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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Annatar said:
Uh what kind of honor is lieing to your liege lord and sheltering the child of the heir to the previous dynasty? Lieing to your wife and the rest of your family while still preaching about it to your kids? That's not honor.

I really don't get what the hell you're talking about man.
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That was personal honor. Protecting a baby even though it may ruin him.
DragonParadox said:
Ned Stark was never a perfectly honorable man. He might have looked that way in canon in KL but that was because he was surrounded by those with no honor. A perfectly honorable man would not have served a king who was content to be crowned over the bodies of children or (depending on your perspective on what honor is) he would not have hid Jon. Honor is itself a social construct that everyone has to interpret like courage or generosity.
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No, he was honorable enough to be considered an honorable man.

Snitching is a bitch move below that.
 
Acolyte said:
That was personal honor. Protecting a baby even though it may ruin him.

No, he was honorable enough to be considered an honorable man.

Snitching is a bitch move below that.
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What the fuck is an honorable man then? Also no, it wasn't just personal honor. Him taking in Jon could have ruined his family. It could him, his wife and his children executed and have his family's position as Lords stripped from them. Kings irl have done more for less, sheltering one of only 3 potential threats to the new dynasties legitimacy is not honorable. He did it because Jon was his nephew, out of love, not honor.
 
Acolyte said:
That was personal honor. Protecting a baby even though it may ruin him.

No, he was honorable enough to be considered an honorable man.

Snitching is a bitch move below that.
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Baristan 'I listened to the king rape his wife every night' Selmy was considered an honorable man. Honor is in the eye of the beholder

But getting back to Ned if he believed that Robert was the sort of man who would kill the infant Jon for who his father was (which he clearly did) then he believed Robert was himself dishonorable and yet he accepted him as king, accepted that his dishonorable man should be the master of all the destinies of a continent.

Hell we even get to see in canon first hand the fruits of Ned's failings when Robert orders the assassination of Daenerys still little more than a child herself and Eddard Stark still bows his head, still remains hand to a man who would hire assassins to kill an innocent girl.

Like there is no way to make anyone in ASOIAF come out like a saint.
 
[X] Forced to abdicate in favor of his son (seen as fair but likely to trouble lords as it is meddling in internal House business for something other than treason)
 
DragonParadox said:
Baristan 'I listened to the king rape his wife every night' Selmy was considered an honorable man. Honor is in the eye of the beholder

But getting back to Ned if he believed that Robert was the sort of man who would kill the infant Jon for who his father was (which he clearly did) then he believed Robert was himself dishonorable and yet he accepted him as king, accepted that his dishonorable man should be the master of all the destinies of a continent.

Hell we even get to see in canon first hand the fruits of Ned's failings when Robert orders the assassination of Daenerys still little more than a child herself and Eddard Stark still bows his head, still remains hand to a man who would hire assassins to kill an innocent girl.

Like there is no way to make anyone in ASOIAF come out like a saint.
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I don't get what you are trying to do here. I hate the bitch already. I don't need to be told he was a dishonorable man, because he is acting like a snitch.
 
Acolyte said:
I don't get what you are trying to do here. I hate the bitch already. I don't need to be told he was a dishonorable man, because he is acting like a snitch.
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Genuinely, talking to his peers and other members of his political machine about one of their members about to possibly make a fool of themselves in front of the entire political body of their new overlord is one of the least bad things the man has ever done in his life.

And I cannot for the life of me figure out why the fuck you're so hung up over it.
 
DragonParadox said:
Baristan 'I listened to the king rape his wife every night' Selmy was considered an honorable man. Honor is in the eye of the beholder

But getting back to Ned if he believed that Robert was the sort of man who would kill the infant Jon for who his father was (which he clearly did) then he believed Robert was himself dishonorable and yet he accepted him as king, accepted that his dishonorable man should be the master of all the destinies of a continent.

Hell we even get to see in canon first hand the fruits of Ned's failings when Robert orders the assassination of Daenerys still little more than a child herself and Eddard Stark still bows his head, still remains hand to a man who would hire assassins to kill an innocent girl.

Like there is no way to make anyone in ASOIAF come out like a saint.
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Finally someone who pointed that out about Ned. I never knew why everyone thought about him as honorable.
 
Acolyte said:
That was personal honor. Protecting a baby even though it may ruin him.

No, he was honorable enough to be considered an honorable man.

Snitching is a bitch move below that.
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Time for me to plagiarize/paraphrase Strangebloke and/or Perfidious Albion from Alt History again! But Ned's "honorable" reputation is vastly, vastly, vastly overstated in fandom. I'd say he's a good man yes, but in universe outright lying to your liege is not "honorable" in any perspective. Honor is pretty much following the laws and rules of society of which utter dedication to your social superior is one of the core tenants in feudalism. He had, imo good and morally valid reasons to lie, but that isn't the same as honorable. Not to mention the people who state he's honorable are Robert--his bff, people using it pejoratively--Cersei and Littlefinger, and people stating is posthumously for essentially propoganda. Like in canon everyone thinks he not only cheated on Catelyn, but he dragged the byblow back to rub in her face and keep around as a backup heir. That's not what happened but it sure looks like it from certain PoVs.

And I honestly still cannot comprehend what you're so pissed about. Snitching? To Who? Like Manderly is his social equivalent who told him something he was literally going to go public about like the next day. He then discussed said topic with another social peer who had direct stake in the matter. Did Stark sign a Ye Old NDA to never ever discuss anything Manderly told him? I'd see "snitching" more if he idk, went to the Inquisition to try and get Manderly in trouble or similar.

Tomcost said:
Finally someone who pointed that out about Ned. I never knew why everyone thought about him as honorable.
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Fandom falling into the same in unniverse trap as characters in the work itself funnily enough: Conflating morality/being a decent person with "honor"
 
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Part MMMDCCCLXV: In Even Measure
  • Threadmarks
    • In Even Measure ​

    Fifth Day of the Twelfth Month 294 AC

    From the height of the throne Baron Myles Condon looks small indeed, his shoulders hunched, his eyes cast low as he awaits judgement by the throne. He had at least the wit to throw himself upon the mercy of the court and Curia rather than try to defend indefensible actions. Yet this one grey-haired man garbed in a woolen cloak of like hue may yet move the policies and perceptions of far greater houses.

    "Myles Condon, Baron of Red Ridge, I find that your conduct was unfitting of a judge invested with the powers of Imperial justice." You do not say high and low justice as you had done before, lexical precision is called for in this instance. Imperial justice is that which binds the baron and his bannermen in equal measure, that which guaranteed by your seal and your pledge. "For the crime you have committed, misusing the tools entrusted to you, you are to be stripped of your position as judge."

    You pause just long enough for the words to sink in and for some to wonder if this would be the full judgement. "Yet your position of magistrate is not born of any external source or delegated title, that power is born of your title as baron and it is that title and that responsibility you failed as surely as you failed the crown. For this crime you are to be stripped of the position of head of the House, which your designated heir shall assume at once. Dismissed."

    There is a part of you that wanted to add throwing him in prison for good measure, but that would have been stacking too much humiliation onto his kin. Lords had rebelled for lesser reasons and faced with odds just as impossible.

    Instead, you glance around the hall. Many of the high lords and governors of the eastern provinces, seem very pleased indeed that the edge of the law was not blunted in this instance. By contrast there are various degrees of surprise and weariness to be seen in the eyes of most of the Dukes of the West, even Manderly himself, who had demanded a punishment. What it says about how he sees the law that he thought the case was worth ramming through general exceptions for religions, but not disinheriting the perpetrator, you are not sure you even want to know. Among the self-avowed Dragon's Men, there is less surprise and more grim acceptance, that to betray the trust of the crown in such a manner is 'as treason'. As for those who know you personally, be they lord or governor or marshal, well, there is far less surprise to be seen.

    As the session is adjourned you seek out the mood of the lower chamber, for even your eye is not swift enough to read the faces of so many so swiftly. In many ways you find it much the same division with those of Essos applauding punishment for barbaric practices, though most interesting of all the dozen or so western Voices who had already taken their seats seem to scent a sea change... well, no not that exactly, the change had already taken place.

    Much as it might sting your pride, it is better to say that now is the first time they actually believe that the promises are true and changes are real. Though this might have been one noble killing another, it could just as easily have been the death of a merchant or a guildsman. Indeed, in such instances it often is that. That recognition is worth a few ruffled feathers.

    What do you want to see next?

    [] The Bulwark of North

    [] The Great Basin

    [] Further improvements in permeable Force Effects

    [] Weapons for the Dawn

    [] Write in

    OOC: This decision does not come with an obvious malus to rolls like the inquisition one since it is up to the perception of various people and especially lords. Curia politics do not get abstracted, but you can expect to hear more of this.
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • DragonParadox said:
    My point is he was never a paragon of honor, people are complicated and I try to reflect that in the characters I write.
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    I mean sure, I should have hated him more. I dunno what you want from me.
    A_Somebody said:
    And I honestly still cannot comprehend what you're so pissed about. Snitching? To Who? Like Manderly is his social equivalent who told him something he was literally going to go public about like the next day. He then discussed said topic with another social peer who had direct stake in the matter. Did Stark sign a Ye Old NDA to never ever discuss anything Manderly told him? I'd see "snitching" more if he idk, went to the Inquisition to try and get Manderly in trouble or similar.
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    You do not talk about things that have been confided in you. Seems a basic concept.
     
    Acolyte said:
    I mean sure, I should have hated him more. I dunno what you want from me.

    You do not talk about things that have been confided in you. Seems a basic concept.
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    I don't know man this is basically you just making a mountain out of a molehill and working yourself up over a nothing burger.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    I do not want anything, just explaining my conception of a character in light of his actions in the source material.
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    Your writing is fine. Just doesn't mean I have to like the character actions.
    Annatar said:
    I don't know man this is basically you just making a mountain out of a molehill and working yourself up over a nothing burger.
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    It's not like I threw a bitch fest and demand DP change the previous chapter. I expressed my frustration and moved on.
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    nstead you glance around the hall. Many of the high lords and governors of the eastern provinces, seem very pleased indeed that the edge of the law was not blunted in this instance. By coontrast there are various degrees of surprise and weariness to be seen in the eyes of most of the Dukes of the West, even Manderly himself who had demanded a punishment. What it says about how he sees the law that he thought the case was worth ramming through general exceptions for religions, but not disinheriting the perpetrator you are not sure you even want to know. Among the self avowed Dragon's Men there is less surprise and more grim acceptance, that to betray the trust of the crown in such a manner is 'as treason'. As for those who know you personally , be they lord or governor or marshal well there is far less surprise to be seen.

    As the session adjourns you seek out the mood of the lower chamber for even your eye is not swift enough to read the faces of so many so swiftly. In many ways you find it much the same division with those of Essos applauding punishment for barbaric practices, though most interesting of all the dozen or so western Voices who had already taken their seats seem to scent a sea change... well no not that exactly, the change had already taken place.

    Much as it might sting your pride it is better to say that now is the first time they actually believe that the promises are true and changes are real. Though this might have been one noble killing another it could just as easily have been the death of a merchant, or a guildsman indeed in such instances it often is that. That recognition is worth a few ruffled feathers.
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    Surprise, Westeros! Imperial Law is bigger than you are, and it's here to stay.

    Now move over, your sewage system is a disgrace.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    In Even Measure ​

    Fifth Day of the Twelfth Month 294 AC

    From the height of the throne Baron Myles Condon looks small indeed, his shoulders hunched, his eyes cast low as he awaits judgement by the throne. He had at least the wit to throw himself upon the mercy of the court and Curia rather than try to defend indefensible actions. Yet this one grey-haired man garbed in a woolen cloak of like hue may yet move the policies and perceptions of far greater houses.

    "Myles Condon, Baron of Red Ridge, I find that your conduct was unfitting of a judge invested with the powers of Imperial justice." You do not say high and low justice as you had done before, lexical precision is called for in this instance. Imperial justice is that which binds the baron and his bannermen in equal measure, that which guaranteed by your seal and your pledge. "For the crime you have committed, misusing the tools entrusted to you, you are to be stripped of your position as judge."

    You pause just long enough for the words to sink in and for some to wonder if this would be the full judgement. "Yet your position of magistrate is not born of any external source or delegated title, that power is born of your title as baron and it is that title and that responsibility you failed as surely as you failed the crown. For this crime you are to be stripped of the position of head of the House, which your designated heir shall assume at once. Dismissed."

    There is a part of you that wanted to add throwing him in prison for good measure, but that would have been stacking too much humiliation onto his kin. Lords had rebelled for lesser reasons and faced with odds just as impossible.

    Instead, you glance around the hall. Many of the high lords and governors of the eastern provinces, seem very pleased indeed that the edge of the law was not blunted in this instance. By contrast there are various degrees of surprise and weariness to be seen in the eyes of most of the Dukes of the West, even Manderly himself, who had demanded a punishment. What it says about how he sees the law that he thought the case was worth ramming through general exceptions for religions, but not disinheriting the perpetrator, you are not sure you even want to know. Among the self-avowed Dragon's Men, there is less surprise and more grim acceptance, that to betray the trust of the crown in such a manner is 'as treason'. As for those who know you personally, be they lord or governor or marshal, well, there is far less surprise to be seen.

    As the session is adjourned you seek out the mood of the lower chamber, for even your eye is not swift enough to read the faces of so many so swiftly. In many ways you find it much the same division with those of Essos applauding punishment for barbaric practices, though most interesting of all the dozen or so western Voices who had already taken their seats seem to scent a sea change... well, no not that exactly, the change had already taken place.

    Much as it might sting your pride, it is better to say that now is the first time they actually believe that the promises are true and changes are real. Though this might have been one noble killing another, it could just as easily have been the death of a merchant or a guildsman. Indeed, in such instances it often is that. That recognition is worth a few ruffled feathers.

    What do you want to see next?

    [] The Bulwark of North

    [] The Great Basin

    [] Further improvements in permeable Force Effects

    [] Weapons for the Dawn

    [] Write in

    OOC: This decision does not come with an obvious malus to rolls like the inquisition one since it is up to the perception of various people and especially lords. Curia politics do not get abstracted, but you can expect to hear more of this. Not yet edited.
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    Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
     
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