[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
That's necrophobic. (but seriously there are probably a lot of living spirits without a pulse too)
I'm getting very concerned that this thread consistently has the attitude "we should never attempt to seriously interact with anyone who disagrees with us". That's, like, the exact opposite of diplomacy. WHICH IS THE WHOLE THING WE'RE DOING!
I have every confidence that we'll be able to coach Xuan Shi into manipulating this guy. "Well of course you don't think diplomacy can work; you Jin are too incompetent for that."
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
Keep in mind also: making nice to the Imperials is NOT just about the peaks. It is also about all the Imperial-leaning factions within the Emerald Seas as well.
- Location
- Finland
We should interact with people who disagree with us =/= We should invite people who disagree with us into our inner circle in the hopes of converting them.
We will be interacting with this guy no matter which we pick, the question is how much are we willing to risk him being able to sabotage us in the hopes we can convert them.
We will be interacting with this guy no matter which we pick, the question is how much are we willing to risk him being able to sabotage us in the hopes we can convert them.
Our job isn't open ended "diplomacy". Our job is to assist Cai Renxiang in her clan's negotiations with the White Sky. Insofar as we believe that Jin Tae will get in the way of that (and given his comments he is a potential asset if we wish to take certain diplomatic tacks), we have an obligation to limit his participation.
As part of our existing relationships, we have tentative support from the Xuan and Bai. Xuan Shi, as a Xuan, is morally obligated to oppose Jin Tae out of loyalty to his clan. Putting a friend in the position of choosing between his relationship with us and his duty to his clan is a dick move but our loyalty to the Cai might well be more important to us and diplomacy sometimes demands being a dick.
Finally believing that we'll be able to coach Xuan Shi into manipulating Jin Tae is deeply condescending towards both of them. We ought to treat the people with whom we are working together with respect not as tools. Jin Tae is not some rube to be manipulated but a skilled cultivator and a shrewd student of realpolitik.
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If we can't take on Jin Tae, then we might as well quit. In terms of material impact on the summit, he's literally the least powerful actor around we know of who isn't Gan Guangli or Xia Lin.
I'm not a fan of the persistent, rigid unimaginativeness that insists that we're powerless to do anything so let's not try because we have to save up all our effort for when it REALLY matters. It's self-defeating. That's not how bringing about change works. It's not how political capital works. We need to build up both the toolset and the contacts to accomplish our objectives, and for that we need to try.
Sitting on our hands because things seem hard doesn't get us anywhere. It's a guaranteed path to failure and a boring one at that.
I'm not a fan of the persistent, rigid unimaginativeness that insists that we're powerless to do anything so let's not try because we have to save up all our effort for when it REALLY matters. It's self-defeating. That's not how bringing about change works. It's not how political capital works. We need to build up both the toolset and the contacts to accomplish our objectives, and for that we need to try.
Sitting on our hands because things seem hard doesn't get us anywhere. It's a guaranteed path to failure and a boring one at that.
Aliya
Someone I might become
- Location
- Kazakhstan
- Pronouns
- They/She/It
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
While I am not necessarily convinced that this is the better option, I do think this is the more interesting one.
While I am not necessarily convinced that this is the better option, I do think this is the more interesting one.
- Location
- Washington
Who cares if we can. We shouldn't. Because "in terms of material impact on the summit, he's literally the least powerful actor around we know of who isn't Gan Guangli or Xia Lin."
- Location
- South Africa
My view on this is that we are already struggling to meaningfully interact with all our contacts (espicially OOC, but also IC). I also believe that we need to start focusing on a smaller group in order to get high levels of approval and as part of defining and focusing our way.
The last thing we need is another faction to juggle. That's why I am voting to keep it professional. We don't have the IC time (AP) or OOC time (narrative jumps) to deal with the Jin without dropping something more important.
The last thing we need is another faction to juggle. That's why I am voting to keep it professional. We don't have the IC time (AP) or OOC time (narrative jumps) to deal with the Jin without dropping something more important.
- Location
- UK
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
I will say that in a few years when civil war looks to be right round the corner having him as a contact sounds very attractive, but for now prioritise the war in front of us.
I will say that in a few years when civil war looks to be right round the corner having him as a contact sounds very attractive, but for now prioritise the war in front of us.
- Location
- Spain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
Husbandoooo
Husbandoooo
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We're doing diplomacy, but our diplomacy is between the Emerald Seas and Polar Nation of the WS. This is where the order of priority comes in. Most important are CRX and her retainers, next are the ES nobles and counts, and lastly, the out of province observers. We try to build a relationship with each tier because, you know, we don't have time so we have to prioritize.
Now, we have reason to believe that Jin Tae, even if he agrees with us, might be against us because of the people he's representing. Which can get in the way of our MAIN diplomacy. So it makes sense to not include him in our important discussions on the off chance that we'll convert him. That's ignoring how converting him means he'll need narrative space, which he'll have to take from *others*, in our frankly large cast of characters.
And, as Johnnie has already pointed out, that's a very disrespectful view of both Xuan Shi and Jin Tae.
And we do make nice with imperials...most of the time. It's only imperial conservatives that we don't like. Imperial moderates are cool.
And that's really ignoring that, right now, politically, Renxiang expects us to focus on the more Weilu-focused people while she and Gan focuses on the more imperial aligned people.
I don't get this? Relationships aren't static. We can maybe get closer once we know more about him and his intentions since, you know, that's one of the reasons why we're wary to include him in the first place.
If doubt that he has the least material impact since he's the rep for two parties who are against us so far.
And the whole thing about being afraid to try? We've literally been doing the opposite of that. That's why we tried to convince Wang Lian. That's why we're trying to go the extra mile. That's why we're pushing for better communication between both the WS and the Empire.
We *ARE* trying.
Just throwing in my two cents:
Trust is a two way bridge. Hard to build and takes time and effort from both sides to build it.
It is also easy to destroy with miscommunication.
LQ, so far, managed to make connections with others by talking clearly with them.
This whole summit was possible because of a miscommunication getting cleared up.
And before someone brings up lakegate, that was also a miscommunication, but it got cleared up by talking with meizhen afterwards.
If we don't reach out, nobody will, basically.
Trust is a two way bridge. Hard to build and takes time and effort from both sides to build it.
It is also easy to destroy with miscommunication.
LQ, so far, managed to make connections with others by talking clearly with them.
This whole summit was possible because of a miscommunication getting cleared up.
And before someone brings up lakegate, that was also a miscommunication, but it got cleared up by talking with meizhen afterwards.
If we don't reach out, nobody will, basically.
- Location
- South Africa
I don't think anyone is arguing that we are unable to do Jin/MOI diplomacy, or that it will fail. The concerns raised are that Jin/MOI diplomacy is not our primary job and thus as a result taking it up will impact our primary job in a negative manner. The issue isn't the lack of chance of success but the cost to do it regardless of success.
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
