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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
The bear spam in modern Kislev is a bit odd though.
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Yeah, agreed. If you're looking for something to put your mind at ease about that, I'm basically planning to go into the the game assuming the bears everywhere are the result of Kislev doing more or less what we did prepping for the Dum Expedition rather than being a representative slice of their military. Maybe it'll be wrong when the lore entries come out in full, but from our current perspective Kislev's goals map pretty well to the Expedition's and War-Sleds and bear cavalry map pretty well to Land-Ships and Demigryphs.

Also, Ice Guard are cool, which seems to be their most important attribute. If I had to fit them into the way DL manages things, they're probably the Ice mage equivalent of a perpetual apprentice?
 
I want to make it clear that I actually love the Ice Guard. I know some people dislike the High Fantasy elements, but I will admit to liking High Fantasy, which is why I'm liking Age of Sigmar so much more than other people coming from Warhammer Fantasy seem to. I also appreciate woman being included in GW's vision of Warhammer's future, because I severely felt the lack of them in older editions. Logic matters only to a certain extent when I look at Fantasy settings.

My problem with the bear spam isn't necessarily about realism or anything. It's that it gives Kislev a more homogenised feel than I think it deserves. I think it would have been cool to have giant reindeer or whatever, and instead of bear sleds have it be Reindeer sleds or whatever. I like the Elemental Ice Bear, but I also would have loved if Kislev got a Frost Fiend as their big monster, and if they got more of a Russian/Slavic Fantasy thing going by involving the Spirits of the Oblast or creatures from Russian/Slavic stories and culture. I'm holding out hope for the Ungol/Hag Witch DLC pack adding more diversity to Kislev's roster.

I do however understand the bear's relation to Ursun, and the focus on Ursun in the campaign is a justifiable narrative reason for why bears are so prominent in the marketing of current Kislev. If the focus was more on Dazh for example, I would expect more birds involved.
 
So given that the vote seems to have tightened to two options which I am both fine with I thought I'd look into what little information we have right off the bat from Johann

"Gave me time to get the lay of the land. There's definitely something up, but nobody can agree what it is. Hauntings, animal attacks, banditry, cult activity, and portents and omens galore. Plenty of smoke, but nobody can agree what the fire is."

  • Hauntings - This is one of the big ones since it could mean the unquiet dead, it could mean daemons and it could mean fey, either way it would take a significant amount of magic for something to manifest like that. As an outside chance something like this could be faked by magic so best to keep that in mind
  • Animal Attacks - Something is upsetting the natural order, or the natural order is upset with the people of the town, does not take any of the above off the table
  • Bandit Activity - If this is connected to the wider trend I think we can at least start to discount the fey, since they would try to evict and oherwise inconvenience the local bands (BTW has anyone thought of how desperate you would have to be to take up banditry in Warhammer given what else lives in the woods?)
  • Cult Activity - Hard to say without knowing what cult, but I think this also makes the fey less likely to be the issue, fey beings to not generally understand humanity enough to found cults, though of course we could be dealing with two factions now rather than one
  • Omens and portents - this is just noise until we find out what the omens were and who delivered them.
All in all no direction to really sink out teeth into so I do not think solo investigation would be wise, not that it seems to be in any way favored. Also it look to me like necromancers, Chaos or other proscribed cults are more likely than the fey
 
DragonParadox said:
  • Hauntings - This is one of the big ones since it could mean the unquiet dead, it could mean daemons and it could mean fey, either way it would take a significant amount of magic for something to manifest like that. As an outside chance something like this could be faked by magic so best to keep that in mind
Omens and portents - this is just noise until we find out what the omens were and who delivered them.
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Both could be faked by mundane means, just in case this has some political or economical backround.

I mean, faking vague trouble at the border might be part of some plan, though I don't know enough about the situation to guess who would profit from such a thing.
 
Codex said:
My problem with the bear spam isn't necessarily about realism or anything. It's that it gives Kislev a more homogenised feel than I think it deserves. I think it would have been cool to have giant reindeer or whatever, and instead of bear sleds have it be Reindeer sleds or whatever.
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Tbh it's probably going to be dlc units, and I'm okay with that.
 
DragonParadox said:
Hauntings - This is one of the big ones since it could mean the unquiet dead, it could mean daemons and it could mean fey, either way it would take a significant amount of magic for something to manifest like that. As an outside chance something like this could be faked by magic so best to keep that in mind
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A note that Kislev has plenty of restless spirits. I don't feel right calling them "fey" because that's not their origin, and neither ghost or daemon properly conveys what they are either. They're like the Djinn of Araby in that they are localised cultural entities:

"The people of Kislev believe the Gods are the greatest of all otherworldly creatures but also believe there are innumerable lesser spirits who must also be appeased. The nature of such creatures reflects the minds of people they encounter, reinforcing the creature's character and giving rise to traditions particular to Kislev. Throughout Kislev, it is considered right to honour such lesser spirits, for it is a mark of good manners and intelligence to do so. Neglect or disrespect of these spirits is seen as a display of low breeding and ignorance; furthermore, it is just plain unlucky! If a peasant stopped by a spring to drink, he would be wise to ask permission of the spirit that dwelled there first. Perhaps more than most lands, Kislevites have a great many traditions, superstitions, oaths, and expressions that arise in respect to these spirits." Realm of the Ice Queen Page 50

There are many spirits in Kislev, and many are mischeivous or malicious and are rightfully capable of "hauntings" if they are disturbed. Examples include the Domovoi (household spirits), Poluvei and Poludnista (Fertility spirits), Leshii (most relevant as they are forest spirits that wander haunted forests and are more actively malicious), Vodianoi (evil river spirit that drowns people), Rusalka (drowned maiden spirit, believed to have some sort of connection to Vodianoi) and Ryzhnyi Khoziain (evil winged spirit, vague, most likely oblast). The others are probably more likely to wander the Oblast, like Glimmers and the Frostfiend.

The Hag Witches are by far the most skilled in managing, communicating and directing/appeasing these spirits, but I could be wrong and they're not involved. I personally think we can probably get a head start in that direction if we contact them, because part of the problem is in Kislev, and the spirits would certainly know something if they could be corralled.
 
Codex said:
A note that Kislev has plenty of restless spirits. I don't feel right calling them "fey" because that's not their origin, and neither ghost or daemon properly conveys what they are either. They're like the Djinn of Araby in that they are localised cultural entities:

"The people of Kislev believe the Gods are the greatest of all otherworldly creatures but also believe there are innumerable lesser spirits who must also be appeased. The nature of such creatures reflects the minds of people they encounter, reinforcing the creature's character and giving rise to traditions particular to Kislev. Throughout Kislev, it is considered right to honour such lesser spirits, for it is a mark of good manners and intelligence to do so. Neglect or disrespect of these spirits is seen as a display of low breeding and ignorance; furthermore, it is just plain unlucky! If a peasant stopped by a spring to drink, he would be wise to ask permission of the spirit that dwelled there first. Perhaps more than most lands, Kislevites have a great many traditions, superstitions, oaths, and expressions that arise in respect to these spirits." Realm of the Ice Queen Page 50

There are many spirits in Kislev, and many are mischeivous or malicious and are rightfully capable of "hauntings" if they are disturbed. Examples include the Domovoi (household spirits), Poluvei and Poludnista (Fertility spirits), Leshii (most relevant as they are forest spirits that wander haunted forests and are more actively malicious), Vodianoi (evil river spirit that drowns people), Rusalka (drowned maiden spirit, believed to have some sort of connection to Vodianoi) and Ryzhnyi Khoziain (evil winged spirit, vague, most likely oblast). The others are probably more likely to wander the Oblast, like Glimmers and the Frostfiend.

The Hag Witches are by far the most skilled in managing, communicating and directing/appeasing these spirits, but I could be wrong and they're not involved. I personally think we can probably get a head start in that direction if we contact them, because part of the problem is in Kislev, and the spirits would certainly know something if they could be corralled.
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That is a fair critique, when I said 'fey' I meant something like native non chaos spirits. Broadly speaking most of those tend to be isolationist and when they do act to just make mischief it is usually not to the degree of chaos that would call up a Grey Lord Magister.

I think this is more likely a disruption of the status quo by something in the woods than the humans trespassing and causing a reaction is my point, since we do have cults on the Ostmark side.
 
Codex said:
I want to make it clear that I actually love the Ice Guard. I know some people dislike the High Fantasy elements, but I will admit to liking High Fantasy, which is why I'm liking Age of Sigmar so much more than other people coming from Warhammer Fantasy seem to. I also appreciate woman being included in GW's vision of Warhammer's future, because I severely felt the lack of them in older editions. Logic matters only to a certain extent when I look at Fantasy settings.

My problem with the bear spam isn't necessarily about realism or anything. It's that it gives Kislev a more homogenised feel than I think it deserves. I think it would have been cool to have giant reindeer or whatever, and instead of bear sleds have it be Reindeer sleds or whatever. I like the Elemental Ice Bear, but I also would have loved if Kislev got a Frost Fiend as their big monster, and if they got more of a Russian/Slavic Fantasy thing going by involving the Spirits of the Oblast or creatures from Russian/Slavic stories and culture. I'm holding out hope for the Ungol/Hag Witch DLC pack adding more diversity to Kislev's roster.

I do however understand the bear's relation to Ursun, and the focus on Ursun in the campaign is a justifiable narrative reason for why bears are so prominent in the marketing of current Kislev. If the focus was more on Dazh for example, I would expect more birds involved.
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Can't speak for anybody else, but for me bearspam is not only acceptable but actively encouraged:
 
DragonParadox said:
That is a fair critique, when I said 'fey' I meant something like native non chaos spirits. Broadly speaking most of those tend to be isolationist and when they do act to just make mischief it is usually not to the degree of chaos that would call up a Grey Lord Magister.

I think this is more likely a disruption of the status quo by something in the woods than the humans trespassing and causing a reaction is my point, since we do have cults on the Ostmark side.
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I have a possibility in mind after a browse through Realm of the Ice Queen, but we haven't even started so there is no evidence for me to even be able to feasibly suggest it without just throwing it down with the dozens of other possibilities.

The idea was a corrupted Hag Witch, who can certainly cause that much ruckus and has an example of it happening in canon, and the Hag Witches do have a very unpleasant practice that... ugh I might as well just post it:

"Almost everyone assumes that the wise women kill the tainted, so their corrupted spirits cannot come back to haunt the living. The wise women encourage this belief, but it is far from the truth.

Rather, the tainted are taken to remote, hidden communities, where they are enslaved and forced to lend their assistance to the hags for whatever sinister purpose they might have. Most tainted do meet their end quickly through brutal torture or the exhaustion of their life energy for some ritual or another. Those with the stamina to endure the hag's cruel caress are eventually sent north to find their deaths fighting in the Chaos Wastes. The wise women justify their actions with the excuse that the only way a tainted soul can be purified is to fight against the forces that inspired the corruption, and so they instruct the tainted to fight and die for Kislev." Page 43 Realm of the Ice Queen

The Tainted are children born as mutants. This part hit me pretty hard when I read the book.
 
Saidoro said:
Also, Ice Guard are cool, which seems to be their most important attribute. If I had to fit them into the way DL manages things, they're probably the Ice mage equivalent of a perpetual apprentice?
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Looks like it. Presumably the bows are made by the Tzarina herself or perhaps some of her strongest subordinates and then bound to each Guardswoman who can then use her minor magical abilities to keep the enchantment empowered. Also explains nicely why it is all female: the Ice guardswoman must be able of using ( low level ) ice magic and men are banned from it.

Makes me wonder if Colleges can make something similar...
 
Artemis1992 said:
Both could be faked by mundane means, just in case this has some political or economical backround.

I mean, faking vague trouble at the border might be part of some plan, though I don't know enough about the situation to guess who would profit from such a thing.
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That is also fair, but there has been enough trouble to call the eye of the Magister Patriarch of the Jades. I do not think that would be easy to fake with just smoke and mirrors.
 
I have some difficulty believing that the source of this trouble is "mundane" in nature. The area is dominated by individuals who would economically and politically benefit from boosted trade from the Talabec, and Talabecland are in far too tenous a position to be attempting a high risk maneuver to sabotage Ostermark's trade. If they were going to do that, it would likely be around Eisental where the canal is being constructed, not around Bechafen.

If it's not Talabecland, then I can't think of any mundane force that would benefit from causing a ruckus in the woods. The ability to dash the authorities and move across the borders is also something that indicates a level of skill and likely familiarity with the forest. I would be inclined to believe that the force is decidedly not mundane, although what it is is a mystery at the moment. Beastmen, Spirit, Necromancer, Vampire/Undead, Chaos, Rogue Wizard, and even a particularly Cunning Goblin tribe could be performing these tactics.
 
Codex said:
I have a possibility in mind after a browse through Realm of the Ice Queen, but we haven't even started so there is no evidence for me to even be able to feasibly suggest it without just throwing it down with the dozens of other possibilities.

The idea was a corrupted Hag Witch, who can certainly cause that much ruckus and has an example of it happening in canon, and the Hag Witches do have a very unpleasant practice that... ugh I might as well just post it:

"Almost everyone assumes that the wise women kill the tainted, so their corrupted spirits cannot come back to haunt the living. The wise women encourage this belief, but it is far from the truth.

Rather, the tainted are taken to remote, hidden communities, where they are enslaved and forced to lend their assistance to the hags for whatever sinister purpose they might have. Most tainted do meet their end quickly through brutal torture or the exhaustion of their life energy for some ritual or another. Those with the stamina to endure the hag's cruel caress are eventually sent north to find their deaths fighting in the Chaos Wastes. The wise women justify their actions with the excuse that the only way a tainted soul can be purified is to fight against the forces that inspired the corruption, and so they instruct the tainted to fight and die for Kislev." Page 43 Realm of the Ice Queen

The Tainted are children born as mutants. This part hit me pretty hard when I read the book.
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You have to give the writters credit though, that is in line with the actual folklore on Baba Yaga and the like, which is where the hags come from. Yes the plucky young hero or heroine can get away from the clutches of the witch, but it is made clear that they are the exception and not the rule, most die from failing impossible tasks (and worked to death is a good way to present that in a more grounded way)
 
DragonParadox said:
You have to give the writters credit though, that is in line with the actual folklore on Baba Yaga and the like, which is where the hags come from. Yes the plucky young hero or heroine can get away from the clutches of the witch, but it is made clear that they are the exception and not the rule, most die from failing impossible tasks (and worked to death is a good way to present that in a more grounded way)
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The writing for Realm of the Ice Queen is pretty good yeah. I did not know that that part was inspired by actual examples from folklore. Maybe I should read up more on Baba Yaga then.

It's a measure of good writing that it hit hard for me honestly. I like Realm of the Ice Queen. Certainly more than Knights of the Grail.
 
Codex said:
The writing for Realm of the Ice Queen is pretty good yeah. I did not know that that part was inspired by actual examples from folklore. Maybe I should read up more on Baba Yaga then.

It's a measure of good writing that it hit hard for me honestly. I like Realm of the Ice Queen. Certainly more than Knights of the Grail.
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Depending on story she ranges from terrifying but vaguely benevolent witch that helps hero in their task (sometimes for some manner of price) to an active child eater of tremendous appetite. Thats about the sum of it, albeit the mythos varies tremendously, as she is a folklore character that has been spun into stories for at least half a millenium, if not longer.

EDIT: Just a word of warning. There is a Baba Yaga article on Warhammer Wiki. That is not canon. The source for the page is a sort of "magazine" that was unofficial brother to White Dwarf back when it still ran, and as such is merely fan submitted content.
 
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As an aside, I'm actually starting a read through of the End Times. I've procrasinated long enough, I'm biting the bullet and going through the full story. I know some people enjoy seeing my reactions to stuff and they might find what I say to be enlightening in regards to lore, but this thread is pretty far separated from the canonical End Times, so I've been thinking of making an End Times read through thread. The first question is if people are interested enough in that idea to check it out if I do make it. I don't want to create a reaction thread if nobody wants it in the first place. The second is, where would I make the thread?
 
I do wonder. If the myth of Baba Yaga was transformed into Kislevite Hag Witches, is there an equivalent for Koschei or did that just get conflated with Vampires? Sadly probably not a purview of this quest, unless we pursued the Ranaldian High Priest.
 
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Codex said:
As an aside, I'm actually starting a read through of the End Times. I've procrasinated long enough, I'm biting the bullet and going through the full story. I know some people enjoy seeing my reactions to stuff and they might find what I say to be enlightening in regards to lore, but this thread is pretty far separated from the canonical End Times, so I've been thinking of making an End Times read through thread. The first question is if people are interested enough in that idea to check it out if I do make it. I don't want to create a reaction thread if nobody wants it in the first place. The second is, where would I make the thread?
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Yes please I'd read it.
 
Codex said:
As an aside, I'm actually starting a read through of the End Times. I've procrasinated long enough, I'm biting the bullet and going through the full story. I know some people enjoy seeing my reactions to stuff and they might find what I say to be enlightening in regards to lore, but this thread is pretty far separated from the canonical End Times, so I've been thinking of making an End Times read through thread. The first question is if people are interested enough in that idea to check it out if I do make it. I don't want to create a reaction thread if nobody wants it in the first place. The second is, where would I make the thread?
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Your L O R E posts are greatly enjoyable. Please do make that thread.
 
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