Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

Bear in mind, keeping Jin Tae at arm's length doesn't mean telling him to fuck off forever. He'll still be around, observing and reporting. We just won't let him in on the kind of stuff that might give a peakaboo fits.

AbeoLogos said:

Remember, my complaint with how the Luo Zhong incident went down was that after interaction was thrust on us, we chose not to challenge him and make him justify his trespass. Superficially, it might seem like taking a hands off approach keeps Jin Tae further out of Xuan Shi's space, and to a certain extent that's true, but moreso than that it keeps us out of Jin Tae's space, both their spaces by extension, and most fatally of all out of the know. This leaves us, Ling Qi, ill-equipped to back Xuan Shi up when it comes to aspects of foreign diplomacy that are important to him and the Xuan, that they would prefer we don't compromise on for the precedent it sets. Because without engaging with Jin Tae and the MoI's positions seriously, we're likely to just have big blindspots in strategies they're employing to set those precedents.

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It won't cut him out from the talks because Jin Tae isn't going to passively accept the distance we give him. Keeping him at a distance from our plans will mean we will have to contest his attempts to learn more. This is opposed to a closer relationship where we are constantly having to think about his perspective or have to ally with the MoI's goals.

But, like, he's talking about confronting the crowfathers. He's good at this. Only Meng Dan is operating at the same level as Jin Tae when it comes to infosec and Jin Tae is ducal and MoI to Meng Dan's comital. We are at a handicap here.

Also winning Jin Tae over is pointless. He has no power to affect MoI policy and he's a foreigner with no stake in the talks. It would be an accomplishment with no reward whatsoever. Winning over Cao Chun would be, but this is all a training exercise for Jin Tae so the tact we take here (unless we are going gung ho "complete support of the MoI") is irrelevant to that.

Karthak Urzak said:

Bear in mind, keeping Jin Tae at arm's length doesn't mean telling him to fuck off forever. He'll still be around, observing and reporting. We just won't let him in on the kind of stuff that might give a peakaboo fits.

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• We don't know if he is a "peakaboo" or not. Assuming he's one, is the same as every other Jin is the same kind of prejudice the empire holds towards everyone not born in the Empire.
• He will still see all the Results just not the reasons for it because no one is there to explain.
• Keep in mind that he is probably not one of there most favoured scions. He was sent to the most "backwater" region on the other side of the empire, and now he is a candidate to join the MOI and be basically lost to his clan.

I'm a friend of giving everyone a fair first chance and nothing we have seen of him up to now was in any way bad.
We "only" have the strong opinion about the Jin we have because we have more knowledge about them then LQ does.
I really dislike the Jin as a clan and there "treasure fleet" can have a misadventure to the horror storm for all I care. But even the Hui had some good Egg's in there ranks that survived the Cai purge.

The only valid reason for me to keep him at arm's length is IMO the AP it could potentially cost us.

Okay, so, at the end of the day, the contact with the White Sky is our project, to see if we can stop the raiding in the South.

The order of importance and closeness goes as follows.

Highest priority: Cai Renxiang and her retainers (Ling Qi, Gan Guangli, Xia Lin, Meng Dan, possibly).

We are the ones heading this operation, and the ones most at risk. We're the ones with the most things at stake, and we're the ones making the decisions.

Second priority: Emerald Seas Counts and nobles.

They also have things at stake because the outcome of the summit can and will affect the south of the Emerald Seas and its development. We have to meet some of their demands.

Lowest Priority: External observers

They have no stake in this apart from interest and what they can possibly gain. They can make recommendations, and we consider them, but ultimately, this is our project and an Emerald Seas project. They want people here to make their interests none for, again, possible gain.

The Bai and the Xuan are part of the external observers, but given the Bai-Cai-Xuan alliance and our personal relationships with Meizhen and Shi, they can fall under the second or first priority.

So, now, the vote.

The current vote isn't about how we approach our relationship with Jin Tae for the summit. The first option is to be close with him, and share our information, moving him up to about first or second priority. The reason for this is so this is that we may be able to change his mind and convince him to see our POV.

The second option is to keep our relationship professional, as we did with Zheng Fu. Giving him all the necessary details needed, but not any more, like our possible plans and hopes for the summit (without the whole rephrasing to make it sound more appealing). This is because he's an unknown factor, and we don't know enough about him or his interests yet.

I think the second option is best for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, Jin Tae isn't just our imperial minder. He's the Jin representative.

"Lodging for my retinue at the site," Cao Chun said crisply, turning back to them. "Two junior agents have been assigned to my command for on site operations. In addition, I am picking up an apprentice following this event. He will require lodging as well."

"Might I ask who?" Cai Renxiang asked.

"Jin Tae. You may know of him," the secretary said. "He will also serve as the eyes of the north in this, seeing that other provinces have begun to show their interest."

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He's the representative for the Jin in this, and thus, he'll support his clan's interests here. His clan are fully imperial and believes in imperial ideology and dogma, and he's here representing them. They are also opposed to the Bai and Xuan, our two main allies. We don't have enough information about them, but we know they and the Peaks mostly disapprove of our project. Bringing him in close and telling him our plans, in the hopes that we'll convince him when we've only just met today, sounds very risky because, on top of all this, we don't know where he stands.

Next, is that he's our liaison between the imperial side. That's another thing added to it. He's working for the MoI, people who, again, firmly believe in imperial propaganda. He's also the apprentice of someone who believes in imperial and cultural purity. So trying to convince him right now might not go so well with Cao Chun.

We have too many actions, and not enough time here. If we're going to have to befriend him to try and convince him, that'll probably take an action as well. Or, if not an action, then narrative space. And that might not even help with the summit because, at the end of the day, he has to follow the interests of his family and the MoI. I don't think we have time for that right now, with all the things we have to do. Maybe AFTER the summit, when we've seen his behaviour and seen how it goes, but not now.

And lastly, we really don't have Renxiang's input on things. If we're going to move him up to first or second priority, then we'll need to talk to Renxiang and the other retainers first.

AbeoLogos said:

Remember, my complaint with how the Luo Zhong incident went down was that after interaction was thrust on us, we chose not to challenge him and make him justify his trespass. Superficially, it might seem like taking a hands off approach keeps Jin Tae further out of Xuan Shi's space, and to a certain extent that's true, but moreso than that it keeps us out of Jin Tae's space, both their spaces by extension, and most fatally of all out of the know. This leaves us, Ling Qi, ill-equipped to back Xuan Shi up when it comes to aspects of foreign diplomacy that are important to him and the Xuan, that they would prefer we don't compromise on for the precedent it sets. Because without engaging with Jin Tae and the MoI's positions seriously, we're likely to just have big blindspots in strategies they're employing to set those precedents.

Look at it another way, more narrativistically. The Jin and MoI have been introduced as antagonistic, or at least skeptical, domestic forces. Part of the plotline is to navigate their influence, preference, and so on. There's also a specific rivalry between Xuan Shi and Jin Tae that has been foreshadowed. I ultimately don't think it works from a story perspective for us to be able to sidestep the complications of their involvement. The entire point of their presence is to provide some level of complication, or they wouldn't be present. With that in mind, it seems preferable for that contact to occur in a context where we're actually making a dedicated effort to dig into what they're doing and influence them on the issues. There's also the fact that, because of that foreshadowed rivalry, minimizing Jin Tae's presence in the story very likely means minimizing Xuan Shi's presence in the story as well; it's like half his available plotlines at the moment. And that's something I don't want to do.

So. Proactively feeling out the threat, even if it exposes us for what we are a bit ahead of schedule, so that we can recognize and respond to any threats that represent challenges to our friends, so that we can work together with those friends in reciprocal aid against any ill-actors. We actually have a decent number of cards to play, but to do that we kind of need the players to be sitting at least in the same room if not at the same table. If everyone is spread out over strung together ad hoc encounters, we can't actually have anything like a strategy. It'll just be putting out fires we don't understand and hoping for the best, forever.

Option 1 has definite risks. But it's the choice that adheres more of the action together and preps it for smoother advancement, in my opinion.

Edit: also, to clarify, at no point did I ever suggest reducing Xuan Shi's role to only messing with Jin Tae. That's an uncharitable reading and/or just making things up. Jin interdiction is just blatantly something Xuan Shi will be tasked with performing be his own clan and he'll want to do it, among his other contributions. Using Xuan Shi to attempt to curate Jin Tae's influence on the project is genuinely in his own interests, and I specifically said "coordinate" with Xuan Shi, not boss him around or anything. It seems crazy to me to shrink away from working with Xuan Shi for both of our benefits because we'd also benefits.

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I don't believe option 2 will take Tae out of Shi's space. He's here to represent the Jin's interests, after all. Jin Tae and Xuan Shi are *going* to butt heads, just like how Liling and Meizhen immediately butted heads. But picking it up for that sole reason sounds unreasonable to me. I don't think picking option 2, where we'll approach Tae, will minimize Xuan Shi's appearance in the story. Not after we spent so long waiting to ask him, and not when he has other interests outside of the Jin, as we've seen recently in Sea of Dreams. Not when it's something important to his Way and current project, that is, changing nightmares into something better. Saying that the potential rivalry is what Shi would spend doing here is limiting; Meizhen's rivalry with Liling in the outer sect define everything; and I trust Shi to represent his side well.

I also feel like you're overcomplicating the matter here.

We can't be friends with everyone. Just like how we can't be the contact for all the count clans, like the Jia, we can't convince everyone and get their approval. But we can at least make sure we can communicate and keep a cordial, professional relationship with them.

Keeping a professional relationship isn't stonewalling or blocking things out of things.

JohnnieBoy123 said:

It won't cut him out from the talks because Jin Tae isn't going to passively accept the distance we give him. Keeping him at a distance from our plans will mean we will have to contest his attempts to learn more. This is opposed to a closer relationship where we are constantly having to think about his perspective or have to ally with the MoI's goals.

But, like, he's talking about confronting the crowfathers. He's good at this. Only Meng Dan is operating at the same level as Jin Tae when it comes to infosec and Jin Tae is ducal and MoI to Meng Dan's comital. We are at a handicap here.

Also winning Jin Tae over is pointless. He has no power to affect MoI policy and he's a foreigner with no stake in the talks. It would be an accomplishment with no reward whatsoever. Winning over Cao Chun would be, but this is all a training exercise for Jin Tae so the tact we take here (unless we are going gung ho "complete support of the MoI") is irrelevant to that.

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That's just the issue, at arm's length he has the absolute advantage across the board. We won't be able to keep him out of our shit reliably, and we're unlikely to successfully dig into his, if we even bother to try, which we're not likely to because action crunch and indifference. We can't even go about indirect methods because none of our network or even our network's networks has the reach to grab info on him, except maybe begging scraps from Bai Meizhen, while he'll have profiles on us and our domestic associates.

The information gulf is overwhelmingly in his favour and we flatly cannot begin to attempt to compete at a distance. The closer approach exposes vulnerabilities, yes, but it's also the only chance we've got at giving him something other than free reign from a position of polite obscurity. The only chance to glean operative data. Picking arm's length is, realistically, conceding the contest before it even begins and committing to a stance of apathy regarding his activities. And if our hand is forced and we absolutely have to devote the time and energy to countering him, then one of the most popular expressed reasons for keeping him at a distance, not wanting to spend time or effort on him, implodes. It's not great.

I honestly don't care about winning him over. It's about management.


@Oliver_Twister I'd like to address your post, but it's my bedtime and trying to sort through the tangle of all the words you keep putting in my mouth just isn't in the cards with that time limit. Apologies.

AbeoLogos said:

The information gulf is overwhelmingly in his favour and we flatly cannot begin to attempt to compete at a distance.

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As I see it we can only attempt to compete at a distance. Bringing him in close is a de facto position of near complete transparency on our end and does not appreciably alter our ability to gain information on him (on account of mostly relying on Xuan Shi's and Bai Meizhen's clan-based information networks).

Keeping him at a distance won't keep him in the dark (that's impossible) but its the strictly best way to preserve any level of obscurity regarding his investigation. It also allows Meng Dan et al to review communications to look for potential undesirable leaks and allows them to throw around their clans' weights around to force him to be circumspect.

We do not have a strong hand but keeping him close plays to his strengths and our weaknesses.

Dude's a cop, we don't want unplanned communications with him.

Edit: Of course this all changes if we do legitimately want to cooperate with the MoI. If we are on the same side then having a closer relationship helps make everything run more smoothly. The MoI is not our opponent yet and we don't need to compete against them.

But I don't like what they want out of us.

Ling Qi must look so confusing from an outside perspective.

All cool and reserved like a model prim and proper noble lady. Then you get close and she's actually air-headed periodically having to consult her muse to remember peoples names while also being quite the diligent workhorse. Get closer and she's empathetic to foreigners and spirits, openly philosophical and rather goofy.

Get too close and she instantly clams up and becomes ice cold and reserved.

If I couldn't read her build I would totally put money that she cultivates Mystery instead of Dreams and Endings.

yrsillar said:

He really was very handsome. Though his voice was warm, his manner was sterner and more serious than Meng Dan's.

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Handsome? Has a pulse? Say no more.

[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
I like expanding the cast of characters and this dude has some interesting strings attached, *and* keeping the liaison at arm's length to a dude we're already going to need to work around seems like it's adding another layer of complication.

[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here

On the simplest level I don't think it makes a lot of sense to make Jin, Ministry of Integrity, or Celestial Peaks writ large (through Cao Chun) interests part of our core decision-making group.

I just realized there's yet another reason why I want Ling Qi to steal Weilu blood from Uncle Skellington to the point where she becomes spirit-blooded and gains antlers.

The reaction from the grumpy ancestry tapestry when we use it again afterwards will be priceless.