What do you mean by "earn" I'm skeptical of the idea that we can extract more value out of this than the body swap process itself costs. Getting the undead to pay an additional fee seems like a waste of the good will we could be earning for with them.
money saved is money earned, if we have to spend a million less, that's a million we have earned.
As an aside I don't know if you've seen this spell yet, but that thing you were taking about with targeting ghosts can probably be solved with Soul Transfer.
That can get them in soul gems yes, but it's a high level spell, and unlike the research option, don't allow us to sacrifice their undead existence for profit, before turning them into Warforged.
Starting to write up the infopost on souls and the animus, but first I need to know, which spell exactly do you guys intend to use to make soul gems? I know trap the soul does it but I seem to recall another one cased on a cacodaemon's soul capture can do it, but I can't remember the name and because this is a new PC I don't have it in the history anymore.
spark-of-life to allow them to be dying, create-soul-gem to put them in soul gems.
 
Interlude DCCCXLIII: Life and Animus
Life and Animus

The first thing one must keep in mind about the animus is that it is not the soul anymore than it is the body, it does not hold your memories, your hopes or your dreams, your innermost self, instead it is the bridge by which that most ethereal self manipulates the psychical form. It is the life force disrupted, manipulated and even stolen by all manner of spells beginning with the First Circle. It is also the energy that makes up what are referred to as the 'Lesser Dead', not because they are not dangerous, a meeting with one of Wisdom Qyburn's works should put paid to that notion, but because they are not sapient, not ensouled.

Now all living things posses some manner of animus that can be sensed and utilized, even something as simple as a blade of grass. Does that then mean that said blade of grass could self-animate as a undead entity from some curse or great atrocity? No. Neither could say a clam or coral, not without intent from a necromancer to make them more than simply a darkened reflection of what they were in life. The clam and blade of grass both lack motive will.

Some tomes, which I will not mention here so as not to give recognition to ignorance, claim that the distinction is the possession of a spine. This is mostly the conceit of mages who have not walked far enough afield into realms where vertebrates like you and I do not constitute the most common form of higher life, and indeed mages who have never stuck their heads beneath the water. Animating the common squid as one of the unliving is no more difficult than doing so to a rat.

Where the relationship between the animus and the divine matters become more murky, at least from the perspective of our limited material and time-bound selves, but some things can be concluded. Firstly, that animus itself offered without ritual or care, without meaning, matters not at all. If one of you were to effortlessly collect a rat and hand it over to Yss to devour it would mean practically nothing, but if a starving beggar for which the rat might be the difference between life and death were to do the same not only would the serpent god take greater note, He would gain quantitatively more power. Gods are stories in the end and stories do not feed upon merely abstract energy, they feed upon meaning.

That is why the Given sacrifice is more precious than that which is Taken from the unwilling. But even here the distinction of what is being sacrificed matters. If one is say, sacrificing an existence one does not desire for a more pleasing rebirth, that is worth far less than taking one's chances with the River of Souls and the judgement of one's god. Still, the mortal soul recoils from death, from the uncertainty of placing so much power into the hands of another, thus even that leap into the unknown might be made useful to the gods.

Ritual to Sacrifice the Animus of Undead will defray 40% of the cost of making a soul gem with Create Soul Gem (40 IM); Progress Required 20; 8,000 IM costs

One might rightly ask from the above question what is a ghost or spirit with the power of possession? Are they animus or soul? While spontaneously created spirits wrought of animus have been documented they are rare and relatively fragile. Most of the incorporeal dead are exactly as they are commonly known, 'lost souls'. The overwhelm the victim of the possession and make use of they animus to control the victim. There is some indication that they also empower the bridge between body and soul in the process, the better to use their more esoteric powers, a fact which can lead to some long-term damage in the hosts.

Before anyone asks the implications of the above have been considered, allow a specter to possess a beast so that the resulting stronger animus can be then offered up as sacrifice to the divine. Such a thing would require a willing wraith and quite a bit of study, so anyone intending to walk around with a mouse in their pocket to trap and sacrifice malicious ghosts will be sadly disappointed.

Ritual to allow the sacrifice of ghosts under above parameters requires progress 30 and 14,000 IM

-Taken from the notes on the Restricted Mastery Class on soul magics
by Lya the Sage on the Fifth Day of the Second Month 294 after the Westerosi Reckoning​

OOC: Ended up getting inspired to make this a full interlude.
 
Last edited:
Ritual to Sacrifice the Animus of Undead will defray 40% of the cost of making a soul gem with Create Soul Gem (40 IM); Progress Required 20; 8,000 IM costs
Well look like it's pretty well useless, the only reason for making soul gems, was to profit from sacrifice, if making them into soul gems first just add cost to things, then it's not worth it at all.
 
Well look like it's pretty well useless, the only reason for making soul gems, was to profit from sacrifice, if making them into soul gems first just add cost to things, then it's not worth it at all.

It actually saves you money if there are enough undead, the costs are a flat price for the research itself.

To give an example if you have as little 1,000 Undead, you sage 40,000 IM and pay 8,000 for the research project that is still 32,000 IM
 
Last edited:
It actually saves you money if there are enough undead, the costs are a flat price for the research itself.
The effect is a reduction in the cost of making soul gems, and you have said we can make them go from undead to warforged with no research, if we don't put them in soul gems first, unless the full cost of the soul gem is deducted from the price of the warforged, that mean that by doing this research, the calculations would be that a CR1 Warforged cost 225IM +60IM for a soul gem, whereas just taking the undead to the Forge of creation, to make it into a warforged, only cost 225IM.

Basically from how the research is currently written, the only cost it lessen, is a cost that only exist in the first place, due to us adding the extra step that is soul gems.

If that's just me misreading things, then that's a different matter, but as I read it, doing this would cause a net loss, for every undead converted in this way.

Also why is it a flat amount? Shouldn't it still be calculated per HD, the sacrifice of the powerful always matter more, even if this is a lesser sacrifice, shouldn't a 10HD undead doing this, mean more than a 1HD undead doing this?
 
Last edited:
The effect is a reduction in the cost of making soul gems, and you have said we can make them go from undead to warforged with no research, if we don't put them in soul gems first, unless the full cost of the soul gem is deducted from the price of the warforged,

Oh right I forgot about that, the cost of the soul gem is indeed deducted from the cost of the warforged of course, that is logical since you are building part of the warforged in advance.
 
Last edited:
Oh fight I forgot about that, the cost of the soul gem is indeed deducted from the cost of the war forged of course, that is logical since you are building part of the warforged in advance.
So it's a 40IM reduction, that's decent not great but decent, though I have to ask, should this really be a flat reduction? No other sacrifice method has been the same regardless of the power of the sacrificed, I don't see why this is the exception to that, shouldn't it still be based on the strength of the sacrifice, because a 15HD undead taking a leap of faith, has more narrative meaning, than a 2HD undead taking a leap of faith.
 
So it's a 40IM reduction, that's decent not great but decent, though I have to ask, should this really be a flat reduction? No other sacrifice method has been the same regardless of the power of the sacrificed, I don't see why this is the exception to that, shouldn't it still be based on the strength of the sacrifice, because a 15HD undead taking a leap of faith, has more narrative meaning, than a 2HD undead taking a leap of faith.

It does indeed, but that just adds ore math to the whole thing, best to consider this an abstract, basically with the ones with less HD get you fewer ingredients and the ones wit more get you more, but on aggregate for a whole undead population it's 40%.
 
It does indeed, but that just adds ore math to the whole thing, best to consider this an abstract, basically with the ones with less HD get you fewer ingredients and the ones wit more get you more, but on aggregate for a whole undead population it's 40%.
Ok that makes sense, avoiding extra math is always a good idea.

If we wanted to offer this to our old(as in people of 60+ age) living citizens, what reduction could we expect?
 
Just out of curiosity, how many percent of a full sacrifice, do the old gods get out of this partial sacrifice.

Okay not entirely out of curiosity, strengthening the old gods is a goal in itself, and I would like to know how many sacrifices this count as them getting, always nice to know how much extra power, Bloodraven can use against winter.
 
Just out of curiosity, how many percent of a full sacrifice, do the old gods get out of this partial sacrifice.

Okay not entirely out of curiosity, strengthening the old gods is a goal in itself, and I would like to know how many sacrifices this count as them getting, always nice to know how much extra power, Bloodraven can use against winter.

I don't really like putting hard numbers to gods, it devalues them some to have a God strength gouge in numbers, makes them feel less mystical. Like Lya said in the interlude there is a limit to how much even the most erudite mortals can know gods.
 
Life and Animus

The first thing one must keep in mind about the animus is that it is not the soul anymore than it is the body. It does not hold your memories, your hopes, your dreams, or your innermost self. It is instead the bridge by which that most ethereal self manipulates the physical form. It is the life force disrupted, manipulated, and even stolen by all manner of spells beginning with the First Circle. It is also the energy that makes up what are referred to as the 'Lesser Dead', not because they are not dangerous, a meeting with one of Wisdom Qyburn's works should put paid to that notion, but because they are not sapient, not ensouled.

Now all living things posses some manner of animus that can be sensed and utilized, even something as simple as a blade of grass. Does that then mean that said blade of grass could self-animate as an undead entity from a curse or great atrocity? No. Neither could say a clam or coral, not without intent from a necromancer to make them more than simply a darkened reflection of what they were in life. The clam and blade of grass both lack motive will.

Some tomes, which I will not mention here so as not to give recognition to ignorance, claim that the distinction is the possession of a spine. This is mostly the conceit of mages who have not walked far enough afield into realms where vertebrates like you and I do not constitute the most common form of higher life, and indeed mages who have never stuck their heads beneath the water. Animating the common squid as one of the unliving is no more difficult than doing so to a rat.

Where the relationship between the animus and the divine matters become more murky, at least from the perspective of our limited material and time-bound selves, but some things can be concluded. Firstly, the animus itself, offered without ritual or care, without meaning, matters not at all. If one of you were to effortlessly collect a rat and hand it over to Yss to devour it would mean practically nothing, but if a starving beggar for which the rat might be the difference between life and death were to do the same, not only would the serpent god take greater note, He would gain quantitatively more power. Gods are stories in the end and stories do not feed upon merely abstract energy, they feed upon meaning.

That is why the Given sacrifice is more precious than that which is Taken from the unwilling. But even here the distinction of what is being sacrificed matters. If one is say, sacrificing an existence one does not desire for a more pleasing rebirth, that is worth far less than taking one's chances with the River of Souls and the judgement of one's god. Still, the mortal soul recoils from death, from the uncertainty of placing so much power into the hands of another, thus even that leap into the unknown might be made useful to the gods.

Ritual to Sacrifice the Animus of Undead will defray 40% of the cost of making a soul gem with Create Soul Gem (40 IM); Progress Required 20; 8,000 IM costs

One might rightly ask from the above question what is a ghost or spirit with the power of possession? Are they animus or soul? While spontaneously created spirits wrought of animus have been documented, they are rare and relatively fragile. Most of the incorporeal dead are exactly as they are commonly known, 'lost souls'. They overwhelm the victim of the possession and make use of their animus to control the victim. There is some indication that they also empower the bridge between body and soul in the process, the better to use their more esoteric powers, a fact which can lead to some long-term damage in the hosts.

Before anyone asks if the implications of the above would allow a specter to possess a beast so that the resulting stronger animus can be then offered up as sacrifice to the divine, the answer is yes. However, such a thing would require a willing wraith and quite a bit of study, so anyone intending to walk around with a mouse in their pocket to trap and sacrifice malicious ghosts will be sadly disappointed.

Ritual to allow the sacrifice of ghosts under above parameters requires Progress 30 and 14,000 IM

-Taken from the notes on the Restricted Mastery Class on soul magics
by Lya the Sage on the Fifth Day of the Second Month 294 after the Westerosi Reckoning​

OOC: Ended up getting inspired to make this a full interlude.
Here's an edited version of the write-up, DP.
 
I don't really like putting hard numbers to gods, it devalues them some to have a God strength gouge in numbers, makes them feel less mystical. Like Lya said in the interlude there is a limit to how much even the most erudite mortals can know gods.
Yeah but we can have rough numbers, hard numbers we can't have, but we can know that if we are getting 20% of what we would have gotten for a full sacrifice, the old gods are probably also getting 20% of what they would have gotten for a full sacrifice, I'm not asking how much power a 1000HD sacrifice generate, I'm asking how many HD we are sacrificing to them, that's soft numbers not hard numbers.

We don't know exactly how much, the old gods get out of us growing a tier 3 Heart Tree either, but we know that it's 48HD worth of sacrifice, by that same token, we wouldn't know how much they are getting out of this, but we would know how many normal sacrifices it equates to.

We also know that 20CL of magic items sacrificed, is equal to 48HD of creatures sacrificed to them, that's the kind of numbers gods do give out, they don't tell you what they get out of it, but they do tell you how different kinds of sacrifices compare to each other.
 
Last edited:
To firm up the numbers some, @DragonParadox;

Creating a sentient basic Warforged with an animus and soul of its own costs 225 IM.

Create Soul Gem doesn't actually cost anything in material components, so does using it in this manner reduce Warforged cost from 225 IM to 185 IM, or is it a 40% reduction to 135 IM?

And if we wanted to skip this step and directly transfer the animus of the Undead into a Warfoged created without its own animus/soul, what would that cost?
 
Yeah but we can have rough numbers, hard numbers we can't have, but we can know that if we are getting 20% of what we would have gotten for a full sacrifice, the old gods are probably also getting 20% of what they would have gotten for a full sacrifice, I'm not asking how much power a 1000HD sacrifice generate, I'm asking how many HD we are sacrificing to them, that's soft numbers not hard numbers.

We don't know exactly how much, the old gods get out of us growing a tier 3 Heart Tree either, but we know that it's 48HD worth of sacrifice, by that same token, we wouldn't know how much they are getting out of this, but we would know how many normal sacrifices it equates to.

We also know that 20CL of magic items sacrificed, is equal to 48HD of creatures sacrificed to them, that's the kind of numbers gods do give out, they don't tell you what they get out of it, but they do tell you how different kinds of sacrifices compare to each other.

The thing is even there you don't know how much They are getting for each sacrifice, particular life-force given before specific trees may be worth more or less they just five consistent rewards because on average it is worth it to them and they have found mortals react well to consistent rewards (and explaining everything would make their brains explode). Basically you guys know what rate the OG (and Yss) are paying for sacrifice at. What they get and how precisely they use it is beyond the veil of mortal ken.
 
To firm up the numbers some, @DragonParadox;

Creating a sentient basic Warforged with an animus and soul of its own costs 225 IM.

Create Soul Gem doesn't actually cost anything in material components, so does using it in this manner reduce Warforged cost from 225 IM to 185 IM, or is it a 40% reduction to 135 IM?

And if we wanted to skip this step and directly transfer the animus of the Undead into a Warfoged created without its own animus/soul, what would that cost?
  1. Making a Warforged with a new soul: 225 IM
  2. Making a Warforged an old soul: Still 225 only 100 IM of that comes in soul stone form
  3. Creating a warforged with a soul stone and undead sacrifice 225-40 = 185
 
Yeah but we can have rough numbers, hard numbers we can't have, but we can know that if we are getting 20% of what we would have gotten for a full sacrifice, the old gods are probably also getting 20% of what they would have gotten for a full sacrifice, I'm not asking how much power a 1000HD sacrifice generate, I'm asking how many HD we are sacrificing to them, that's soft numbers not hard numbers.

We don't know exactly how much, the old gods get out of us growing a tier 3 Heart Tree either, but we know that it's 48HD worth of sacrifice, by that same token, we wouldn't know how much they are getting out of this, but we would know how many normal sacrifices it equates to.

We also know that 20CL of magic items sacrificed, is equal to 48HD of creatures sacrificed to them, that's the kind of numbers gods do give out, they don't tell you what they get out of it, but they do tell you how different kinds of sacrifices compare to each other.
Like I told you last night, and DP just confirmed, we shouldn't expect any net gain from using a method of willing Undead sacrifice. Mechanically, at best we're going to see a reduction in the overall cost of creating a Warforged intended to house the Animus of a willing Undead.
 
The thing is even there you don't know how much They are getting for each sacrifice, particular life-force given before specific trees may be worth more or less they just five consistent rewards because on average it is worth it to them and they have found mortals react well to consistent rewards (and explaining everything would make their brains explode). Basically you guys know what rate the OG (and Yss) are paying for sacrifice at. What they get and how precisely they use it is beyond the veil of mortal ken.
Yeah but knowing the output let us make rough guesses, if we are getting 20% of what we would get with a full sacrifice, they're probably not getting 2% of what they would get with a full sacrifice, the precise ways of gods are inscrutable, but you can make rough calculations.

So basically my question is, how much would we be getting per sacrifice, if we were fully instead of partly sacrificing them?
 
  1. Making a Warforged with a new soul: 225 IM
  2. Making a Warforged an old soul: Still 225 only 100 IM of that comes in soul stone form
  3. Creating a warforged with a soul stone and undead sacrifice 225-40 = 185
Is it possible to skip the soul stone step and transfer the Animus directly from the Undead to the empty Warforged? If so, does that affect the cost of the Warforged?
 
Is it possible to skip the soul stone step and transfer the Animus directly from the Undead to the empty Warforged? If so, does that affect the cost of the Warforged?
Did DP not confirm the last day that yes, we can just raise an Undead as a Warforged without that step?
Or do you mean something particular by "animus"?
 
Is it possible to skip the soul stone step and transfer the Animus directly from the Undead to the empty Warforged? If so, does that affect the cost of the Warforged?

That is option number two above, as much as normal warforged.

Yeah but knowing the output let us make rough guesses, if we are getting 20% of what we would get with a full sacrifice, they're probably not getting 2% of what they would get with a full sacrifice, the precise ways of gods are inscrutable, but you can make rough calculations.

So basically my question is, how much would we be getting per sacrifice, if we were fully instead of partly sacrificing them?

If you were say sacrificing them to make trees and then raising them the Old Gods would consider them at about 1/10 the sacrificial value of the full undead, just please don't take those numbers and try to come up with how much reagents you 'should' be getting because that would force me to to the math in reverse and that is just a lot of work for very little payoff when the 40 IM a pop on average makes things easier.
 
Back
Top