabricators to support the build-out.
--[x] Offer the United States support to recover from and reform in the aftermath of its depression: low-interest loans from the International Development Bank to the states, and no-interest loans to the federal government; buyouts of failing business by German cooperatives offering American workers equal shares in the amalgamated firms allowing them to maintain their jobs; and model legislation on railway nationalization.
--[x] Continue funding the military infrastructure and fortification program. In this stage emphasis should be on expanding and fortifying logistical nodes and axes of movement supporting third-line and interior positions.
--[x] Embark on a renewed program of naval expansion, aiming at command of the Baltic Sea by matching or exceeding the tonnage of the combined Russian Baltic, and Scandinavian, fleets.
--[x] Recognize the Jeonju government as the government of Korea with sovereign authority to maintain, repudiate, or renegotiate its international obligations; and invite such elements of its leadership as accept the International Revolutionary Association's membership criteria to apply to that body for affiliation, with attendant benefits.
--[x] Support efforts to raise socialist and republican consciousness and capabilities, particularly in the Russian Empire and Scandinavia. Special emphasis is to be given toward mobilizing groups who are structurally oppressed (e.g. women, national and religious minorities, impoverished laborers).