Hmm, amazing how Usagi trusting an enemy after one just proved utterly untrustworthy is somehow supposed to be in character. Why not admit you are basing this decision entirely on OOC knowledge, @Simon_Jester? It's silly to pretend otherwise.
Usagi Quest (CK3/Princess Maker) (Sailor Moon)
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This is USAGI you are talking about...
So, despite the sheer impracticality, Usagi isn't the type to care about that, ESPECIALLY with her first impression with him.
I think there are strong arguments for both positions, but what it really comes down to is that I'm willing to accept a higher known risk than the uncertainty that comes with Banishing.
That's really the issue. Banishing has a lot more uncertainty about it, it means the the enemy could do something that we haven't thought of, and that worries me.
Those supporting Banish are basically assuming that the worst case can't be worse than Purifying him right now. (Some have even explicitly said this). I'm not nearly as certain of this as the other voters are, so I feel that Purify is the safer choice. It has risk but the risk is known, no unc-uncs to worry about.
That's really the issue. Banishing has a lot more uncertainty about it, it means the the enemy could do something that we haven't thought of, and that worries me.
Those supporting Banish are basically assuming that the worst case can't be worse than Purifying him right now. (Some have even explicitly said this). I'm not nearly as certain of this as the other voters are, so I feel that Purify is the safer choice. It has risk but the risk is known, no unc-uncs to worry about.
NaanContributor
Provider of delicious flatbread, and nothing else.
- Location
- Hawaii
That is such a false equivalency. Even just based on their observed behavior in the quest, comparing Poisony to Kintoleski is laughable. One was a backstabbing, sadistic bitch who tried to get a bunch of people killed, while the other just had open, peaceful talks with everyone present (including the Youma who attacked him), and didn't initiate violence against anyone when he wasn't being possessed by the former's minions.
May I ask why there is apparently no reason to choose the banish option other than 'guaranteeing we get him as a prize'?
I don't think that's true. I think several people are worried about killing him because they don't think he deserves death. My response though is that Banish does not guarantee he will survive, because it means the enemy has plenty of time to try something to change the situation. It's an unknown risk.
And what is happening here is that some of us discount unknowns, and feel that we just shouldn't consider them because they are unknowns. That's why people keep claiming that Banish is a sure thing when it is not. While others like me, instinctively want to avoid unknown risk, to the point of favoring a known risk over the unknown one.
- Location
- Finland
And how about we don't pretend to be mind readers.
I do not want to make a habit of executing prisoners.
I so do not want to execute prisoners on live TV.
I very much do not want to execute prisoners when they seem to be among the most honorable people we have met so far, and that including some of our allies.
And purify has a change of being basicly just execution.
And so far i have seen no decent arguments on why banishing him now, and finding a way to purify him later without killing him would be a bad option.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
And now you accuse people of lying because they disagree with you. That's a fantastic way to foster healthy discussion.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
If I am understanding you correctly, the main appeal to you of the Purify vote is that, one way or another, the matter is settled. Kintoleski may survive, or he may not, but either way the Fountain is claimed and Kintoleski is no longer a "free radical" that can come back to bite us before we are ready to try extracting the Fountain again. Even if Kintoleski is no longer bound to his lord and has no intention of doing any further harm, Dark Fall or any of the other 5 evil alien organizations may end up trying to brainwash him or harvest the Fountain for themselves or who knows what, which may leave us in a position where we have to fight him again when he ISN'T brainwashed and we don't get ANY of the things we wanted.
...That's understandable. I personally disagree about the relative risks of him left to his own devices (as you yourself have stated), but I can respect your position. It would probably help if we had an idea of exactly how likely it was for the successful extraction if performed right now (do we have to roll a 5 or higher? 8 or higher?). Right now I'm getting the sense that our current toolkit isn't quite designed for the task (i.e. the 1st roll to extract the girl from the painting vs the autosuccess after we found the Moon Rod), so that's why I would prefer to delay.
- Location
- Finland
But it does guarantee we do not kill a surrendered enemy on TV.
And that alone is worth a vote in my opinion.
The, "he might die of unrelated reasons" seems, somewhat implausible, sure it could happen, but i just don't see it as a likely outcome, and could just be people being nervous about unknown.
While "Kintoleski dies at the hands on Sailor Moon after surrendering being shown on the evening news" is a very real and present risk.
Hmm, I got accused of advocating murder because I disagreed with you. But I suppose there's no point in continuing this conversation, hopefully people will choose the right choice rather than what you advocate so dishonestly and hypocritically.
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- Location
- Finland
1. Funny ratings on serious posts are, discouraged, to say the least.
2. Claiming people are lying is generally poor form in a debate without actual evidence.
edit-
I am not sure if this was intended.
But hug ratings in a post calling out rating abuse kinda feels condescending, especially from the person being called out.
So please cut it out.
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That is a decent way of putting it. I'd probably put more emphasis on the unknown nature of the risk of not dealing with it now, but I think I got the point across. Which I feel many just have not understood at all.
It's probably also driven by the fact that this is unlike the Jaedite situation, who is likely to give us important and useful resources to improve future outcomes in the struggle against the Dark Kingdom, and is under Tuxedo Mask's supervision. I'm not getting anything similar here, only risks and no upside. It sounds like he's going to go off on his own, and we aren't going to supervise him or anything, not that we really have the resources to do so either. I mean, if the Pretty Cures were willing to take responsibility for protecting him and making sure he doesn't get into trouble that would be a very different situation. I'd be more willing to take on some unknown risk there, because I'd feel like someone would be ready to intervene in the worst case, and he might be a source of information to the Pretty Cures.
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T-A-C
Yay for insomnia! : Lurker by Nature
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Okay, I don't want to be combative, but would you mind telling me what is worse than:
1) Samui watching Kintoleski being vaporised and perhaps second guessing our motives and deciding to reconsider our partnership with MCAT. (We can definitely never ask them about that spear again...Maybe that's a good thing... XD)
2) The Super Attendant and the rest of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police wondering if we'll enact vigilante justice on non-magical foes.
3) Our chancellor Alice (who I may add is a pacifist) or her father deciding we are too much of a risk to consider supporting us financially.
4) The IMO gaining propaganda to use against us before we try to free the enslaved yokai in the Night Market and sharing it with the other magical governments in order to discredit us.
&
5) Dark Kingdom using this as an example to show why human/youma coexistence is impossible, thus sabotaging us on that front.
This is not even getting into our ultimate goal of re-establishing the Moon Kingdom peacefully, which would kind of be a bit difficult with
6) The documentation of Sailor Moon committing an Internationally Recognized War Crime (# 47. Attacks against Persons Hors de Combat) via media broadcast.
So, yeah. Do tell me. You could convince me to change my vote.
Also, if the purification goes wrong, it will probably make Usagi sad. No one wants that... Except Beryl. Don't be a Beryl. 😋
Edit: In response to Kinto being seen as a prize; I would still be voting for Banish if it was Beryl surrendering right now, in this very scenario we're in. Consider that.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm sorry if the manner in which I personally disagreed with you hurt your feelings, and it's equally unfortunate if other people have made you feel similarly. But in that case, it's your responsibility to respond to that insult in a mature way, instead of lobbing petty insults like you have been—calling people idiotic, accusing someone of being duplicitous by comparing them to politicians and lawyers, accusing half the discussion of lying about why they support the option they do. Because that's what those are, petty insults.
And so is that.
Also, Citation Needed. I am of the opinion that none of the claims you've made in this entire discussion have been adequately demonstrated. Either your claims about the matter being discussed, or your accusations of dishonesty against everyone who disagrees with you. You claim they are true, but you have done nothing to back it up.
But I can't actually force you to respond, or to actually engage with other people you're talking to if you do respond. Those are your decisions to make.
- Location
- Colorado
Just want to be clear, I voted for Purify, but that post wasn't primarily about convincing people to vote that way. I just took exception to Modus_Tollens saying the concern that Kintoleski might come back to fight us later, willingly or not, was 'Out of character knowledge.' It's one of many valid concerns for the characters in the scene to be considering and suggesting otherwise is an annoying and dishonest debate tactic.
On a different note one thing that bugs me about this vote (which is really more of an issue with pretty much every quest structure) is that if something like this came up IRL it would be perfectly fine to ask further questions and get his consent to try purifying him, turning it from 'potential summary execution via Russian Roulette' to 'risky medical procedure.'
Edit: Like in his surrender speech there he gave us three options. We should just be able to say 'We can't accept you returning to the Dark King to fight another day, but it's up to you to pick between the other two. Would you rather give your oath to never return to your home and liege and live out the rest of your life or risk death to be purified and become something new?'
It's not something that can happen because of the quest format, even when it makes more sense for the player character to just ask for clarification or turn to someone standing next to them and say 'Wait aren't you the most qualified person here about this particular thing? I'm fine with whatever you think.'
Sorry for the irrelevant venting.
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Rule 3: Be Civil: This level of condescension is inappropriate conduct for this forum.
Oh, no need to worry. My feelings aren't hurt at all. You've given me a lot of amusement over the past couple days, so I thank you for your help in boosting my mood once more.
Please feel free to continue to feel the wounded party, I hope that gives you as much entertainment as I gain from reading your absurd accusations.
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- He/Him/His
...You really enjoy being condescending, don't you?Oh, no need to worry. My feelings aren't hurt at all. You've given me a lot of amusement over the past couple days, so I thank you for your help in boosting my mood once more.
- Location
- Terror Australis
As someone who is strongly on the Banish side, I don't really care that much about collecting Kintoleski.
I do however oppose potentially killing surrendered individuals and believe it to be seriously unlikely that Usagi would risk doing so.
Please stop pretending those who oppose your opinions don't have good reasons to do so.
- Location
- Where I need to be
[X][Runoff] Banish him
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
[x][Runoff] Purify him