Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

CrimsonOddball · Apr 30, 2022

K von Carstein said:
Wouldn't most people's opinion be « well, should have think more about the consequences, sucker »? Wouldn't it be bad for our reputation?

I feel this rather assumes a far more adversarial transaction than is actually being portrayed here

People seem to be regarding Tindomiel's asking price as unreasonable, and that actually comes across as rather odd to me
They are effectively offering to contribute, and the only price for contributing is... more contribution?
And they're also willing to work on contingency of the Waystones being an absolute success on top of that?
Frankly that is an absurdly generous deal, they're essentially offering to be interns paid in exposure

Like yes, I get that there are potential concerns about the about setting up Waystones as shrines to Hekarti
But like, we are literally determining the extent to which that occurs here
It can be kept entirely isolated to Laurelorn if we want
Or on the other extreme we can choose to allow them to build outside Laurelorn but prohibit any dedication to Hekarti whatsoever

In even the most cautious and wary lenses it seems odd to just jump to denying Tindomiel entirely
And even moreso to assume that they are somehow dealing in bad faith despite the frankly absurd level of control we have over this deal

Mopman43 · Apr 30, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Something to keep in mind is that these Hedgewise are literally directly under the authority of the Nordland EC, who more than anyone has an interest in trying to break up Laurelorn cooperation. It would be pretty trivial for him to unleash his ire on their village if he finds out they're involved.

The village is under the authority of the EC. I doubt that he knows Hedgewise even live there.

Copperscale · Apr 30, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Something to keep in mind is that these Hedgewise are literally directly under the authority of the Nordland EC, who more than anyone has an interest in trying to break up Laurelorn cooperation. It would be pretty trivial for him to unleash his ire on their village if he finds out they're involved.

And also trivial for Mathilde to walk out with his head when she finds out.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 30, 2022

Mopman43 said:
The village is under the authority of the EC. I doubt that he knows Hedgewise even live there.

Yes, he doesn't know, because they go out of their way to be unobtrusive. The winning vote is currently to change that.

IronFist said:
And also trivial for Mathilde to walk out with his head when she finds out.

Could we be a bit realistic here about consequences? Yeah sure lets knock off an EC for perfectly legitimate uses of his authority.

LadyLynn · Apr 30, 2022

[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
I do like that better than "how many people can read elf" and "middle ground", actually.

[X] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
Keeping this one. Would need some work to prevent issues, but we're not overstepping beyond the Empire. I could definitely be convinced out of this one, so I'll keep track of discussion.

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
I've come around to favor this one. I like the idea of messing around with Cults and Gods more. It also seems safer, and as has been mentioned, could lead to the "legal fiction" road of increasing safety of at least some Hedgewise, which would be neat and probably has higher chances of success.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Apr 30, 2022

The Nordlander EC (don't know if we ever learned his name?) is currently the weakest EC and the one with the least support from the wider empire at the moment.

Which means that if Mathilde decides to have a quiet chat with him in the middle of the night about why he shouldn't mess with the people of a certain village, there's not a lot of people he can call on to slap her wrist as retaliation.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 30, 2022

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The Nordlander EC (don't know if we ever learned his name?) is currently the weakest EC and the one with the least support from the wider empire at the moment.

Which means that if Mathilde decides to have a quiet chat with him in the middle of the night about why he shouldn't mess with the people of a certain village, there's not a lot of people he can call on to slap her wrist as retaliation.

Wow, I though it was just one person but apparently the thread really is letting power go to their head here.

Copperscale · Apr 30, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Could we be a bit realistic here about consequences here? Yeah sure lets knock off an EC for perfectly legitimate uses of his authority.

An elector count using their authority to attack a participant of the waystone project because they are participating in the project is quite similar to an Empress using her authority to (knowingly or unknowingly) help vampires.
Only it's helping Chaos this time.

This project is a potentially a diplomatic coup for the Empire as well as potentially vital for the fate of the world.

Branalhune going snicker-snack is really not that out there.

Not saying it's the go-to option. But it's an option

Boney · Apr 30, 2022

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The Nordlander EC (don't know if we ever learned his name?)

Grand Baron Werner Nikse.

Belkar · Apr 30, 2022

Okay, I dont even... most of the time I am the one for being sufficently paranoid but where comes all of this theyre not offering much and screwing us over talk from? As a part of the Laurelorn ruling elite, a part thats positive to relations with the empire, thats not going to happen. At least not in the dimensions you seem to expect. It would just undermine what they and the majority of Laurelorn want at the moment.
Are they in it for prestige and standing? Yes. Obviously. They tell us that much. Are they in it for prestige standing and maybe even intangible benefits for their goddess? Maybe. Depend on how interwoven gods and relations between Houses following those are. Seems likely to me. Is it relevant to us? I say no. Do we care if an elven goddess gets some prestige and recognition over some other? No. Do we care if shed get some intangible benefits, which we cant even speculate about? Even then no. The waystone network is the main weapon against chaos and the vortex keeps Ulthuan afloat. Why should it matter if an elven goddess gets some connection to that?
The main problem would be cults in the different polities, and thus of political nature. The waystones are already politically sensitive for their magic nature so we already have to work around that. Making this task more difficult is fine with me if we can get benefits now to get the ball rolling. Thats what we all wanted from them. The house most dedicated to magic. For this sort of expertise in theoretical magic and practical enchanting I see that as a small price to pay.

The hedgewise had a loredump way bigger then I expected and Im really happy they got recruited. Seems to me they gave us two to three military campaigns to organize in the future. Once we have some results we can apply.
Dont know enough to say which of discreetly or secretly goes better, but most to all benefits of open seem to be in the in our dreams category. Id like to support our spiel about the grey order knowing stuff so secretly it is.

[x] Plan All in, but discreet
- [x] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
- [x] [REP] Head (-3)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

[x] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Head (-3)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
- [x] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

Thomasfoolery · Apr 30, 2022

IronFist said:
An elector count using their authority to attack a participant of the waystone project because they are participating in the project is quite similar to an Empress using her authority to (knowingly or unknowingly) help vampires.
Only it's helping Chaos this time.

This project is a potentially a diplomatic coup for the Empire as well as potentially vital for the fate of the world.

Branalhune going snicker-snack is really not that out there.

Okay, I don't feel like going around in circles over this.

@Boney, apparently I have a worlds different conception of A. How much buy in and backing wider empire has for the project, and B. How much pushback other power brokers are willing to give to Nordland operating within their own demense. Do you mind clarifying?

LadyLynn · Apr 30, 2022

I'm sure there are things we can do if the Nordland EC decides to try and screw with the Waystone Project, but I'm pretty sure killing him isn't one of them.

K von Carstein · Apr 30, 2022

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The Nordlander EC (don't know if we ever learned his name?) is currently the weakest EC and the one with the least support from the wider empire at the moment.

Which means that if Mathilde decides to have a quiet chat with him in the middle of the night about why he shouldn't mess with the people of a certain village, there's not a lot of people he can call on to slap her wrist as retaliation.

Even if he's the weaker, he's still a fricking Elector-Count! We can't exactly go threaten him, especially not in defense of people who are illegal magic users. That's a direct and blatant breach of the Articles.

No EC would let that slide, because it would set the precedent that a LM can threaten them without consequences. The Colleges would throw us to the wolves.

Night_stalker · Apr 30, 2022

[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[X] Plan: Just the Heir

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

Wodger · Apr 30, 2022

[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[x] Plan All in, but discreet
[x] Plan Middle Ground
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[X] [HOUSE] Yes

Parabola · Apr 30, 2022

IronFist said:
I can't believe it's not Xianxia

I could see this Young Master being a fruitful seed for future developments, if Just The Heir wins.

CrimsonOddball said:
People seem to be regarding Tindomiel's asking price as unreasonable, and that actually comes across as rather odd to me
They are effectively offering to contribute, and the only price for contributing is... more contribution?
And their also willing to work on contingency of the Waystones being an absolute success on top of that?
Frankly that is an absurdly generous deal, they're essentially offering to be interns paid in exposure

It's not generosity. Undeniably, if the project is successful they benefit from it - they benefit from having the prestige of helping restore Waystones, or even create new ones if we get that far. Politically, that's pretty strong even if it gets restrained to just Laurelorn. And that's only if things get that far! This isn't an intern working for exposure, it's a political move calculated to be minimal-risk. Worst case scenario for them, the project goes nowhere and whoever gets chosen to help with it loses 'just' a few years of effort.

None of this is bad - the basis of trade is mutual benefit, and certainly we'd both benefit from this. But it's not something they're doing for no reason.

Unless the shrines to Hekarti mess with the Waystones somehow (in which case we'd have sufficient grounds in which to say Tindomiel made the agreement in bad-faith), then the worst that they are is a political move.

Altom · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
- [x] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

K von Carstein · Apr 30, 2022

Belkar said:
Are they in it for prestige and standing? Yes. Obviously. They tell us that much. Are they in it for prestige standing and maybe even intangible benefits for their goddess? Maybe. Depend on how interwoven gods and relations between Houses following those are. Seems likely to me. Is it relevant to us? I say no. Do we care if an elven goddess gets some prestige and recognition over some other? No. Do we care if shed get some intangible benefits, which we cant even speculate about? Even then no. The waystone network is the main weapon against chaos and the vortex keeps Ulthuan afloat. Why should it matter if an elven goddess gets some connection to that?

You do not care about all those things, others very much do. Personally i don't particularly care about the House ´s influence, but I don't fancy a Cytharai goddess getting a big power boost. That wouldn't be intangible, and the fact is that we have no idea if it will boost her and how much if it does is not something I'm willing to risk.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 30, 2022

Honestly, who's going to be writing the history of the project? More than likely it's going to be us. If things go well enough we have the clout to throw around on trying something like getting the Hedgewise recognized as priests or similar, I don't see that it would be that difficult to "Reveal" in the future that the Grey perpetuals were actually them all along, bravely showing up despite the risks and hey shouldn't they be rewarded for that? So playing it safe for now doesn't seem like a huge cost until we see how things shake out. While it does provide the best shield we can give to a very vulnerable group.

Nickan · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

Boney · Apr 30, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Okay, I don't feel like going around in circles over this.

@Boney, apparently I have a worlds different conception of A. How much buy in and backing wider empire has for the project, and B. How much pushback other power brokers are willing to give to Nordland operating within their own demense. Do you mind clarifying?

For most people in the Empire, this falls into one of two categories: Wizards doing Wizard things, which is treated with at best mild and suspicious approval, or Nordland and Middenland slapfighting, which is treaty with weary resignation.

The Elector Count of Nordland is obliged to enforce the laws of the Empire upon the citizens of Nordland. One of those laws is the one against unsanctioned magic use, which the Hedgewise are absolutely guilty of. Mathilde has absolutely no grounds to threaten the Elector Count if he fulfils that obligation against Aksel of Hüven.

Copperscale · Apr 30, 2022

Secretly it is, then

TreP · Apr 30, 2022

Belkar said:
Okay, I dont even... most of the time I am the one for being sufficently paranoid but where comes all of this theyre not offering much and screwing us over talk from?

Imagine, you are a dwarf. Some kind of important one. You are aware of the Project, and you know that dwarfs participating too. Then, after some time, you hear that project was successful. You celebrate. And then you get news, that you can't order your dwarfly-built shiny new Waystones in your home, because Mathilde promised it to some Elves. Worse, they will depict it with symbols of one of their Goddes and will stuck it right on top of your mountain.

I'm oversimplifying this of course, but the point is that Elves demand something we have no right to give them. Not without major consequences.

Tasoli · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] [HOUSE] No
[x] Plan: Just the Heir
- [x] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
- [x] [REP] Heir (-1)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)

Lampshade · Apr 30, 2022

Thoughts on using the remaining Great Deed to propose a reclamation of the nexus at an elector meet? Mathilde is the expert on pushing Chaos back at this point and if we restore the flow, pacify the forest and thus settle the issue, we might get another Deed back out of it.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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