Magewrights accumulating fast, although they don't seem to be leveling...
Regardless, the Scholarum has now trained 69 mages capable of casting 3rd circle spells.
The Westeros mage organizations are relatively tiny, come to think of it. And I mean not even equivalent to one of our Scholarum branches, if you really think about it. While it's true by demographics, having a wider pool to recruit initiates from helps immensely, I get the feeling they also just don't have as many teachers, so they couldn't squeeze up to the manpower cap or go past it. Though with 300 mages in the Golden Shields, they could probably ramp up if given a couple of years and more latitude to recruit around Westeros instead of just being a bit opportunistic. There's also likely a selectivity issue.
It's by now known enough that Tywin demands a geass from every one of his mages, which probably includes asinine clauses like being struck dumb enough not to be able to cast spells if they don't fight incoming Doom Legions to the last.
Whereas if you want to learn magic in Essos, you go to the nearest road, stop at the closest messenger post, and submit an application, probably written for you by a scribe. And then when you arrive three or four months later after hitching a ride on a dozen wagons and carts, you have a cell, initiate's robe and syllabus waiting for you.
I also second (third?) the notion to drop Night Watch guys out of the system, @DragonParadox.
Jsut handwave them getting some good levels in the background, they've been at it for far too long IC without any progress to make sense.
I also second (third?) the notion to drop Night Watch guys out of the system, @DragonParadox.
Jsut handwave them getting some good levels in the background, they've been at it for far too long IC without any progress to make sense.
A cell is basically like a single-person sleeping chamber without much space for personal effects beyond the essentials. We have student housing on-campus, unless you've got family in the area or wealth to afford your own, or just take up a part time job using your magic. Or are just like, I dunno, a hermit who wandered in from the wilderness one day and only come by for lectures and exams and then disappear into a nearby forest to squat for a bit.
Magewrights accumulating fast, although they don't seem to be leveling...
Regardless, the Scholarum has now trained 69 mages capable of casting 3rd circle spells.
The Westeros mage organizations are relatively tiny, come to think of it. And I mean not even equivalent to one of our Scholarum branches, if you really think about it. While it's true by demographics, having a wider pool to recruit initiates from helps immensely, I get the feeling they also just don't have as many teachers, so they couldn't squeeze up to the manpower cap or go past it. Though with 300 mages in the Golden Shields, they could probably ramp up if given a couple of years and more latitude to recruit around Westeros instead of just being a bit opportunistic. There's also likely a selectivity issue.
It's by now known enough that Tywin demands a geass from every one of his mages, which probably includes asinine clauses like being struck dumb enough not to be able to cast spells if they don't fight incoming Doom Legions to the last.
Whereas if you want to learn magic in Essos, you go to the nearest road, stop at the closest messenger post, and submit an application, probably written for you by a scribe. And then when you arrive three or four months later after hitching a ride on a dozen wagons and carts, you have a cell, initiate's robe and syllabus waiting for you.
That is just beautiful. They're not all powerhouse full casters, but they're all signs of our success. The Magewrights, Adepts, and Hedge Mages are important for so many essential background services, I don't think we can have too many of them.
That said, I'm really happy to see the numbers of our Sorcerers, Wizards, and Archivists growing. Some of them are even on the cusp of gaining 4th level spells. 🤓
Magewrights accumulating fast, although they don't seem to be leveling...
Regardless, the Scholarum has now trained 69 mages capable of casting 3rd circle spells.
The Westeros mage organizations are relatively tiny, come to think of it. And I mean not even equivalent to one of our Scholarum branches, if you really think about it. While it's true by demographics, having a wider pool to recruit initiates from helps immensely, I get the feeling they also just don't have as many teachers, so they couldn't squeeze up to the manpower cap or go past it. Though with 300 mages in the Golden Shields, they could probably ramp up if given a couple of years and more latitude to recruit around Westeros instead of just being a bit opportunistic. There's also likely a selectivity issue.
It's by now known enough that Tywin demands a geass from every one of his mages, which probably includes asinine clauses like being struck dumb enough not to be able to cast spells if they don't fight incoming Doom Legions to the last.
Whereas if you want to learn magic in Essos, you go to the nearest road, stop at the closest messenger post, and submit an application, probably written for you by a scribe. And then when you arrive three or four months later after hitching a ride on a dozen wagons and carts, you have a cell, initiate's robe and syllabus waiting for you.
I think there are a few reasons here for why the Scholarium is functioning a lot better as a school then the Westerosi institutions.
1) Different Focus
What all Westerosi mage organizations have in common is that they follow a specific goal. Dornes three schools are the most open, having only general directions, but are still all focusing on specific areas of expertise or magic tradition. The Pyromancers were an extremely secretive order and their main objectives were always the retention and rediscovery of Valyian magic, not the spread of it. Meanwhile, the Golden Shields are primarily meant as an enforcement unit for Tywin, with magic beeing the means, not the end.
Thus, all those group screen their applicants with their own goal in mind. The Golden Shields want loyalty and discipline. The Pyromancers secrecy and an interest in a very specific tradition. While the Golden Shields likely had some recruitment quota, the Pyromancers would like throw everyone out who wanted to learn from them who didn't meet some arcane standard of being acceptable to the guild leadership.
The Scholarium though? The approach was always to train as many mages as possible and then finding a use for them. Heck. Our approach is to literally grab random peasants from the street, check if they have the aptitude to become mages and then training them on our dime. Of course we got a shit ton more recruits per thousand people of population. Our standards for admission are literally as low as they can possibly be, while everyone else is picky about whom they invest in. Our numbers would look a lot worse if we went with the Tywin approach and had only the Inquisition train any mages for us.
2) Cultural Differences
Essos has a different attitude towards trade skills, what is and isn't acceptable for a noble to learn, and about people inheriting the jobs of their parents. In Essos, while the son of a smith will be strongly encouraged to take over his fathers store, there is no social pressure to it beyond it generally being a decent idea. In Westeros though, the son of a smith will be a smith and there is that. The sons of a farmer will all be farmers, first as helpers on their fathers land, then on their own. This is to one part Essos being more urbanized, thus having more people in secondary and tertiary industries, and one part the institution of slavery eliminating a cultural desire to cling to a position at the bottom of the social ladder. A small-time Westerosi farmer is decently happy with his lot, since he got food and a roof, while the small-time Essosi farmer doesn't exist. You got slaves for that.
So you get a lot more people from the lower classes being both willing and capable of learning a different trade then that of their parents, especially when you get into the later sons of craftsmen, who can pick up the skills but will never be able to inherit the family shop. On the other end of the social pyramid, nobles don't scoff at their children learning skills as long as they are respectable. Being a scholar is respectable, thus so is being a mage. In Westeros though, you have the heir, the spare heir, the other boys who will become knights, and the ambulatory alliance tokens / heir incubators. The idea of a lords son learning to become a mage is... icky. It reeks of becoming a maester, which means renouncing the family name. Unrespectable.
Take note that we got equal amounts of complaining from Westerosi and Essosi nobles about them having to dine on the same table as some former peasants we raised up, but we never had an Essosi complain that it's beneath their childrens dignity to learn side by side with a fishermans daughter. They just expect their superior breeding to show and thus their kids to excel at their studies. Some Westerosi meanwhile took it as proof that sorcery is no lords business that mere peasants could learn it.
Thus, while we had far fewer people to recruit from for the longest while, our people were much more to actually likely to try and become mages.
3) Different Outlook
On top of having an easier entry, you also have a much better perspective for your future when you learn at the Scholarium. You don't have to join some lords personal guard, or some stuffy order that will micromanage the remainder of your life for you. Sure, you will always be a member of the Scholarium, but so is literally every other mage in the realm and they are barely bothered by that institutions. You have to adhere to some standards in behavior and quality of your work, but that's mostly it as far as hard requirements go.
If you like crafting, you can just learn to craft. Gets you a ton of money even, no matter on if you work on your own or for the state, though the latter option has awesome job security.
If you are scholarly, you can just spend your days researching. Sure, you are expected to hand everything over you find out, but it's hardly a burden when the compensation package is a ton of money and potentially some well paid and well funded research post.
Craving adventure? Join the military or the Inquisition.
Too restrictive? Nothing stopping you from hiring on with Red Scales Holding instead and scouting the elemental planes for them.
Always been fascinated by the forbidden arts? Prove yourself trustworthy and you can get a license. Get state of the art facilities and high quality materials for your work instead of having to scramble for enough baby fingers and some desecrated altar in the middle of bumfuck nowhere.
Necromancy? Others will do the digging for you.
Too scary and you just want to settle down and live a quiet life? Take a course in Alchemy and open an apothecary. You will even have the state pay you for supplying the local healers, meaning you will always have steady business.
None of this appealing? Do whatever! Nobody is going to force you to do a thing. Or to do whatever you picked forever. Go out and do something crazy for a few years before coming back and settling down.
In Westeros, joining a mage institution means your entire life is henceforth determined to follow a very specific path.
In the Scholarium, joining just opens so many other paths for you.
Is it really surprising that people from all over Westeros took a ship to Sorcerers Deep to learn there instead?
TL;DR
Treat people like gems to be polished, not as cows to be butchered. You will get significantly better outcomes.
That is just beautiful. They're not all powerhouse full casters, but they're all signs of our success. The Magewrights, Adepts, and Hedge Mages are important for so many essential background services, I don't think we can have too many of them.
That said, I'm really happy to see the numbers of our Sorcerers, Wizards, and Archivists growing. Some of them are even on the cusp of gaining 4th level spells. 🤓
Should be a valid target for Permanency though. That spell would look rather good on all access points for high-security areas that could be frequented by possessed people.
Yeah. If you enter the upper percentile of normal mages, you might eventually be able to teleport or go to other worlds. And you can make a ridiculous amount of money enchanting and probably never run short of clients doing so. Want quality of life luxuries? You can afford them. Swanky mansion in every major metropolis across the Spheres? Doable. Slowly accumulate enough gear to bump your effective CR 1-2? If you want! Need a life extension? I'm sure you can find a Druid or Mystic willing to trade a Cyclic Reincarnation for some work done, though you might have to hire some people to go looking. How about a noble title? I'm sure someone out there would consider you a good match. Someone attacking you or get on your bad side? Well, you've entered the realm of being able to turn people into small animals, or pull a Dresden and burn down the building they're hiding in.
Just not that talented? That's okay. You'll be able to enjoy a Poor Man's version of most of that if you choose the right city to live in. Even a 3rd circle caster is a hot commodity.
we never had an Essosi complain that it's beneath their childrens dignity to learn side by side with a fishermans daughter. They just expect their superior breeding to show and thus their kids to excel at their studies.
I'm not going to disagree with the rest of your post, but IIRC this is wrong. We did get complaints (from Volantenes, I think?) and we certainly got negative remarks about teaching just anyone.
On the other hand, those complaints mostly focused on the fact that we were wasting our time and money and inconveniencing those with the proper blood for magic who could have better classes if the useless lowborn were kicked out. They didn't outfight say "you're a dumbass for teaching the poor and I won't join" - but that might have been because saying so would have been stupid and undiplomatic, and refusing Scholarum entry isn't possible.
I'm not going to disagree with the rest of your post, but IIRC this is wrong. We did get complaints (from Volantenes, I think?) and we certainly got negative remarks about teaching just anyone.
On the other hand, those complaints mostly focused on the fact that we were wasting our time and money and inconveniencing those with the proper blood for magic who could have better classes if the useless lowborn were kicked out. They didn't outfight say "you're a dumbass for teaching the poor and I won't join" - but that might have been because saying so would have been stupid and undiplomatic, and refusing Scholarum entry isn't possible.
I'm pretty sure that was just the Mysterium complaining that they could no longer be an exclusive club and had to accept random peasants as part of being integrated into the Scholarium framework. I don't recall the Lyseni or Tyroshi magisters ever complaining about our recruitment standards.
The Volantines have made decent experiences with their method though.
Low numbers, but all Fullcasters, no Hedgemages, even PrCs for the Mysterium-guys.
All in all not worth it compared to getting hundreds of lesser mages, but it's something.
The Volantines have made decent experiences with their method though.
Low numbers, but all Fullcasters, no Hedgemages, even PrCs for the Mysterium-guys.
All in all not worth it compared to getting hundreds of lesser mages, but it's something.
Honestly, if I was playing a game as Volantis, I would choose the Volantene system too. They didn't have a sizeable group of powerful Companions to be the tip of the spear - and no amount of low-CR mages (even crafters!) will be enough to secure your city-state if you don't have some way of beating off a Balor or Demivagga or something. However a mid-sized group of mid-level PCs like the Mysterium produced? That's enough to start crafting reasonably powerful magical items and wards. That's enough to take down even powerful creatures through action economy alone (and it's a lot easier to get 10 lv10 spellcasters alone against an enemy boss than it is to lure the boss towards 300 magic-missle using magelings). That's a solid path towards obtaining the sort of strong Companion group that Viserys had.
The Scholarum is amazing for empire-building, societal change and good background stuff. But the Volantene strategy is indeed reasonable and good.
Honestly, if I was playing a game as Volantis, I would choose the Volantene system too. They didn't have a sizeable group of powerful Companions to be the tip of the spear - and no amount of low-CR mages (even crafters!) will be enough to secure your city-state if you don't have some way of beating off a Balor or Demivagga or something. However a mid-sized group of mid-level PCs like the Mysterium produced? That's enough to start crafting reasonably powerful magical items and wards. That's enough to take down even powerful creatures through action economy alone (and it's a lot easier to get 10 lv10 spellcasters alone against an enemy boss than it is to lure the boss towards 300 magic-missle using magelings). That's a solid path towards obtaining the sort of strong Companion group that Viserys had.
The Scholarum is amazing for empire-building, societal change and good background stuff. But the Volantene strategy is indeed reasonable and good.
Mind you that Volantis had a strong tradition of the Old Blood trying to mess around with magic, so they had some institutional knowledge advantage over the Scholarium at first, and more available teachers with at least theoretical knowledge to share.
The Mysterium is pretty conditional on you having those advantages, thus allowing you to build tall from the start. It's pretty hard to replicate this in other locations and it does get into problems with scaling after a certain point, since you are consuming a lot of teaching resources per mage produced.
Long term, if Volantis had stayed independent and especially if it had started to rebuild Valyria under Zherys, they would have had to reform to a more Scholarium style system or create a second institution to create peasant mages as the Mysterium approach reached diminishing returns.
Mind you that Volantis had a strong tradition of the Old Blood trying to mess around with magic, so they had some institutional knowledge advantage over the Scholarium at first, and more available teachers with at least theoretical knowledge to share.
The Mysterium is pretty conditional on you having those advantages, thus allowing you to build tall from the start. It's pretty hard to replicate this in other locations and it does get into problems with scaling after a certain point, since you are consuming a lot of teaching resources per mage produced.
Long term, if Volantis had stayed independent and especially if it had started to rebuild Valyria under Zherys, they would have had to reform to a more Scholarium style system or create a second institution to create peasant mages as the Mysterium approach reached diminishing returns.
I'm not sure that I agree?
You're assuming that they share our goals to spread magic everywhere. But if they don't, then do they really need a million magelings? Would it be in the interest of the ruling elite to keep magic access for themselves? Would the ruling elite feel the need to provide magical/alchemical healing to whole armies and cities?
They'd have a solid supply of level 4-5 magelings to handle warding their city walls, personal homes and such, and might have had enough to equip and accompany their more elite units or personal guards. Then they'd have the top-end mages to summon big creatures and handle Companion issues.
To someone not as interested in utopian visionary large-scale infrastructure and societal changes as Viserys, spreading minor magic and ritual lore all over the place (and to people less invested in your way of life) seems like a big risk for a marginal reward, once you already have your Mysterium running well enough to ensure basic safety and comfort for those in charge.
Let's see by the time we took over they had 4 serious PCs, plus Zherys as an extreme outlier. Add Taena and you have a decently powerful group of mages that could have been serious trouble to our earlier party.
And so it is that after strengthening the wards against eavesdroppers further you speak of what you had seen in Heaven's Shore, of Lost Grace and Fallen Angels, of a world slowly winking into oblivion as it has been for millennia uncounted. You speak of that which you had merely heard but not seen, of the wars in Paradise where horrors besiege the last bastions of light, and of shattered Elysium fading into the grey seas of Limbo.
Through all of this Zherys grows grimmer with each question and each answer, and at the end he turns to Dany. "You are right, Highness. They must be stopped before they draw too much attention, but it becomes all the more needed that we act in the fullness of time. If Valyria indeed turned its eyes from this, then they were fools, worse fools than I could ever have imagined." Bitter are the words upon his lips you suspect but still he speaks them.
Rereading old updates. I'd completely forgotten about this!
Glad to see that Zherys shares our absolutely insane ambition.
What a boss. I'm happy my proposals to kill him never won a vote.
It's worth noting that the Mysterium's tendency to build tall is not all elitism or practicality, though both of those played a part. It's also the fact that it was built by old school mages like Zherys who cut their teeth as sorcerers in a time when most of the remaining magic in the world was either extremely dangerous, actively malicious or worse. Zherys would have looked at a level one hedge mage with their paltry selection of spells, patchwork understanding of magic and low development ceiling and said 'death would be among the kindest fates you are likely to get'.
I'm not sure that I agree?
You're assuming that they share our goals to spread magic everywhere. But if they don't, then do they really need a million magelings? Would it be in the interest of the ruling elite to keep magic access for themselves? Would the ruling elite feel the need to provide magical/alchemical healing to whole armies and cities?
They'd have a solid supply of level 4-5 magelings to handle warding their city walls, personal homes and such, and might have had enough to equip and accompany their more elite units or personal guards. Then they'd have the top-end mages to summon big creatures and handle Companion issues.
To someone not as interested in utopian visionary large-scale infrastructure and societal changes as Viserys, spreading minor magic and ritual lore all over the place (and to people less invested in your way of life) seems like a big risk for a marginal reward, once you already have your Mysterium running well enough to ensure basic safety and comfort for those in charge.
I'm not sure why you think it's a utopian project to have a lot of minor mages. It's a lot more like a country industrializing then a country trying to become heaven on earth.
From our minor mages we reap a lot of military and economical benefits, which Volantis could not match with only a few mid-level casters.
I mean, you can certainly make the argument that the Old Blood is short-sighted and more interested in perpetuation of their own power then building an enduring powerbase for the nation, but long-term, this approach will fail against someone who is going for the mass-magic route.
I'm not sure why you think it's a utopian project to have a lot of minor mages. It's a lot more like a country industrializing then a country trying to become heaven on earth.
From our minor mages we reap a lot of military and economical benefits, which Volantis could not match with only a few mid-level casters.
Our massive gains would probably be considered utopian by the cynical, slaveowning Volantene elite. I remember having to persuade many essosi Magisters that our plans (and belief in the common people) weren't completely insane.
My original point was that their approach was superior in the short-term though?
Of course ours is better long-term, it's why I like it. But taking a long-term approach when you could get destroyed by the Devils, Red Priests or Ymeri Fey in the short term is just crazy.
And then once you've set up that in the short-term, path dependency sets in and it gets increasingly tempting not to go for the long-term objectives...
Our massive gains would probably be considered utopian by the cynical, slaveowning Volantene elite. I remember having to persuade many essosi Magisters that our plans (and belief in the common people) weren't completely insane.
My original point was that their approach was superior in the short-term though?
Of course ours is better long-term, it's why I like it. But taking a long-term approach when you could get destroyed by the Devils, Red Priests or Ymeri Fey in the short term is just crazy.
And then once you've set up that in the short-term, path dependency sets in and it gets increasingly tempting not to go for the long-term objectives...
And my point was that the Mysterium system is nice for the start, but you would need to transition to a Scholarium system in the long run due to the weaknesses of the Mysterium system.
So... we are in full agreement and just talking way past each other?
Also, the accelerating marginalization of the oligarchic systems on Planetos is exceedingly fun to watch.
It just seems to me that even with a reduction in status, the overall level of luxury, security and even the more elusive top structure of the hierarchy of needs opens up to a lot of the social elite who didn't have much room to muscle in and pursue them before. Like what if you're really smart, but not particularly martial? Well, you could become a scholar, but outside of your specific peer group you don't get much in the way of recognition, and god forbid you ever actually want to change anything unless you have a ruling position yourself, much less convince other people with power your ideas are good.
Sure, there'd be some traditionalists in the upper nobility who would argue they preferred the old days, but there's likely a correlation between having achieved a higher level of status compared to ones peers, and status being far more important to those who have not had to worry about the bare necessities, sometimes to the point of poor long-term decision making being more of an institutional thing than a present state of mind. Because maintaining the status quo even in the face of changing times is more important than getting ahead of a problem, even to the point where you're basically just gambling what you have now to bury that problem.
It is undoubtedly easier than with most things to point at magic and say it is the catalyst for all that is wrong in the world when "all that is wrong in the world" encompasses otherworldly invaders, monsters, curses and your neighbors now having the fantasy equivalent of a loaded gun to your head/impossible to catch spies or assassins on-call. Or peasants gaining personal power without the intervention of the nobility!
