DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
He's under 300, iirc he mentioned being born right around the war against chaos
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Huh, lead everything has almost caught up. We might see late change in the vote after all. It seems (Mathilde's estimation of) Borek's character has made a huge impact.
Y'know, if Belegar is everything we like about dwarfs and very little of what we don't, then Borek is nothing of what we like, and much of what we don't. From the very small slice we've seen so far.
Y'know, if Belegar is everything we like about dwarfs and very little of what we don't, then Borek is nothing of what we like, and much of what we don't. From the very small slice we've seen so far.
[X] Lead the Wizards, Knightly Orders, and Asarnil
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[X] Lead the Wizards, Knightly Orders, and Asarnil
Yeah, I've been convinced.
Yeah, I've been convinced.
I mean this entire expedition is to put it bluntly and exercise in stupidity in the form of debts over common sense. Sure we might get something out of it (dwarf favor, new constacts, things tu study) but from the exercise of Karaz Ankor it is almost entirely pointless, it it throwing away lives and gold in the faint hope of offering aid to a Karak that fell into the mouth of hell almost two centuries ago. It stands to reason therefore that the person who is providing the impetus to this likely pointless waste of dwarf lives is not someone Mathilde would like.
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I would not go that very, his a dwarf on the edge.
we have no idea what he would have been like in better days.
no, I think out of every dwarf we meet so far, Ungrim Ironfist would be the dwarf that is everything that annoys mathy.
its just she didn't talk to he enough to get ticked off.
- Location
- Finland
And the thread voted to offer it to Belegar as our next job, and then voted to actually join it.
Never vote for something you are not willing to follow through.
That said, there are two weapons Karak Dum had of possible divine significance.
The (possibly) Axe of Grimnir, and Hammer of Fate (or Firebeard, the canon novels are kinda inconsistent on that) that was once used by Sigmar pre ascension, and that can't usually be lifted by non dwarves.
Finding those would be cool. We probably won't though.
No, that's not it. K8Ps expedition was pretty ridiculous as well. It became less ridiculous as things progressed, but at the start it was really more of a moonshot than this one. So by that logic, Mathilde should've disliked Belegar too.
No, I think it comes down to this: Ulthar respected Belegar. So did the other leaders. But Snorri and Gotrek don't respect Borek, not really. And there's no bigger red flag. (It can be unjustified, but we've not seen any reason to believe that. Gotrek and Snorri both seem competent and not too ideologically predisposed to disliking him).
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Who was that again?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
That'd put him at under 200 if that was the case.
At any rate, Boney has already stated 350-ish.
And the thread voted to offer it to Belegar as our next job, and then voted to actually join it.
Never vote for something you are not willing to follow through.
That said, there are two weapons Karak Dum had of possible divine significance.
The (possibly) Axe of Grimnir, and Hammer of Fate (or Firebeard, the canon novels are kinda inconsistent on that) that was once used by Sigmar pre ascension, and that can't usually be lifted by non dwarves.
Finding those would be cool. We probably won't though.
It would have happened with or without us and as I said it is profitable for us even for K8P to participate.
K8P was invaded by Skaven and parts of it were held by Greenskins, Karak Dun fell of the map and into warp-tainted hellscape no sane person would want to live in. K8P was on enemy ground, in Dun the ground is (one of them many) enemies.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The Slayer King, King of Karak Kadrin.
Mathilde doesn't like the institution of Slayers.
The Canon expedition you could call that, but this is very different both in how we help build it up, and ready itself and the importance of finding Karag Dum and at the very least, save it people, and recover impotent Dwarf relics.
The whole K8P deal is the proof of concept, especially among the new Holds, of the recovery of the Dwarf Peoples. Who are we to say no to saving a Dwarf Hold?
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A sane person capable of doing math? Even Belegar recognizes that with all the skill and all the luck that went into recapturing K8P it was probably not worth the cost in lives. We know different because we read the Thorgrim interlude, but even accounting for that... we are not recapturing Dun so it's off the table.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
We don't know whether or not there are still living dwarves in Karak Dun right now. In canon there wasn't, but relying on canon situation is dumb considering we know BoneyM makes alterations at the whim of a die.
And as long as there is a Karak to save, we have forces enough to take it.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
If Mathilde doesn't like Borek because he's throwing away lives on this expedition, then she's either a hypocrite, or blind. She's contributed more to this project than anyone else, throwing in hundreds more people, and a bunch more resources. If her starting assumption is that this expedition is pointless, why'd she go?
Wether or not there are living dwarfs in Dun the odds of saving more dwarfs than we lose is in my opinion impossibility remote, far too unlikely to make it a good gamble from the perspective of Karaz Ankor as a polity and that is before counting other resources. How many other weapons could have been built in place of those steam wagons? How much more aid could have been bought with that gold?
Well it's pointless for Karaz Ankor, not for Mathilde Webber under the coin of the protector representing K8P, it carries the potential of a political coup. 'Look at the great things we can do by making use of radical ideas and non-dwarf allies.'
Granted I don't think anything we can achieve here can truly be great or worthwhile, but the vast majority of dwarfs won't think that. Even the sort of 'success' that would be pointless in the long run for the Karaz Ankor can serve our interests in making them more reform minded. It isn't hypocrisy, it's cynicism and manipulation. Very on brand for a Grey Wizard.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Except if her starting point is "the expedition is going to fail to accomplish anything useful and get good people killed along the way" then her helping it out won't further her goals. At best it'll be value neutral, at worst, it'll give the impression that non-traditional aid is why the expedition failed. You cannot start from the perspective of 'this will utterly fail' and still believe you can drag political value out of it. There needs to be some measure of success or this doesn't even advance a cynical goal of making the Dwarfs more open to aid.
My point was not that the expedition will fail at its stated minimum goal of getting to Dun and reporting on what happened. It is that it will succeed thus netting us the needed political capital, but that this goal was not worthwhile from the start. We get the PR and Dwarf favor but Karaz Ankor is still left holding the bill in blood and treasure that it should never have paid.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Except if the success is "we went to Dum, lots of people died, and we gained nothing" the expedition has failed. You need a tangible gain beyond 'went somewhere, here's a report' for there to be a success to build political capital off, preferably one that demonstrates your contribution as necessary. For this expedition to actually work for the purposes you're stating, it needs to accomplish more than just surviving the trip to Dum and back, it needs to retrieve something of some level of importance, even if that's just the crown, or a store of runework or something similar. Survival and success aren't the same thing.
And again, if Mathilde's starting point is "this expedition isn't worth it" why did she spend all that money and resources on getting it more stuff? Why get Thorek to help? Why convince more people to come along, some of whom are definitely going to die? Why aid the expedition at all? Why not undermine it so that it loses the least amount possible, and wait for another, better opportunity to push her political agenda? It's not like the Dwarfs are never going to need to help again.