A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- Germany
Our "encourage Migration to certain places" actions might belong to Admin too.
If, for example, we want to support the stronger settlement of the North.
FINALLY I read all the alert about this damn quest, it took me nearly three weeks because you guys like to update like there is not tomorrow.
seeing much of the dicussion about the system and what it means this quest to go to be intersting, I dont thing I can offer a new perpective about it, but reading how conquert of westeros when exactly how it did and my perpective I can noted something it have being sorta kinda bug me for a while, so I will said it:
I feel this quest suffer for what I call hostile element take over.
What the hell is that, you ask(well, you are probably asking something else but I imagine you are asking that), is a thing I saw a lot in fanfics were you introduce a element into a existing world or see what happen or doing a crossover element, you can see this on some quest that can bound down to "X chararter but with worm" or "this chararted is exalted", what happen afterward is that as the quest or fanfic continue this element become more and more noticable until it pretty much take over the story, this is notorious of said element come from diferent series with a diferent tone and implication of it, to give a example, i used to be in the mortal kombat fandom and many, many fanfic have their chararter engage in what pretty much dragon ball style over the top fights or use secret techniques like it was an anime or comic, I even guilty of this myself since my chararter when from "I can tank some hits" to "is pretty mcuh doomsday in term of survival", eventually many of this fits become and anime with mortal kombat cloth with all that imply.
And after seen the conquest of westeros, I find out this quest suffer that not once but TWICE.
First is the most obvious here: You are using D&D style magic and cosmology to ASOFAI, which it always being jarring because not matter how you slice it, the two cant be more broadly diferent: in song of ice and fire is mostly a sword and sorcery setting, that draw heavly from elric stormbringer(im pretty damn sure stannis is a eternal champion expy) and conan the cimmerian, were morality is relative and individualistic and magic is weird mystherious and probably dangerous, Melisandre is one part saruman and one part cymeril and her use of magic as specific and done with showmanship in order to draw and specific asset, it is a sort of primordial force you cant quite pin down and it can make you inhuman.......
This....is not how D&D magic works, dugegon and dragon have what is probably the most clean, safe and reliable magic system ever, is pretty easy to get, it dosent harm the users beyond mishap or misused , they are mostly a a set of power that can do whatever you want with not string atach to it, even stuff like returing someone from the dead or becoming inmortal which can be use quite neutral way, in this set up having more mages is good, learingmore magic is must be requirement and disliking magic is always seen as foolish or stupidty, the answer to a bad guy with magic is to find a good guy with even more magic, this is the same for cosmologiy of D&D is one of the most moralitstic thing ever, with diferent afterlife for diferent kind set of morality perfectly(in theory at least) align to anyone and is also a place were god arent mysterious or elderich but mostly being with their own wants that you can in theory contact with little dificulty.
But you see, this isnt the only hostile element take over there is another here, which is pretty damn inisual on it self and is the fact this quest is also a empire bulding quest , which means conquering stuff and making your prefer polis great again is the objective which also means devoping stuff often have a great priority and given D&D is so easy to use.....you can see were im going, isnt? dugegon and dragon always have that issue and their only way to resolve it is with indiscriminate amount of author fiat because magic exist for the pleasure of the adventure group, you are not supused to craft new way to use magic because you are supused to resolve problems by aventuring, close and personal.....
But as we see neither of those things happen, westeros pay dearly by not getting the memo that "magic is good and more magic is better" by using so little mages beyond slaving everyone in order to mantain social stability and by making an empire, we pretty much shed any need to be close and personal against other foe since our magical, economical and military might outwight them by twenty to one, visery could honestly pull is atention elsewhere and auto resolve the conquerer of westeros and be done with it, which it draw to another thing here: how much westeros matter.
You see, this is a weird thing because chararter wise, retaking the iron throne was like....EVERYTHING for viserys, as restoring the targaryen line and it move many, many storyline on the books, from varys to dany and everyone in between, it was also a place of narrative importance and weight since 80% canon chararter are from there, in short what happen there should matter by simple law of canon importance but.....it sorta dosent? not only the conquering of westeros is a cakewalk but is mostly a drain of resource as now you have to lift a backward place who hate magic(which is stupid because again, D&D magic being so easy and good to use means its comon sense) and is outdated since we already in a 18-19 empire with hints of magical transhumanism that make the idea of targaryen name even irrelvant since honestly speaking, visery as individual matter most, this make the narrative weight of finally dealing iron throne kidna sorta.....there, mattering more because canon importance than any real reason why visery(and by extention, us) should give a damn about it.
I must be honest, reading the invasion and how it went I almost end kinda sorta rooting for twyn a little bit, not morrality of couse but because he was pretty much the underdog there, I didnt expect him to win, but I kinda expect him to deliver a punch or two before it when down, something to remenber at least but it when like paper tissue and the best he deliver was is own words against viserys in the court, I also end pittying Lana lannister because is more or less how I actually imagine someone with magic in planetos: she have this power, then she find up they are this big monsters under the sea, them she try her best to stop it with limited knowlage she have and little by little she make other people less human because of it until it is to late, I really wanted to said anything to stop her fate and yet she die, narrative speaking? that was good, that was really good, I still feel sad about it but in a good way.
So this is more or less my observation about it, it feel in song of ice and fire terms visery stop being visery by chararter devoptment to the point taking the iron throne feel superflual to him, meanwhile in D&D viserys pretty much become elmister: someone way to powerfull to aventure anymore and that serve more as helping guide to other chararter to grow, at the same time is intersting how the biggest foe are hell or mindflayers and other D&D concept rather than a song and fire one, which in my view it show how former overtake the later to the point I find kinda hard to take the other as sort of a threat.
so...that it, that is my take on whole thing, I dont know if will serve of anything but I need to said it, also I need to clarify I like this quest and I think is good, you dont go for so bloody long without having legitimate good or intersting to said and clearly it does, but I do feel it kinda strugle to mantain coherent between the sources it issues into crafting is own identity.
Also, sorry if my english bother anyone here, is not my first language and it really show the longer the post is, I just need to vent this out of my head.
seeing much of the dicussion about the system and what it means this quest to go to be intersting, I dont thing I can offer a new perpective about it, but reading how conquert of westeros when exactly how it did and my perpective I can noted something it have being sorta kinda bug me for a while, so I will said it:
I feel this quest suffer for what I call hostile element take over.
What the hell is that, you ask(well, you are probably asking something else but I imagine you are asking that), is a thing I saw a lot in fanfics were you introduce a element into a existing world or see what happen or doing a crossover element, you can see this on some quest that can bound down to "X chararter but with worm" or "this chararted is exalted", what happen afterward is that as the quest or fanfic continue this element become more and more noticable until it pretty much take over the story, this is notorious of said element come from diferent series with a diferent tone and implication of it, to give a example, i used to be in the mortal kombat fandom and many, many fanfic have their chararter engage in what pretty much dragon ball style over the top fights or use secret techniques like it was an anime or comic, I even guilty of this myself since my chararter when from "I can tank some hits" to "is pretty mcuh doomsday in term of survival", eventually many of this fits become and anime with mortal kombat cloth with all that imply.
And after seen the conquest of westeros, I find out this quest suffer that not once but TWICE.
First is the most obvious here: You are using D&D style magic and cosmology to ASOFAI, which it always being jarring because not matter how you slice it, the two cant be more broadly diferent: in song of ice and fire is mostly a sword and sorcery setting, that draw heavly from elric stormbringer(im pretty damn sure stannis is a eternal champion expy) and conan the cimmerian, were morality is relative and individualistic and magic is weird mystherious and probably dangerous, Melisandre is one part saruman and one part cymeril and her use of magic as specific and done with showmanship in order to draw and specific asset, it is a sort of primordial force you cant quite pin down and it can make you inhuman.......
This....is not how D&D magic works, dugegon and dragon have what is probably the most clean, safe and reliable magic system ever, is pretty easy to get, it dosent harm the users beyond mishap or misused , they are mostly a a set of power that can do whatever you want with not string atach to it, even stuff like returing someone from the dead or becoming inmortal which can be use quite neutral way, in this set up having more mages is good, learingmore magic is must be requirement and disliking magic is always seen as foolish or stupidty, the answer to a bad guy with magic is to find a good guy with even more magic, this is the same for cosmologiy of D&D is one of the most moralitstic thing ever, with diferent afterlife for diferent kind set of morality perfectly(in theory at least) align to anyone and is also a place were god arent mysterious or elderich but mostly being with their own wants that you can in theory contact with little dificulty.
But you see, this isnt the only hostile element take over there is another here, which is pretty damn inisual on it self and is the fact this quest is also a empire bulding quest , which means conquering stuff and making your prefer polis great again is the objective which also means devoping stuff often have a great priority and given D&D is so easy to use.....you can see were im going, isnt? dugegon and dragon always have that issue and their only way to resolve it is with indiscriminate amount of author fiat because magic exist for the pleasure of the adventure group, you are not supused to craft new way to use magic because you are supused to resolve problems by aventuring, close and personal.....
But as we see neither of those things happen, westeros pay dearly by not getting the memo that "magic is good and more magic is better" by using so little mages beyond slaving everyone in order to mantain social stability and by making an empire, we pretty much shed any need to be close and personal against other foe since our magical, economical and military might outwight them by twenty to one, visery could honestly pull is atention elsewhere and auto resolve the conquerer of westeros and be done with it, which it draw to another thing here: how much westeros matter.
You see, this is a weird thing because chararter wise, retaking the iron throne was like....EVERYTHING for viserys, as restoring the targaryen line and it move many, many storyline on the books, from varys to dany and everyone in between, it was also a place of narrative importance and weight since 80% canon chararter are from there, in short what happen there should matter by simple law of canon importance but.....it sorta dosent? not only the conquering of westeros is a cakewalk but is mostly a drain of resource as now you have to lift a backward place who hate magic(which is stupid because again, D&D magic being so easy and good to use means its comon sense) and is outdated since we already in a 18-19 empire with hints of magical transhumanism that make the idea of targaryen name even irrelvant since honestly speaking, visery as individual matter most, this make the narrative weight of finally dealing iron throne kidna sorta.....there, mattering more because canon importance than any real reason why visery(and by extention, us) should give a damn about it.
I must be honest, reading the invasion and how it went I almost end kinda sorta rooting for twyn a little bit, not morrality of couse but because he was pretty much the underdog there, I didnt expect him to win, but I kinda expect him to deliver a punch or two before it when down, something to remenber at least but it when like paper tissue and the best he deliver was is own words against viserys in the court, I also end pittying Lana lannister because is more or less how I actually imagine someone with magic in planetos: she have this power, then she find up they are this big monsters under the sea, them she try her best to stop it with limited knowlage she have and little by little she make other people less human because of it until it is to late, I really wanted to said anything to stop her fate and yet she die, narrative speaking? that was good, that was really good, I still feel sad about it but in a good way.
So this is more or less my observation about it, it feel in song of ice and fire terms visery stop being visery by chararter devoptment to the point taking the iron throne feel superflual to him, meanwhile in D&D viserys pretty much become elmister: someone way to powerfull to aventure anymore and that serve more as helping guide to other chararter to grow, at the same time is intersting how the biggest foe are hell or mindflayers and other D&D concept rather than a song and fire one, which in my view it show how former overtake the later to the point I find kinda hard to take the other as sort of a threat.
so...that it, that is my take on whole thing, I dont know if will serve of anything but I need to said it, also I need to clarify I like this quest and I think is good, you dont go for so bloody long without having legitimate good or intersting to said and clearly it does, but I do feel it kinda strugle to mantain coherent between the sources it issues into crafting is own identity.
Also, sorry if my english bother anyone here, is not my first language and it really show the longer the post is, I just need to vent this out of my head.
Not to worry, i understood perfectly. As for the concerns, they are things I have noticed as well and other readers also. Obviously I cannot fix the past, but I will not try to present a more balanced quest with the baseline that we have. Hope you are willing to stick around in spite of the flaws. It's always nice to see new readers and even more so thoughtful critique.
- Location
- Germany
I'd rather not. It feels like destroying what little is left of any uniqueness of the setting.
You would face significant resistance, like that is the entire point of Bolton's faction and for good reason. Nothing resonates in the North like 'foreigners are taking over', mostly because they are right. Five generations ago they were not all speaking Common.
Dont worry, in retrospect everyone is wise(great, now im daenerys with her heavy use of aphorism), I feel it was inevitable this issue will happen even if you know it from the start simply because people wanted all that stuff: they want the heavy moral drama and moral relativism of a song of ice and fire with heavy use of magic(I mean there the steriotype suficien velocity will pick mage eleven out of ten times) and the fact you remove the flow fiat break allow people to nerd the fuck out.
And maybe is me, but at times I feel more drawn to what happen outside the main chararter, stuff like Qarth, Yi ti and the rest, mostly because it feel somewhat more organic that the heavy micromanaging we do everywhere.
That is maybe because of it that I like the omake more than anyone, I like to see how the world just funtion, like someone see a colony of ants, I will admit I LOVE the coronation of visery and the forein dignataries bring gifts and all that, if anything we should send one to them in return as polite gesture.
- Location
- Germany
Just an example for the action, we might as well try to gain more settlers in the near-Valyrian badlands or somewhere else.
Does the action, in principle, belong under admin actions?
- Location
- Germany
More Public Works / Trade.
Administration is bureaucratic stuff, so I don't feel colonization to fit there. Mostly we need to build the actual colonies and set up enough of an economy that people don't starve to death.
Good night guys, see you tomorrow with the first time Viserys has been buzzed for the last... more than a year I think.
Annatar
Lord of Gifts
- Location
- Pittsburgh
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
I feel as if we have made a terrible mistake...
What's he going to do. We can diplomace, circles around him. We can pretty much make them beg for these kind of changes if we want to.
We use our usual dog whistle of enemies at the door. Instead of demons thos 8t would be the other provences getting richer than them. Then we would turn winter town and white harbour into metropolis that massively improve the life standards of the people and pull their small folks to the cities. By the time we are done with them they will be begging us for immigration.
But it's mostly my fantasy just break up the Intial blocks of power. I have a similar plan for Zherys faction.
Sure you can convince anyone you can reach, now try to do that to every single northern lord down to the landed knight equivalents.... oh and the peasants for good measure, if anything they would like the newcomers even less. You cannot solve wide ranging political issues with personal diplo rolls, not least because as soon as they are not in your presence the likes of Maege and the Greatjon will recall why they were not fans of the whole immigration idea.
I mean we don't need to convince more than 2 lords. Ned and that fat southern guy. After that the better living standard would leach the population from the duckies around it.
Anyway good night mate.
The trouble is the pissed off lords in every other part of the north would become obstructionist. I don't have mechanics for that yet, but trust me you are not going to be able to casually go against a faction's core tenet without some loss, in this case unrest and lost administrative efficiency. As for leeching population... well it depends how the smallfolk take it. These are not Essosi slaves with nowhere to go but the new cities.
I don't get your obsession with this; people are going to form political groups to pursue their own interests, and there isn't anything that can be done about that unless we want to rule a nation of mindless undead or something.
As it stands we have all the central authority and considerable control in every political group that matters. Trying to erase them to force everyone into dogmatic compliance to a central vision not only won't work, it'll more than likely destroy the country before it even really gets started.
- Location
- ?????????
As long as Bolton doesn't try to be obstructionistic about the development we want to do in the North I don't give a shit. Let him have his faction. If he does however, then the gloves come off
Edit: Now I fully hope he isn't that dumb because the man gets shat on enough as it is in ASOIAF fics(deserved though it may be)
Edit: Now I fully hope he isn't that dumb because the man gets shat on enough as it is in ASOIAF fics(deserved though it may be)
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
I'm not against Boltons faction, but I definitly expect them to produce a plan on how to utilize the space and ressources of the North in a sensible manner.
It would be wasteful to leave those vast and empty lands, which are also coincidentally close to our future from for the Short Night, as they are now.
Settlement is one option, but if the Northerners prefer others, I'm happy to listen, just going on as they always have is not among the viable options.
It would be wasteful to leave those vast and empty lands, which are also coincidentally close to our future from for the Short Night, as they are now.
Settlement is one option, but if the Northerners prefer others, I'm happy to listen, just going on as they always have is not among the viable options.
- Location
- United States
As long as the First Men faction produces a plan that can properly use the resources of the North, I don't mind channeling some funding their way. A huge chunk of their issue is population, yeah? Fine. Get healers up there, slash child and infant mortality and while they're at it do what they can to boost fertility.
- Location
- Bear Island
Make a pool of money to be distributed to all families in low population areas based on the number of children in the family. Family size will go up pretty quick and some orphans might find themselves adopted too.
- Location
- ?????????
Our state run