Remove ads

Seeing Red [Naruto]

Reader mode
Darkcore41 said:
I'm not saying strength contributes more then speed but that strength contributes something. If I understood the arguement it was that str doesn't contribute at all.

We also do main Iaido but apparently the mc switches styles after the first strike making str more relevant then what it would be if just Iaido was used.

Edit: I rather have a constant boost then a conditional trump card.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1) We KNOW there is at least two hostile Mangekyou Sharingan users out there: Itachi, and whoever the Trenchcoat MS user was that helped kill Sarutobi at the Exams. Obito may or may not be alive as well.

We know Danzo is still rocking Shisui's Mangekyou
We know Orochimaru can use Edo Tensei to summon inexhaustible zombies.
We know that Black Zetsu and his bodycontrol might be out there still.

When we need that conditional trump, we need it pretty badly.


2)Our Final Hurricane Seal is a conditional trump.
Dont knock them.
 
uju32 said:
1) We KNOW there is at least two hostile Mangekyou Sharingan users out there: Itachi, and whoever the Trenchcoat MS user was that helped kill Sarutobi at the Exams. Obito may or may not be alive as well.

We know Danzo is still rocking Shisui's Mangekyou
We know Orochimaru can use Edo Tensei to summon inexhaustible zombies.
We know that Black Zetsu and his bodycontrol might be out there still.

When we need that conditional trump, we need it pretty badly.


2)Our Final Hurricane Seal is a conditional trump.
Dont knock them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Final Hurricane was a last ditch move of desperation that needs to be fixed.

As for your examples, most of them can be dodged. If we have to tank those then we're close to losing. The chakra cost of stopping one of your above examples would take chunks out of the chakra pool that will exhaust as combat goes on. The fire of Amatarsu can be dodged and is something we don't wish to tank. Every ability from those eyes are dodgeable.

As for Black Zetsus body control is that absorbable? Edo tense is something to lock away not absorb.
 
[x] Sealing Art: Spiral Consuming Seal. This method of sealing creates a scroll capable of sealing away a technique, though it is costly to use and equally costly to unseal the technique - this is a defensive seal, not a fully functioning 'jutsu scroll'. It is, however, more general than Jiraiya's Fire Sealing Method.
 
[x] Sealing Art: Chakra Burst Network. This network of extremely thin seals, corresponding to Hisana's muscles, allows the use of explosive bursts of chakra for physical enhancement and reinforces the body to withstand them. Each precisely controlled burst of chakra gives the user a burst of strength, acting like an early version of Tsunade's Chakra Enhanced Strength. Though inferior to beginning-of-part-two Sakura's usage of the technique, it can be improved.
 
Ayashi said:
Contrary to Hollywood popular belief you can in fact push or pick up people out of harm's way.
And most of your other examples would see similar effectiveness against protag trying to intercept them with a sealing tag.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You can try. Even Hisana will struggle to escape the multi-mile danger radius of a bijuudama, even without holding someone else; and again, I'd like to see you push someone out of the way of an Amaterasu without getting hit by it yourself.

(Amaterasu is really kind of the gold standard of "things it's an utter pain to defend against", isn't it. Moves as fast as you can change your focus, can be cast again back to back, once it hits you're utterly fucked unless you either already have a pre-prepared seal or are willing to amputate on the spot...)

Also, no, not really. Most jutsu only have one "life", so to speak; if it hits a sealing tag, that's it. Ironically Amaterasu is still probably the big exception here, but usually things that are that hard to defend against come with big charge times and/or chakra costs.

Darkcore41 said:
As for your examples, most of them can be dodged. If we have to tank those then we're close to losing. The chakra cost of stopping one of your above examples would take chunks out of the chakra pool that will exhaust as combat goes on. The fire of Amatarsu can be dodged and is something we don't wish to tank. Every ability from those eyes are dodgeable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And if we have our back to something?

Unless you're a Sidereal, dodging can only ever protect yourself.
 
Last edited:
Darkcore41 said:
Final Hurricane was a last ditch move of desperation that needs to be fixed.

As for your examples, most of them can be dodged. If we have to tank those then we're close to losing. The chakra cost of stopping one of your above examples would take chunks out of the chakra pool that will exhaust as combat goes on. The fire of Amatarsu can be dodged and is something we don't wish to tank. Every ability from those eyes are dodgeable.

As for Black Zetsus body control is that absorbable? Edo tense is something to lock away not absorb.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1)Final Hurricane is by definition a conditional trump.

Curse Seals are a conditional trump. Sage Mode is a conditional trump. Kyuubi Mode is a conditional trump. Susanoo is a conditional trump. Creation Rebirth is a conditional trump. Izanagi is a conditional trump. So are Rinnegan's big moves like the moon technique and big push. Hidan's sacrifice technique is a conditional trump. Deidara's nanobombs are a conditional trump.

Conditional trumps define the repertoire of the Narutoverse's upper tiers.


2)No they cant. You cant dodge a bijuudama and its miles wide AoE. You cant dodge something like Kirin.
You cant dodge one of Kisame's big Water techniques.
You cant dodge Amaterasu.

I do not recall anyone ever successfully dodging Amaterasu. Even Sasuke had to tank Itachi's Amaterasu and then shed his skin.

The people you are trying to protect cant dodge a bijuudama either, or a Rinnegan Push, like we saw during Pain's Invasion when it wrecked Konoha. Or most similar techniques. Some things must be faced head on, either because you cannot move fast enough or because if you do, you sacrifice a goal that must be protected.

Those are the breaks.
 
Last edited:
linkhyrule5 said:
And if we have our back to something?

Unless you're a Sidereal, dodging can only ever protect yourself
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If we have our back to something there are jutsu with less cost that can block or barriers we already know to do so. Or maybe just work on chakra armor more instead of using a more costly branch. Also if our backs are against the wall against a peer opponent then we better hope we have more chakra then them or the seal isn't much of a defense. The point of defense is to setup a couple ter attack so we wish to trade a cheaper defense then their attack. A re-elect is going to be 2 times the cost of their jutsu so we better hope the Trump card ends the fight.

This also assumes genjutsu, taijutsu, or nintaijutsu isn't used. I can see this being useful outside of ombat to study jutsu but not inside of it.

Edit: @uju32 were tanking a Bijuudama then that scroll isnt going to do anything because we have to match the chakra cost. Against Bijuus a chakra trade is foolish.

As for conditional trumps I think I haven't been clear. The conditions that this scroll is useful is too niche. Final Hurricane is just very chakra intensive an is only a finisher. Sagemode is barely useful unless someone cheats, Izanagi isn't worth it unless you have a sacrifice or don't mind being permanently crippled. Being compared to those techniques isn't really helping its case.

Susanoo cost is crippling unless you have ems etc. Most of these things require plot armor, cheats to work.
 
Last edited:
Final Hurricane, due to the chambered design, is actually something we can use pretty much whenever we want. Its not really a conditional trump, unless the condition is 'whenever we need more chakra or a general stat boost'.

There's no downside to using it except needing to refill it later, and because we can use it in sections 'later' can be in another five battles, wherein we get to use it for all of them.

It doesn't cut into lifespan or make us blind, it doesn't require sitting completely still, its not a weird phylactery thing. Its just a general boost and an extra reserve of chakra. If there's no downside its not really 'conditional' because you just use it in every fight worth calling a fight.

There's a better case to be made for Lightning Blood being conditional because at least that can get dangerous with overuse. Talon was conditional but the Sword of Spring pretty much solved that.

Which, to be clear, nothing against trump cards. Like I've said, all of these options are great.

Darkcore41 said:
Edit: @uju32 were tanking a Bijuudama then that scroll isnt going to do anything because we have to match the chakra cost. Against Bijuus a chakra trade is foolish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It doesn't say we have to match the cost, just that the cost is large.

It does say that the formula is bound to a scroll, which puts a limit on how fast it can be used- its not like our armor or lightning blood where its inscribed on our body and always ready to be used with a thought.
 
Last edited:
Darkcore41 said:
Edit: @uju32 were tanking a Bijuudama then that scroll isnt going to do anything because we have to match the chakra cost. Against Bijuus a chakra trade is foolish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It says no such thing.
I quote:
Sealing Art: Spiral Consuming Seal. This method of sealing creates a scroll capable of sealing away a technique, though it is costly to use and equally costly to unseal the technique - this is a defensive seal, not a fully functioning 'jutsu scroll'. It is, however, more general than Jiraiya's Fire Sealing Method.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nowhere does it say we have to match the cost of the technique we are sealing.
Just that its expensive to seal away and to unseal.
 
uju32 said:
It says no such thing.
I quote:

Nowhere does it say we have to match the cost of the technique we are sealing.
Just that its expensive to seal away and to unseal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
OK thay was my bad but the point still stands that we dont want to go through a chakra trade with people have have large chakra pools. Pein and Bijuus can spam those attacks. It makes more sense for cheaper alternatives like barriers.

Edit: @linkhyrule5 kisame floods a city we cant do anything because he can just spam it back as we seal it. He is a tailess beasr when it comes to chakra. If he wanted to he could exhaust us.
 
Last edited:
Darkcore41 said:
If we have our back to something there are jutsu with less cost that can block or barriers we already know to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Are there? And we know them? Really?

We have one barrier, and it definitely doesn't stop bijuudama. I'd lay good odds it doesn't stop Amaterasu either. In fact I'm a little puzzled that it can stop anything immaterial -- but, well, Naruto jutsu certainly does go conceptual in places.

... in fact, actually, we should probably test that barrier. We've used it all of once AFAIK, against Orochimaru, and he didn't really test it, he just left. We really have no idea what we can handle with it.

Regardless, I'd be pretty damn surprised if it handled a S-rank's serious attempt at getting around a speedster. And literally everyone at that rank has at least one good counter. What're we going to do if Kisame decides to flood the city, for example? Sure, we'll be fine. Anyone who can't walk on water, on the other hand...

Darkcore41 said:
OK thay was my bad but the point still stands that we dont want to go through a chakra trade with people have have large chakra pools. Pein and Bijuus can spam those attacks. It makes more sense for cheaper alternatives like barriers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Bijuu can't actually spam bijuudama. (At least, not the full power ones; I'm aware they can do the 'split one blast into a machine-gun patter' thing.) They may have the chakra, but they don't have the charge time. Even Kyuubi takes like thirty seconds to build up a proper blast.

Anyway, I'm not exactly saying "hey this exact specific thing will get us to the point we can properly defend against S-rank threats," here. We aren't S-Rank yet, there's really no arguing that. Just that there's a very clear path to that point, that starts from where we actually are; and it doesn't go through stealing Sakura's lunch :V.
 
Last edited:
Darkcore41 said:
OK thay was my bad but the point still stands that we dont want to go through a chakra trade with people have have large chakra pools. Pein and Bijuus can spam those attacks. It makes more sense for cheaper alternatives like barriers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Barriers are really not cheaper.
Consider how much power you need to stop a bijuudama by blocking it. We literally need people in the Kage range to attempt to pull that off, and even then we see Minato prefer to simply divert.

Not to mention that in the case of Amaterasu, we've literally seen it burn its way out of the Jiraiya summon technique that was supposed to contain its user.

Furthermore, barriers do fuckall about other threats like Edo Tensei zombies, which are regenerating inexhausible autonomous superweapons that are sapient.
THEY need to be sealed or they will simply keep coming.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Are there? And we know them? Really?

We have one barrier, and it definitely doesn't stop bijuudama. I'd lay good odds it doesn't stop Amaterasu either. In fact I'm a little puzzled that it can stop anything immaterial -- but, well, Naruto jutsu certainly does go conceptual in places.

... in fact, actually, we should probably test that barrier. We've used it all of once AFAIK, against Orochimaru, and he didn't really test it, he just left. We really have no idea what we can handle with it.

Regardless, I'd be pretty damn surprised if it handled a S-rank's serious attempt at getting around a speedster. And literally everyone has at least one good counter. What're we going to do if Kisame decides to flood the city, for example? Sure, we'll be fine. Anyone who can't walk on water, on the other hand...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In canon it successfully deflected a punch from the Hachibi. And also hurt him.

It's actually pretty wild how strong the barrier techniques tend to be.

A similar (but not identical) barrier called the Four Violet Flames Formation was used to trap Hiruzen for his showdown with Orochimaru, and no one was capable of breaking said barrier. Kato Dan stated that it was capable of blocking his Spirit Transformation Technique, which as a move where you literally eject your spirit from your body and fly around is about as immaterial as it gets.

I'd give good odds of UFF being capable of blocking Amaterasu, at least.
 
Last edited:
uju32 said:
Barriers are really not cheaper.
Consider how much power you need to stop a bijuudama by blocking it. We literally need people in the Kage range to attempt to pull that off, and even then we see Minato prefer to simply divert.

Not to mention that in the case of Amaterasu, we've literally seen it burn its way out of the Jiraiya summon technique that was supposed to contain its user.

Furthermore, barriers do fuckall about other threats like Edo Tensei zombies, which are regenerating inexhausible autonomous superweapons that are sapient.
THEY need to be sealed or they will simply keep coming.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He'll fire is one of those things you dodge or move people out of the way of. In the case of Itachi he won't just be fring people indiscriminately. As far as I know there are only two people with it. Secondly we have armor for that. So we either dodge or discard the armor. It's ablative for a reason right?

As for Edo tensei zombies, they have a way cheaper seal thay was handed out during the war arc. How skilled does the Mc have to be to make those?
 
GrimTheMad said:
In canon it successfully deflected a punch from the Hachibi. And also hurt him.

It's actually pretty wild how strong the barrier techniques tend to be.

A similar (but not identical) barrier called the Four Violet Flames Formation was used to trap Hiruzen for his showdown with Orochimaru, and no one was capable of breaking said barrier. Kato Dan stated that it was capable of blocking his Spirit Transformation Technique, which as a move where you literally eject your spirit from your body and fly around is about as immaterial as it gets.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's kind of hilarious, yeah. But I assume there's some reason people don't just put the thing on a cart and snipe out of it, or something similar.

(As a side note, the Four Violet Flames Formation is, I believe, a custom job by snakeface for basically that specific purpose. If we learn that thing, implicitly we'll have learned something that the God of Shinobi had no way of quickly breaking; at that point, I'll shut up, at least for a while. But I honestly don't know how good the Uchiha equivalent would be. "Blocks a Hachibi punch" is... not bad, but I don't recall punches from Bijuu being particularly notable.)

Darkcore41 said:
He'll fire is one of those things you dodge or move people out of the way of. In the case of Itachi he won't just be fring people indiscriminately. As far as I know there are only two people with it. Secondly we have armor for that. So we either dodge or discard the armor. It's ablative for a reason right?

As for Edo tensei zombies, they have a way cheaper seal thay was handed out during the war arc. How skilled does the Mc have to be to make those?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think it's safe to assume that Tobirama's pride and joy doesn't have a super simple obvious counter, and that, to paraphrase an IRL author, it takes a tremendous amount of skill and effort to produce that cheap counter.

GrimTheMad said:
Technically only one, right now. Itachi has it- the only other person to use it was Sasuke, and in addition to obviously not having the mangy eyes yet (and hopefully never) he only even had it because he got an eye transplant from Itachi iirc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nah, there's the rando trenchcoat who has them. At least, he has Susanoo.
 
[x] Sealing Art: Spiral Consuming Seal. This method of sealing creates a scroll capable of sealing away a technique, though it is costly to use and equally costly to unseal the technique - this is a defensive seal, not a fully functioning 'jutsu scroll'. It is, however, more general than Jiraiya's Fire Sealing Method.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
I think it's safe to assume that Tobirama's pride and joy doesn't have a super simple obvious counter, and that, to paraphrase an IRL author, it takes a tremendous amount of skill and effort to produce that cheap counter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
When you realize that their are very few seal specialists and fewer ones thay go on the battlefield you realize it's not easily handled. Jiraya being the only one I remember using it in combat. If we know it's coming we probably could prepare for it.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Nah, there's the rando trenchcoat who has them. At least, he has Susanoo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Outside of Susanoo, which seems consistent across everyone who has mangy eyes (though the particulars of it vary), different eyes grant different powers. Itachi had Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, Obito had Kamui, Shisui had Kotoamatsukami, Madara had that weird Limbo thing.
 
GrimTheMad said:
Outside of Susanoo, which seems consistent across everyone who has mangy eyes (though the particulars of it vary), different eyes grant different powers. Itachi had Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, Obito had Kamui, Shisui had Kotoamatsukami, Madara had that weird Limbo thing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Okay, but I don't want to go up against Kamui or Limbo with our current powerset either, so... point stands?

(Admittedly, if anything could ignore our fancy absorbing seal it'd be Kamui or a similar spacetime technique. But fancy absorbing seal is going to get you a lot farther against that than MUSCLE GOOD lol)
 
GrimTheMad said:
In canon it successfully deflected a punch from the Hachibi. And also hurt him.

It's actually pretty wild how strong the barrier techniques tend to be.

A similar (but not identical) barrier called the Four Violet Flames Formation was used to trap Hiruzen for his showdown with Orochimaru, and no one was capable of breaking said barrier. Kato Dan stated that it was capable of blocking his Spirit Transformation Technique, which as a move where you literally eject your spirit from your body and fly around is about as immaterial as it gets.

I'd give good odds of UFF being capable of blocking Amaterasu, at least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Only when used by Fourth World War Obito.
You know, the guy who was duelling Kakashi, Gai, Hachibi and Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto simultaneously.
That was just utter broken bullshit.
 
uju32 said:
Only when used by Fourth World War Obito.
You know, the guy who was duelling Kakashi, Gai, Hachibi and Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto simultaneously.
That was just utter broken bullshit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Impossible to say how much that matters- its use by Obito is the only time it was ever used in canon. We don't know how much that varied from a 'normal' use, if at all. It also didn't seem at all strained from the blow, so that wasn't the upper limit.
 
Darkcore41 said:
When you realize that their are very few seal specialists and fewer ones thay go on the battlefield you realize it's not easily handled. Jiraya being the only one I remember using it in combat. If we know it's coming we probably could prepare for it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Gaara. Danzo. Sasori. Chiyo. Orochimaru. Kakashi. And thats off the top of my head.
A good chunk of the Hyuga are as well, given the Caged Bird Seal. Literally every Sand puppet user.
The Fourth World War brought entire battalions of sealing specialists onto the field.

Many a time its easier and faster to simply shank a bitch.
That does not denote a lack of knowledge, or an inability to apply other solutions.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top