Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Changing my vote. Though the discussion is too fast for me to participate in, I've always been in favor of pursuing AV research since we were in Stirland. Time to actually vote accordingly for once.

Hello fellow one-issue voter. I highly suggest adding the "Engrim" plan to your approval vote as it's the highest voted plan that includes an AV action.

I ctrl-f'ed the vote tally and this was the first thing to pop up when vitae was used.
 
Last edited:
Back on my reread. @BoneyM I have a few questions for you if you don't mind
Sigmaringen - Countess Alexandra von Munsterburg
Shockingly, your words seem to have installed a spine of steel in him, and the rumour mill is quite abuzz with how Countess Alexandria's eldest daughter put her hands where they weren't welcome and Anton had her escorted under guard all the way back to Sigmaringen with a very sternly-worded note to her mother.
Is the Countess of Sigmaringen Alexandra or Alexandria? I assume there's a typo in either one of these, but I don't know which one it is.
Siegfriedhof - Order of the Raven Knights ('Knights of Morr')
Siegfriedhof seems to thrive under the Black Guard, after all.
There's already the Black Guard and the Dreamwalkers here, so I don't think the Fellowship would be a good fit.
So this is confusing me a little bit. As I'm rereading, sometimes it looks like the Raven Knights are the ones in charge of Siegfriedhof, and sometimes it looks like the Black Guard are in charge of Siegfriedhof. My research seems to point to the fact that they're two different Knightly Orders, and there are other paragraphs in DL that indicate that that is the case. The Raven Knights are apparently a branch of the Fellowship, whereas the Black Guard protect Gardens of Morr usually. Are they both in joint control of Siegfriedhof? If so that means the Black Guard are already in league with the Fellowship, so why does Roswita not think the Fellowship would be a good fit?
You lurk nearby for a while just to be certain, and sure enough, every time Cordula von Halstedt or Stefanie Krebs gets within line of sight of the town's walls, word is passed to the castle and he has the meeting room set up with EIC paperwork and he gets them one or two initialled codicils closer to a rather generous trade agreement. After von Halstedt discovers his daughter has delivered free passage to EIC wagons along the Moot Road, both he and Krebs recall their daughters before any more damage can be done.
I'm not looking for exact details of the contract that was signed, as funny as it is, but I assume the free passage through the Moot Road thing was not indefinite right? Would be way too much of a blunder for Von Halstedt's daughter to do that. Not something that could be taken advantage of.
As I'm rereading the story I'm starting to believe that Boney is a geography teacher in disguise as a writer attempting to trick people into learning about geography. I never cared about maps before I read this story.
 
Last edited:
As I'm rereading the story I'm starting to believe that Boney is a geography teacher in disguise as a writer attempting to trick people into learning about geography. I never cared about maps before I read this story.
I've had a similar suspicion with regards to Khazalid. And if you follow the thread discussion, Boney also often has interesting stuff to say about history/historical development (it doesn't appear that much in the updates, compared to the other two points).
 
Last edited:
@BoneyM, what's the legality of murdering people with divine magic? As I understand it, divine magic's claimed to work by the god being the one to work miracles, with the priests just being channels. Could argue it's the god doing the killing, not you. I don't believe Sigmar would throw down flaming comets on anyone that the nobility would openly try to punish you for killing, but I can imagine Ulric or Verena would be quite willing to smite someone even if the Empire's nobility fully disagrees that the person should be murdered. Are you charged with murder or merely accessory? If AV can be used to replicate a god's divine energy and Mathilde made a gun that shot that divine energy, would she legally be a murderer or would it technically still be a god smiting someone?
 
@BoneyM, what's the legality of murdering people with divine magic? As I understand it, divine magic's claimed to work by the god being the one to work miracles, with the priests just being channels. Could argue it's the god doing the killing, not you. I don't believe Sigmar would throw down flaming comets on anyone that the nobility would openly try to punish you for killing, but I can imagine Ulric or Verena would be quite willing to smite someone even if the Empire's nobility fully disagrees that the person should be murdered. Are you charged with murder or merely accessory? If AV can be used to replicate a god's divine energy and Mathilde made a gun that shot that divine energy, would she legally be a murderer or would it technically still be a god smiting someone?
You'd be hard pressed to find witnesses, or at least witnesses the nobility won't discredit, if they want to punish the killer.
Unless the god personally tells them off, they'll get punished.
 
Is the Countess of Sigmaringen Alexandra or Alexandria? I assume there's a typo in either one of these, but I don't know which one it is.

Alexandra, fixed.

So this is confusing me a little bit. As I'm rereading, sometimes it looks like the Raven Knights are the ones in charge of Siegfriedhof, and sometimes it looks like the Black Guard are in charge of Siegfriedhof. My research seems to point to the fact that they're two different Knightly Orders, and there are other paragraphs in DL that indicate that that is the case. The Raven Knights are apparently a branch of the Fellowship, whereas the Black Guard protect Gardens of Morr usually. Are they both in joint control of Siegfriedhof? If so that means the Black Guard are already in league with the Fellowship, so why does Roswita not think the Fellowship would be a good fit?

It's messy and complicated. They're technically two Orders but they have good relations and members are often recruited one way or the other - the Black Guard is more defensive and monastic, whereas the Knights of the Raven are more proactive and have less lifestyle restrictions, so if a Knight is skilled but a poor fit for one Order, they might fit well into the other. The Black Guard is Tilean in origin, but closely affiliated with the Empire's Cult of Morr, whereas the Knights of the Raven are Imperial in origin but closely affiliated with Tilea's Fellowship of the Shroud. The day-to-day business of Siegfriedhof is controlled by the Black Guard, but it is also the site of the chapterhouse of the Knights of the Raven.

Despite the close affiliations between the Black Guard and the Raven Knights, the Raven Knights are viewed with suspicion by the mainstream Cult of Morr due to their affiliations with the Fellowship of the Shroud, who advocate widespread adoption of cremation whereas the Empire's Cult of Morr considers it heresy in all but the most desperate of circumstances.

I'm not looking for exact details of the contract that was signed, as funny as it is, but I assume the free passage through the Moot Road thing was not indefinite right? Would be way too much of a blunder for Von Halstedt's daughter to do that. Not something that could be taken advantage of.

It depends on the exact wording of the agreement, but it could probably be wriggled out of eventually if they put their mind to it.

@BoneyM, what's the legality of murdering people with divine magic? As I understand it, divine magic's claimed to work by the god being the one to work miracles, with the priests just being channels. Could argue it's the god doing the killing, not you. I don't believe Sigmar would throw down flaming comets on anyone that the nobility would openly try to punish you for killing, but I can imagine Ulric or Verena would be quite willing to smite someone even if the Empire's nobility fully disagrees that the person should be murdered. Are you charged with murder or merely accessory? If AV can be used to replicate a god's divine energy and Mathilde made a gun that shot that divine energy, would she legally be a murderer or would it technically still be a god smiting someone?

You might be able to use that argument to slip free of the Empire's primitive and corrupt secular judicial system, but then you're trading that for a Cult's extremely efficient and extremely motivated internal mechanisms who aren't that keen on their Cult's reputation and political interests being damaged by a rogue priest, which would inevitably lead to declarations of heresy and public execution. You'd really be better off sticking to more mundane ways of committing murder.
 
@BoneyM, what's the legality of murdering people with divine magic? As I understand it, divine magic's claimed to work by the god being the one to work miracles, with the priests just being channels. Could argue it's the god doing the killing, not you. I don't believe Sigmar would throw down flaming comets on anyone that the nobility would openly try to punish you for killing, but I can imagine Ulric or Verena would be quite willing to smite someone even if the Empire's nobility fully disagrees that the person should be murdered. Are you charged with murder or merely accessory? If AV can be used to replicate a god's divine energy and Mathilde made a gun that shot that divine energy, would she legally be a murderer or would it technically still be a god smiting someone?
Whats wrong with the good old assassination where no one knows who did it?
Cos im pretty sure Mathilde can get away with those just fine, and doesn't need to fake divine intervention.

Edit:autocorrupt
 
Last edited:
Whats wrong with the good old assassination where no one knows who did it?
Cos im pretty sure Mathilde can get away with those just fine, and doesn't need to fake divine intervention.

Edit:autocorrupt
There's also the fact that in this setting, there's a non-zero chance the god whose power you're faking will get annoyed and either smite you directly or send a few priests/priestesses round to have a 'word' with you.
 
@BoneyM, on the matter of smiting, do the pacifist gods do it? I know in the RPG that a priest of Ranald or Shallya capable of divine magic can be injured or killed by their god for breaking their strictures, but given their nature I'm unsure if that aspect has been transferred to Divided Loyalties. At first glance it feels like it fits better with the interpretation that gods are nothing more than non-sentient energy fields like the winds, rather than the interpretation that they're actual people.
 
@BoneyM, on the matter of smiting, do the pacifist gods do it? I know in the RPG that a priest of Ranald or Shallya capable of divine magic can be injured or killed by their god for breaking their strictures, but given their nature I'm unsure if that aspect has been transferred to Divided Loyalties. At first glance it feels like it fits better with the interpretation that gods are nothing more than non-sentient energy fields like the winds, rather than the interpretation that they're actual people.

There are no pacifist Gods. Ranald frowns on unnecessary violence. Shallya says not to kill except in self-defence. Neither argue that society as a whole should foreswear violence, and both will absolutely kill someone who foreswear their vows badly enough.
 
In case anyone's wondering, this is the updated list of Knightly Orders/Monastic Orders/Secular Orders that have appeared or been mentioned in DL and by Boney (that I found, I'm not going through all 10k Boney posts, just the ones I remember):

Black Guard, Raven Knights, Order of the Sacred Scythe, Knights of the Vengeful Sun, Knights of the Blazing Sun, Knights of Sigmar's Blood, Order of the Black Rose, Knights Panther, Order of the Black Bear, Reiksguard, Winter Wolves, White Wolves, Knights of Taal's Fury, Longshanks, Order of the Shroud, Fellowship of the Shroud, Dreamwalkers, Andanti, Helhunten's Redeemers, Holy Order of the Templars of Sigmar, Order of the Stone Wall, Order of Guardians, Order of Grungni's Pick, Knights Encarmine, Knights of the Golden Lion, Knights of the Broken Sword, Magisters Vigilant, Knights Mariner, Stormguard, Tsarevich Pavel Society, Priory of the Spear, Knights of the Everlasting Light, Order of the Hammer of Sigmar.

I've excluded Guilds, Companies and Military Regiments for the moment, as I'm making a different list for them. The list is sort of arbitrary, but I hope that when I'm done with the absolute monster of a post that I'm gonna be done with sometime in the next six months, it'll feel like you're a Grey Magister who gets a memory packet unlocked whenever you click a spoiler.
 
There are no pacifist Gods. Ranald frowns on unnecessary violence. Shallya says not to kill except in self-defence. Neither argue that society as a whole should foreswear violence, and both will absolutely kill someone who foreswear their vows badly enough.
I did mean pacifist in the self-defence term (though given the very varied interpretations of the word I was remiss in not specifying), but that Shallya's willing to kill those who break their vows is still confusing given the self-defence clause. Is she defending herself from the bad reputation of the oath-breaker's actions? Or is it that if they're breaking her strictures to that extent, she counts them as equivalent to beastmen and Chaos cultists in regards to being allowed to kill them without restriction?
 
There are no pacifist Gods. Ranald frowns on unnecessary violence. Shallya says not to kill except in self-defence. Neither argue that society as a whole should foreswear violence, and both will absolutely kill someone who foreswear their vows badly enough.
How proactive is Shallya with regards to self-defense? Specifically, I would expect that any chaos cultist (especially Nurgle) counts as a valid target, because they're considered antithetical to life in general and if they're not currently trying to, it's only a matter of time.
 
How proactive is Shallya with regards to self-defense? Specifically, I would expect that any chaos cultist (especially Nurgle) counts as a valid target, because they're considered antithetical to life in general and if they're not currently trying to, it's only a matter of time.
I would assume going after chaos and beastmen would count as self defense pretty much always.
 
I did mean pacifist in the self-defence term (though given the very varied interpretations of the word I was remiss in not specifying), but that Shallya's willing to kill those who break their vows is still confusing given the self-defence clause. Is she defending herself from the bad reputation of the oath-breaker's actions? Or is it that if they're breaking her strictures to that extent, she counts them as equivalent to beastmen and Chaos cultists in regards to being allowed to kill them without restriction?
I don't think Mathilde can claim to know the mind of Shallya.
(Other than that they both have a soft spot for Ranald).
 
I did mean pacifist in the self-defence term (though given the very varied interpretations of the word I was remiss in not specifying), but that Shallya's willing to kill those who break their vows is still confusing given the self-defence clause. Is she defending herself from the bad reputation of the oath-breaker's actions? Or is it that if they're breaking her strictures to that extent, she counts them as equivalent to beastmen and Chaos cultists in regards to being allowed to kill them without restriction?

Shallya is not bound by the tenets of the Cult of Shallya.

How proactive is Shallya with regards to self-defense? Specifically, I would expect that any chaos cultist (especially Nurgle) counts as a valid target, because they're considered antithetical to life in general and if they're not currently trying to, it's only a matter of time.

There's a fairly widely-held belief in the Cult of Shallya that the killing of a Nurglite is automatically self-defence. But it bears repeating that the stricture against killing isn't them saying that killing shouldn't happen at all, they're saying that the Priests of Shallya should not be the ones doing it, and they provide a great deal of material support for other people doing necessary killing.
 
If theres no intent to cause terror is it just indiscriminate and massive scale manslaughter?
If the Imperial legal system works like a normal Early Modern state, they don't actually give a shit whether it's "terrorism" or "indiscriminate mass manslaughter."

They just torture you horribly to death for [insert name of crime here], optionally in front of a crowd of the survivors of the city you just killed.

Because the penalty for all crimes on that scale is "tortured horribly to death."

Shallya is not bound by the tenets of the Cult of Shallya.
This is an important point.

In most polytheistic religions, the gods are not simply personifications of values that they personally exemplify.

Thor is the god of thunder; he is not the god of Storminess with a personality utterly dominated by being maximally stormy at all times. Ares is the god of war; that doesn't mean war is all he does or that he is incapable of ever partaking in non-war activities or choosing to act in a way that reduces the total amount of warfare going on at a particular moment.

When a priest of Shallya takes vows, they are making promises about their behavior. They are not promising to emulate Shallya as such; they are promising to do what Shallya wants. Shallya may want her priests to be relatively pacifist; this does not mean Shallya is pacifist herself or that she is above whistling up some support from less pacifist individuals if she has need of their services.
 
There's a fairly widely-held belief in the Cult of Shallya that the killing of a Nurglite is automatically self-defence. But it bears repeating that the stricture against killing isn't them saying that killing shouldn't happen at all, they're saying that the Priests of Shallya should not be the ones doing it, and they provide a great deal of material support for other people doing necessary killing.
In the case of Nurglites, I believed you've pointed out that self-defence as a requirement straight up isn't necessary. "No killing except in self-defence or against Nurgle." No loophole required.

EDIT: Here we go.
The stricture against killing has exceptions for self-defence and against 'servants of the Fly Lord'. Another stricture explicitly says that those servants should be hunted down.
 
Last edited:
I would assume going after chaos and beastmen would count as self defense pretty much always.
It gets a bit iffy in the edge cases. 'Cultist' is a sliding scale, from temptation to full-on fallen. Shallya probably frowns on murdering people on the tempation end preemptively.
There's a fairly widely-held belief in the Cult of Shallya that the killing of a Nurglite is automatically self-defence. But it bears repeating that the stricture against killing isn't them saying that killing shouldn't happen at all, they're saying that the Priests of Shallya should not be the ones doing it, and they provide a great deal of material support for other people doing necessary killing.
That makes a lot of sense. So the restriction is not only a matter of Shallya disliking killing (though that is the main factor in normal circumstances), it's also a matter of 'do what you're good at, and let/help others do what they're good at'. The healer isn't there for DPS.
 
In the case of Nurglites, I've believed you pointed out that self-defence as a requirement straight up isn't necessary. "No killing except in self-defence or against Nurgle". No loophole required.

It's not a loophole, it's the reason. The tenets of a Cult were not handed down from the Gods on stone tablets, they're the code of conduct of an organization. They're not saying 'here are the rules that our God has given us', they're 'this is how a person who dedicates themselves to our God should act, based on our understanding of Them, therefore we require it of our members'.
 
Back
Top