Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

Reader mode
[X] [No]

Shirou: "Ayako, I didn't help Minori just to get a girlfriend."

Ayako: "Yes, I kn-"

Shirou: "So there's no need to reward me."

Ayako: "That isn't wh-"

Shirou: "The fact that he's safe is thanks enough."

Ayako: "I'm not tr-"

Shirou: "Have a good day, citizen."
 
[X] Yes
Shirou Bride when Nasssuuu eh I mean Erien?

Let's be honest, outside of Sakura, Shirou is totally the blusing one in the relationship.

Unfortunately for Rin fans, she Is falling way behind the race for Shirou's heart (didn't even get to "heal" his "broken' heart)
 
[X] Yes

Since this is already AU she might be important unlike the og fate. Just want something unique.

Will the dates with her happen in the background for flavor? Or do we devot actions to dating her?
 
Revlid said:
[X] [No]

Shirou: "Ayako, I didn't help Minori just to get a girlfriend."

Ayako: "Yes, I kn-"

Shirou: "So there's no need to reward me."

Ayako: "That isn't wh-"

Shirou: "The fact that he's safe is thanks enough."

Ayako: "I'm not tr-"

Shirou: "Have a good day, citizen."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Shirou would get the absolute wrong idea watching Robocop.

F.I.M.M.98 said:
Unfortunately for Rin fans, she Is falling way behind the race for Shirou's heart (didn't even get to "heal" his "broken' heart)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She still has a chance, I assure you.

Darkcore41 said:
[X] Yes

Since this is already AU she might be important unlike the og fate. Just want something unique.

Will the dates with her happen in the background for flavor? Or do we devot actions to dating her?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There'll be plenty of social votes coming up once the war actually starts, much like in the original game. Remember how you had the choice to hang with Taiga or Caster? More of that, though you'll be able to pick multiple options at once.
 
Yeah...really late with this:

Glernaj said:
So uhh, I have to challenge multiple points here. 1: how is Shirou a villain? His primary driving goal going into things is to save as many people as he can, and this changes as his character develops across the three routes. 2: Kiritsugu could qualify as a villain, but is really more of an anti-hero. Vaguely noble goals, awful methods. 3: Do... do you know what a fascist is? 4: Rin is just straight up a good person who was raised by an absolutely awful person, so thinks she needs to put forward a hostile mask.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

1.

Erien said:
I'm very curious as to why people think Shirou suffers from sloth.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because there is a specific manifestation of sloth that occurs when a person just endures a set of circumstances without being willing to change them while trying to help keep as many people as possible alive. Usually a soldier in wartime who is a good comrade and warrior but is unwilling to confront the system itself that left him and his comrades on the battlefield that is killing them.

There is a difference between saving people and protecting people. Shirou will jump at any chance to save someone, but will never protect anyone, himself included, from the world or himself. This is what makes him such a tragic anti-villain. Think about all the times Shirou saves people, helps them continue existing, but never helps them to live their lives.

When has Shirou ever personally actually helped anyone, himself included, overcome their problems instead of just beating them back for a time?

2. No. Kiritsugu talks the talk of an anti-hero, but he doesn't walk the walk of an anti-hero except in the nominal hero sense since he is the POW character of Fate/Zero. Again like Shirou Kiritsugu doesn't protect anyone, but unlike Shirou he also kills people to get what he wants intentionally.

3. Which type of fascist?

2P1-nd4 said:
Fascist? Villain? Shirou? I agree that his main problem is sloth, being unable and unwilling to move past his father's death, and being unwilling to adapt his ideals. Ultimate Blade Works is this personified, allowing him to create derivative works that can overpower the original.

But I wouldn't call him a villain or fascist. Shirou is too dedicated to heroism. He's a person who always chooses to sacrifice himself for the greater good and always will fight against the greater good if it demands the sacrifice of others.

I don't say this to aggrandize him, but he is not a villain, i belive a brighter world would allow him to live up to his ideals while also helping him move on.

Would a darker world not punish for his attempted heroism?, or crush him before he could do any good?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because Shirou is a brownshirt: Someone willing to fight a war for another's ideals unquestioning because they appeal to him.

Kiritsugu on the other hand is an out right full fledged fascist who kills the other/tainted/evil to get the power to change the world to his violent liking.

4. No. Rin is someone with a veneer of being a good person, in front of herself even, but when it comes down to it she doesn't have friends. Only comrades, rivals, lovers, subordinates and superiors and , like with Shirou, Rin will save people, but she won't protect them.

Glernaj said:
I'm vaguely curious what fanfic you read and internalized as canon, because there is no canon Avenger Emiya whatsoever. EMIYA Alter is a version of Shirou that ties into Kiara Sessyouin and broke there, completely unrelated to the UBW route. And he's an Archer, not an Avenger. The only thing I could think of that comes close to an Avenger EMIYA is Angra Mainyu in F/HA, but that's not EMIYA or Shirou, that's literally just Angra Mainyu pretending to be Shirou as he uses Shirou's body. Also, Archer is always dead at the end of the UBW route. Well before the end really.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's my headcanon/persistent brainfart. As in every time I think of Emiya Alter I think of him as an Avenger even though he's still an Archer.

This is because I don't actually know that much about the guy other than killed Kiara Sessuyoin's cult in his timeline and wants her perma-dead which resulted in him walking the Path of the Heretics/Madou which makes him basically a type of Oni produced by murder which fits better in the Avenger class in my head.

Glernaj said:
I... what? So uhhh, I might be mis-remembering, but by the time Kiritsugu confronts 'Irisviel' in the 4th Grail War, Iri is straight up dead, and that's a simulacrum Angra Mainyu formed out of the grail mud. And further, you're ascribing a lot of very complex theoretical and medical competency to an assassin. Just because he has an affinity for something doesn't mean he has the knowledge of how to do it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That is exactly my point: Kiritsugu is just an Assassin. Even after he learns that his beloved wife is going to die and from what, he doesn't bother to try to learn the knowledge needed to save her life or to find someone who has it to help him. If Kiritsugu had medical knowledge or just straight up got a doctor/surgeon hired or hypnotized to help him separate the Grail from Irisviel she wouldn't have had to die.

Remember that the Holy Grail war always takes place in places with a lot of leylines so Kiritsugu had the option of at least trying to carve Irisviel's heart out and hooking her up to a leyline as a form of life support. If it had worked it probably would have resulted in an Irisviel possessed by Angra Mainyu at the end of Fate/Zero because all the leylines in Fuyuki are connected to the Grail, but Kiritsugu didn't know that and he didn't even try.

Glernaj said:
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of Shirou damning himself through Sloth, because uhh, no, that's kinda absolutely not his thing. EMIYA made a deal with Alaya because he was too motivated to keep saving people, not through apathy or laziness. As to making their own swords... when you pick up the contents of the Gate of Babylon, and all sorts of random other shit, what exactly are you going to make yourself to surpass that?

Again, there is no Avenger EMIYA, though it it sounds vaguely like you're talking about EMIYA Alter (an Archer), who condenses he reality marble into a bullet and shoots it into people, and then lets the swords explode out of it, but there's not really anything cancerous involved, and it's pretty damn targeted.


It overall reads like you read a bunch of dark fanfics and conflated those with the original source material, and it's making you take a significantly harsher view of the characters than is really justified.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Shirou himself at one point notes before fighting Gilgamesh in one of the routes that every other Servant summoned in the war would be a problem for him because they have mastered their Noble Phantasms, but Gilgamesh never mastered any of the ones in the Gate of Babylon so he can take him.

In all versions of the Fate stories it never occurs to Shirou to master any of the Noble Phantasms he has copied or to make his own. He instead makes an inferior copy of the Gate of Babylon and modifies some Noble Phantasms to serve his needs better, but he never masters any.
 
Erien said:
There'll be plenty of social votes coming up once the war actually starts, much like in the original game. Remember how you had the choice to hang with Taiga or Caster? More of that, though you'll be able to pick multiple options at once.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

multiple as in 'line up multiple items on the schedule' or multiple as in 'take multiple girls out at the same time'? Since the latter sounds hilarious with the right combination...
 
Dmol8 said:
Yeah...really late with this:



1.



Because there is a specific manifestation of sloth that occurs when a person just endures a set of circumstances without being willing to change them while trying to help keep as many people as possible alive. Usually a soldier in wartime who is a good comrade and warrior but is unwilling to confront the system itself that left him and his comrades on the battlefield that is killing them.

There is a difference between saving people and protecting people. Shirou will jump at any chance to save someone, but will never protect anyone, himself included, from the world or himself. This is what makes him such a tragic anti-villain. Think about all the times Shirou saves people, helps them continue existing, but never helps them to live their lives.

When has Shirou ever personally actually helped anyone, himself included, overcome their problems instead of just beating them back for a time?

2. No. Kiritsugu talks the talk of an anti-hero, but he doesn't walk the walk of an anti-hero except in the nominal hero sense since he is the POW character of Fate/Zero. Again like Shirou Kiritsugu doesn't protect anyone, but unlike Shirou he also kills people to get what he wants intentionally.

3. Which type of fascist?



Because Shirou is a brownshirt: Someone willing to fight a war for another's ideals unquestioning because they appeal to him.

Kiritsugu on the other hand is an out right full fledged fascist who kills the other/tainted/evil to get the power to change the world to his violent liking.

4. No. Rin is someone with a veneer of being a good person, in front of herself even, but when it comes down to it she doesn't have friends. Only comrades, rivals, lovers, subordinates and superiors and , like with Shirou, Rin will save people, but she won't protect them.



It's my headcanon/persistent brainfart. As in every time I think of Emiya Alter I think of him as an Avenger even though he's still an Archer.

This is because I don't actually know that much about the guy other than killed Kiara Sessuyoin's cult in his timeline and wants her perma-dead which resulted in him walking the Path of the Heretics/Madou which makes him basically a type of Oni produced by murder which fits better in the Avenger class in my head.



That is exactly my point: Kiritsugu is just an Assassin. Even after he learns that his beloved wife is going to die and from what, he doesn't bother to try to learn the knowledge needed to save her life or to find someone who has it to help him. If Kiritsugu had medical knowledge or just straight up got a doctor/surgeon hired or hypnotized to help him separate the Grail from Irisviel she wouldn't have had to die.

Remember that the Holy Grail war always takes place in places with a lot of leylines so Kiritsugu had the option of at least trying to carve Irisviel's heart out and hooking her up to a leyline as a form of life support. If it had worked it probably would have resulted in an Irisviel possessed by Angra Mainyu at the end of Fate/Zero because all the leylines in Fuyuki are connected to the Grail, but Kiritsugu didn't know that and he didn't even try.



Shirou himself at one point notes before fighting Gilgamesh in one of the routes that every other Servant summoned in the war would be a problem for him because they have mastered their Noble Phantasms, but Gilgamesh never mastered any of the ones in the Gate of Babylon so he can take him.

In all versions of the Fate stories it never occurs to Shirou to master any of the Noble Phantasms he has copied or to make his own. He instead makes an inferior copy of the Gate of Babylon and modifies some Noble Phantasms to serve his needs better, but he never masters any.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm all for 'death of the author' when it comes to interpretation of a work and what it means to you but this seems to more like you're making details from the work fit your preconceived ideas.

Specifically I think trying to interpret characters through political ideologies is so far off the mark that you're going to never get close to being on the same page as other readers in terms of dicussion.

This is especially true, in my opinion, due to trying to claim Shioru is a fascist. Sure one may argue at some sort of metaphorical correlation to argue Shirou is representative of how fascists think and operate. That is one thing but to say Shirou is a fascist is a diffrent thing. Shioru lacks any actual political ideology - he champions for no state or system and just wants to help people while having no self worth due to his own trauma.

Fate Stay Night seems to me, to be about how history can shape a character. Rin and her father and expectations to be the ideal mangus and the facade she holds. Sakura being giving away by her family and her self esteem issues. Shirou being raised by a man with his own issues after being the sole survivor of a massive fire and trying to pay off that survivors guiilt by helping everyone.

So yeah I think you're taking your own philosophical and ideological interests and priors and trying to make the work match them. Which you are free to do.... just don't be surprised when no one else agrees with any of your conclusions. We simply are not reading the work from the same starting assumptions.

or if you want a meme response -

'Sir, this is the Copenhagen'
 
Dmol8 said:
Shirou himself at one point notes before fighting Gilgamesh in one of the routes that every other Servant summoned in the war would be a problem for him because they have mastered their Noble Phantasms, but Gilgamesh never mastered any of the ones in the Gate of Babylon so he can take him.

In all versions of the Fate stories it never occurs to Shirou to master any of the Noble Phantasms he has copied or to make his own. He instead makes an inferior copy of the Gate of Babylon and modifies some Noble Phantasms to serve his needs better, but he never masters any.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean i'd say he mastered kanshou and bakuya considering the fact he managed to solo saber alter with them in the Sparks Liner High ending
 
Erien said:
This is Fate, shirou has many swords and many waifus.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Truer words have never been said.

Nonetheless,

[X] Yes

Originally I selected No because I didn't want to accidentally do something that would fuck us up in the future, but then I thought, 'eh, what the hell ^0^'

What's the absolute worst thing he could do in this moment, the one choice that compromises his already dogshit OPSEC and just creates more dependents that he has to protect/prevent the enemy from exploiting, while also actively worsening his relationship with some of the other Grail War participants:

Dating Ayako obv

Here's why:
- Pisses off Shinji, because he now has to face the fact that his best friend is a) dating his archnemesis, b) has more rizz that he does, c) is doing all this with a smokin' hot servant and d) is doing all this while ALSO having his sister wrapped around his finger (Shinji is an unreliable narrator, if he existed in 2015 we'd call him an incel)
-Pisses off Sakura, cause now this trollop just stole HER MAN
-Pisses off Lancer, because now no AyakoxLancer
-Puts a target on Ayako's back

TL;DR: Massive cuh moment, can't wait for the saucy slice-of-life/drama
 
Last edited:
Dmol8 said:
Because there is a specific manifestation of sloth that occurs when a person just endures a set of circumstances without being willing to change them while trying to help keep as many people as possible alive. Usually a soldier in wartime who is a good comrade and warrior but is unwilling to confront the system itself that left him and his comrades on the battlefield that is killing them.

There is a difference between saving people and protecting people. Shirou will jump at any chance to save someone, but will never protect anyone, himself included, from the world or himself. This is what makes him such a tragic anti-villain. Think about all the times Shirou saves people, helps them continue existing, but never helps them to live their lives.

When has Shirou ever personally actually helped anyone, himself included, overcome their problems instead of just beating them back for a time?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Shirou is a lazy fascist because he doesn't run self-help classes" is an amazing take, what a way to kick off 2023.
 
Chapterstyx said:
I mean i'd say he mastered kanshou and bakuya considering the fact he managed to solo saber alter with them in the Sparks Liner High ending
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah but that is a bad end even if it is not labeled as such. Also Shirou soloing Saber with Kanshou and Bakuya is some dark irony considering the metatext of their relationship being like the blacksmith and his wife.

Revlid said:
"Shirou is a lazy fascist because he doesn't run self-help classes" is an amazing take, what a way to kick off 2023.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

o_O:lol::rofl: Thank you. That is a hilarious response to that part of my post you quoted.

But please could you elaborate? Cause while it makes me giggle, I don't actually understand what your point is so I can't give a proper response to it.
 
Dmol8 said:
Yeah but that is a bad end even if it is not labeled as such. Also Shirou soloing Saber with Kanshou and Bakuya is some dark irony considering the metatext of their relationship being like the blacksmith and his wife.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It might be a bad end but thats because shirou goes brain dead from overusing archers arm, not anything to do with the fight itself, like saber was done, if shirou was capable of moving he could have killed her, that means that if it was archer himself fighting her he could have beaten her then with just kanshou and bakuya, not even using UBW except by projecting kanshou and bakuya in the first place, so yeah i'd say archer pretty obviously mastered kanshou and bakuya
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Back
Top