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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Well, there's plots that rely on people making dumb mistakes.

And then there's Egrimm's novel, which requires that the entire Light Order not recognise that the eight pointed star is a symbol of Chaos.
 
Hm. Having thought on things again, I actually wonder if the 'risk' to the Waystone Project isn't "they don't trust you to run the Waystone Project, at least not without some thorough checking first which will delay or irritate it" but rather...

"You're asked to pull off the Waystone Project so that you can help them hunt Everchosen candidates instead."

Or perhaps "So that they can study you if you have some mark on or identifier on you, so that they can try to create an Everchosen-dictator or Everchosen-compass."

Because THAT would be hella worth it, and would be hella tempting of a reason to stop or slow-roll the Waystone Project! "Help us find a way to better detect or identify or understand the Everchosen phenomena" would be something big enough. It's something unique to Mathilde. And it's also something the Colleges have not had a historical opportunity to dig into -- it's possible that nobody really has; Ulthuan might not have had Elf Everchosen to look at and poke at, Cathay might or might not have had Everchosen candidates fess up early on but Cathay is far away from us... The Old World might have had people confess to priests of course. But we don't know how that would go, or what level of information they would have been able to plumb from that. If nothing else, it's plausible that they at least wouldn't have the same tools that Wizards would have access to -- given that they'd be miracle-slingers rather than spell-slingers.

Plus, if it succeeds? Imagine the value to the future; "We have some more knowledge of the Everchosen phenomena or selection process."

This could be something big enough to the world to equal or surpass the Waystone Project. ((I mean, if it actually succeeds or gets anywhere at all, but. Waystones are something the world over; they help hold back magic accumulation, but, it's sort of like "a project to clean up or prevent oil spillage or a way to use nuclear power or safely recycle it." It helps everybody, but it's also sort of known-knowledge. Even if it's probably known just to Ulthuan and Cathay and Nehekhara and not us and thus we can't get that sweet nuclear energy.)) And it's also not something we can really easily do on our own because, well, how would we even go about studying it?

And if we did spend favor or money to get somebody to prognosticate or scan us, and they did detect something, how would we get them to not panic and run away? What, would we get Cython to scan us or something? ... Actually that's a cool idea; getting a Hysh Dragon's help in scanning or researching a topic like this. Huh. I wonder if it'd be interested to begin with, or if it would need to be bribed? (If so, we can bribe with AV or Orbs of Sorcery or something I dunno.)

... Also, the security clearances on the papers would probably be "shoot yourself before reading" levels, so hey, score. Beat that, suckers.
 
[X] [BELEGAR] Weakening of reality

[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon

Problem i have with the argument that Grey College would not learn about the daemon, or that it would be a he said/she said case if chaos wanted to use our silence against us, is that it assumes this is a singular event.
Sure, we met a single demon, nobody cares, what about the next one? Or the one after that? Or the dozen that follow?
At what point do we go and come clean? Never? That's just asking to be found out to have had continued contact with chaos.

Is telling GC about the Daemon a potential hit? Yes. But it is a limited one, and removes a potential dagger from our back.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
If the number of people who are saying "The Everchosen is coming" dramatically rises over a short period of time, then that suggests it would be sooner rather than later. Mathilde adding to that simply enhances the accuracy. And yes, it can be argued that Mathilde's single data point doesn't matter because other people are also providing evidence, but it's like democracy—just because your single vote doesn't actually matter, doesn't mean you shouldn't vote.
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Assuming there are enough data points for statistical analyses seems rather dubious and that is of course assuming that Chaos, of necessity the source of most of these claims, would not be inclined to troll its enemies.

Trolls are Chaos creatures you know :V
 
Boney said:
If Ulgu was involved it would have detonated. Mathilde was manipulating it with an extension of her soul, in the same way that she usually manipulates Ulgu with her soul to perform spells.
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Eisenhelm said:
I though her soul was mostly Ulgu by this point.
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I suddenly realize that I haven't been paying much attention to how wizards wiz.

Soul touch wind in environment, shape wind, wind (at some point) stick on soul, wind touch other wind bad, human stay one wind.

AV is not a wind, but we can touch it with our soul because it is magic. And the below is talking about physical handling-
Boney said:
So. Vitae is safe to handle by Wizards as long as one is gentle, as they can control the magic within them and keep it away from the Vitae they are handling.
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but the update also said that AV was cohesive, so it takes a bit to disturb.
Boney said:
Now for the more desired transformation. Petty and Lesser Magics are insufficient, even when physically touching the Vitae, which surprises you.
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Boney said:
In contrast to both of these, the creation of a powerstone is about pinning down a single strand of a Wind and then compressing it through sheer force of will over a period of weeks.
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I thought I had forgotten something, but it looks like...
Boney said:
You end up settling on a third of a gallon as a minimum size to achieve adequate control, and after you've grown familiar with the metaphysical weight of the liquid as you enforce your will upon it, you lift it with a gesture into the air, holding it in as perfectly spherical a shape as you can.
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This was actually the first time we touched AV with our soul? I would've thought it a more remarkable occasion. All previous instances of levitating AV were, I think, rune-assisted. We're not doing this with Ulgu, because kaboom. No, wait, we could always directly manipulate magic so this isn't weird, I was just confused because AV is also physical. This is just like "levitating" Ulgu...
Boney said:
She only has four of the ten common Arcane Marks for Ulgu. There's still a long way to go before she'd have trouble finding a non-Ulgu part of her soul to use.
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Ah, found the main point of my confusion. I thought not being able to keep your marked wind out of your soul-manipulations was the foundation of Imperial magic? Where does the contact happen that results in dhar?
 
What happens if Mathilda ends up killing all the other candidates and then just says no to the position. Like, Mister Lord of Changer over here said it would amuse Chaos God if Mathilda said no and kept pushing them up, but that was on the basis of her taking the Everchosen position and use that to push them out. What if she rejects the position itself?
Do they keep trying? Select another person at random?

Just jump over it?
"I'm the fourteen Everchosen of Chaos!"
"..W-what happened with the thirteen??"
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
So instead of comparing it to other data points to gauge it's validity, you're just going to throw it away? You're not even going to test your hypothesis that it's unreliable?
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No; because doing so isn't free and has an opportunity cost. This is like saying you should compare the results of a magic eight ball to other sources of information to see if you can trust the magic eight balls' prediction. Doing so is not only a waste of time but actively harmful because it might make you more likely to believe as magic eight ball is a reliable method of predicting the future.
Garlak said:
. Having thought on things again, I actually wonder if the 'risk' to the Waystone Project isn't "they don't trust you to run the Waystone Project, at least not without some thorough checking first which will delay or irritate it" but rather...

"You're asked to pull off the Waystone Project so that you can help them hunt Everchosen candidates instead."

Or perhaps "So that they can study you if you have some mark on or identifier on you, so that they can try to create an Everchosen-dictator or Everchosen-compass."
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We know there isn't a mark on Mathilde's soul though, so it's not a possibility.
 
Sa'kage said:
What happens if Mathilda ends up killing all the other candidates and then just says no to the position. Like, Mister Lord of Changer over here said it would amuse Chaos God if Mathilda said no and kept pushing them up, but that was on the basis of her taking the Everchosen position and use that to push them out. What if she rejects the position itself?
Do they keep trying? Select another person at random?

Just jump over it?
"I'm the fourteen Everchosen of Chaos!"
"..W-what happened with the thirteen??"
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I mean you do not actually get the position from killing a bunch of dudes, you have to quest after the favor of the four, claim the various parts of the regalia etc... Without that you are just a person who killed a bunch of chaos aligned champions.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean you do not actually get the position from killing a bunch of dudes, you have to quest after the favor of the four, claim the various parts of the regalia etc... Without that you are just a person who killed a bunch of chaos aligned champions.
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Yea, which is why i started my question with "If Mathilda kills all the other candidates". Essentially leaving herself as the only worthy candidate, except she isn't actually gonna play that game
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing about necromancy and chaos is less about stasis and more about it being anti-theurgy. Necromancy is the magic designed by an apostate priest in spite of all gods. The reason Tzeench hates necromancy is the same one Sigmar hates it, it's the one thing they agree on.
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Chaos hates Vampires, I've never seen any evidence that Chaos in general hates Necromancy itself, particularly to the point of not being able to work alongside it, even begrudgingly.

(Nagash himself, probably, but that's a whole separate thing from just "any Necromancy")
 
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[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen, Daemon, and Mathilde's candidacy

i have no opinion on any of this, except for the fact that i think being a lady magister means we are trusted by those we have been appointed by, and thus that it is safe to trust them in turn.
 
Time to vote.

So I saw many people making the comment that we should stay completely silent because everything the Daemon said is Tzeentchian bullshit and the best way to deal with it is to ignore it even happened. Be that as it may, there are some facts that are not potential lies said by a Daemon. Namely, the Daemon's actions. It did insert a memory package in our brain. It did try to breach through our nascent liminal space. It did fill us with magic that helped us stop it from breaching.

With that said, here is my vote:

[X] [BELEGAR] Weakening of reality
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening

Belegar should know about any potential weakpoints in his Karak. I trust Belegar to trust us and not overreact. And I trust Mathilde to accurately convey that the thread is not acute, and Belegar to have it accurately checked by the likes of Kragg and Gazul. But there's no reason to tell Belegar about the Daemon without telling him about the weakpoint. The only reason to tell him about the Daemon at all is about maintaining disclosure and trust, which is more about Mathilde's relationship as she sees it than about anything else. It's a low priority to me, but I am not against it, thus the approval.

[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
[X] [COLLEGE] Incoming Everchosen

As Mathymancer said, even if telling the College about our contact has small consequences overall, one of the consequences would be to throw massive suspicion upon any research we subsequently do related to Kurgan, Norscan or Skaven religion. It would also be an issue with smug out of nowhere revelations of scientific breakthroughs and other cool stuff. So, out of purely selfish reasons, I vote to not disclose.
That said, I believe that the Empire being a bit more alert in case of another Everchosen invasion is a good thing, regardless of veracity or timeline. This wouldn't necesarily be always true. A nation can be too focused on military threats and enemy infiltration and a hint like this could have the result of wasting even more precious resources that such a nation could have instead used to solve unrelated problems or for internal development. I do not think that the current Empire is such a nation though.
Regardless I am also approval voting Nothing because the value of warning about the Everchosen seems less than the value of not drawing suspicion to me. Again, out of purely selfish reasons.
Alratan said:
How?

How does the enemy reveal it? Explain the sequence of events that does so in a way that wouldn't be equally possible of the daemon had never showed up?

The structures Mathilde is part of expect her to keep secrets. That's a major part of her job. Not telling anyone is not her putting more trust in those structures, it's just telling those structures to put less trust in her. She is the authorities here. Telling other people means she's saying she can't handle this and they need to do something about it.

What is that something? There only sensible response is to trust her less, as the only reason they'd need to know is if Mathilde realised she may be compromised.
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Example: There currently is a suborned Celestial or Light Journeyman or Magister. They lie about what they found out when getting a glimpse of the future or raiding a Tzeentch Cult or whatever.
 
DragonParadox said:
Assuming there are enough data points for statistical analyses seems rather dubious and that is of course assuming that Chaos, of necessity the source of most of these claims, would not be inclined to troll its enemies.

Trolls are Chaos creatures you know :V
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The Empire has hundreds, if not thousands of seers, oracles, soothsayers, and prophets. Morr is the god of prophetic dreams, and has an entire order of vampire slayers who receive direct instructions from him. The Celestial college went all in with scrying the future because it's significantly more powerful than flinging lighting at people. The Gods regularly send portents and omens to their priests. The Empire is not blind or deaf to the movements of Chaos, and the data point we just received can be added to that information. If it's false and the demon was lying to us, that will be detected. And if it's true, then that will strengthen and verify the more legitimate sources of information.
 
Pailiniliap said:
i have no opinion on any of this, except for the fact that i think being a lady magister means we are trusted by those we have been appointed by, and thus that it is safe to trust them in turn.
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What's your general opinion on Regimand not sharing that he either had the previous Empress assassinated or assassinated her himself?
 
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