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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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[X] Duesal

This will likely allow him to concentrate useful knowledge and Imperial positions among his own allies, and to crush his enemies and rivals all the harder.
We don't know much about the internal functioning of the Citadel and we have no allies of our own there, so I don't particularly mind agreeing. It's a missed opportunity, but we weren't going to investigate it all in detail ourselves anyway...
 
[X] Accept, Marwyn will be made the last Grand Maester of the Citadel before its abolishment and will be able to advocate for his fellow maesters

Duesal's addendum is already very clear in the talk we just had, so I'm for the less wordy option.
 
Artemis1992 said:
[X] Accept, Marwyn will be made the last Grand Maester of the Citadel before its abolishment and will be able to advocate for his fellow maesters

Duesal's addendum is already very clear in the talk we just had, so I'm for the less wordy option.
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No harm in getting that in a vote, so we can point to it in the future if need be. It wouldn't be the first time we've had to dig up an old vote.
 
[X] Accept, Marwyn will be made the last Grand Maester of the Citadel before its abolishment and will be able to advocate for his fellow maesters
-[X] He will be able to advocate, though this does not give him the final say. The Citadel will still be thoroughly investigated.
 
Goldfish said:
@DragonParadox, any chance we can get some info on Marwyn and his companions? I know it's a bit soon, but I'm curious.
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Viserys can't tell much about them IC right now but he is resonably certain Ashin is some kind of shugenja or shugenja-adjacent class though he does not seem to be using kami, Sari practically screams 'sneak' and Vargo appears to be UMD focused. Marwyn himself is playing his cards too close to his chest to read right now.
 
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The question is do we want to completely eradicate the Citadel or change it to one of our places of learning? After all, Citadel IS a millenia year old institute, which helped Westeros immensely. It is one of the brightest jewels in our future crown of Seven Kingdoms, even if we plan to reforge it and the kingdoms into our Empire. Granted, the "jewel" is sitting somewhat askew, and requires us to polish it while cleaning out the crap collected behind it over these years, but I would not want to raise it to the ground, even metaforically. It's extremely wasteful.
 
Tutan0ss said:
The question is do we want to completely eradicate the Citadel or change it to one of our places of learning? After all, Citadel IS a millenia year old institute, which helped Westeros immensely. It is one of the brightest jewels in our future crown of Seven Kingdoms, even if we plan to reforge it and the kingdoms into our Empire. Granted, the "jewel" is sitting somewhat askew, and requires us to polish it while cleaning out the crap collected behind it over these years, but I would not want to raise it to the ground, even metaforically. It's extremely wasteful.
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I would treat the Citadel in the same manner I would with the Iron Throne.

Take every single useful pieces out of it and repurpose it to the point where it's unidentifiable.
 
Tutan0ss said:
The question is do we want to completely eradicate the Citadel or change it to one of our places of learning? After all, Citadel IS a millenia year old institute, which helped Westeros immensely. It is one of the brightest jewels in our future crown of Seven Kingdoms, even if we plan to reforge it and the kingdoms into our Empire. Granted, the "jewel" is sitting somewhat askew, and requires us to polish it while cleaning out the crap collected behind it over these years, but I would not want to raise it to the ground, even metaforically. It's extremely wasteful.
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The Citadel as an institution is going to be torn down. This does not mean every Maester dies, they'll just be evaluated and absorbed into other institutions. Similarly we're going to confiscate the lore.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Marwyn is obviously a wizard of some sort!
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Hey I mean... it's likely, but DP could have always gone in a different direction. Pathfinder opens up some new options, and there's always a way to get a flavor of "academic magic user" out of various options.

IB4 it turns out he honed the lost arts forgotten for thousands of years... muscle wizardry.
 
The problem is that by doing this instead of keeping it standing in some shape lots and lots of furious and despondent maesters, apprentices and friends of theirs will be left adrift. Let's not forget that they have the ears of almost EVERY Westeros lord and general man of importance. I believe we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot by tearing Citadel down completely, these influential and educated people will never forget it, and might make us never forget about it in turn, that institute is their entire life.
Imagine if the remnants of King's Landing Alchemists knew about our actions, but not their reasons. I would bet more than Sorcerors Deep would be under threat of burning to the ground, and even if it did not, we would never be able to trust them fully.
 
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Tutan0ss said:
The problem is that by doing this instead of keeping it standing in some shape lots and lots of furious and despondent maesters, apprentices and friends of theirs will be left adrift. Let's not forget that they have the ears of almost EVERY Westeros lord and general man of importance. I believe we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot by tearing Citadel down completely, these influential and educated people will never forget it, and might make us never forget about it in turn, that institute is their entire life.
Imagine if the remnants of King's Landing Alchemists knew about our actions, but not their reasons. I would bet more than Sorcerors Deep would be under threat of burning to the ground, and even if it did not, we would never be able to trust them fully.
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At the end of the day, yes, the Maesters are influential... but they're an extreme minority. Less than a percentile of all of Westeros. The disconnect and degree of concern from the common people will be nil because they do not share the fruits of their knowledge with them at all, not even going out to provide healthcare in the least.

And as for the Lords? When we say we will provide learned men and experts for any subject they can imagine by simply expanding the pool of education farther, which will also have economic benefits for each of their fiefdoms?

To add to the fact that I do not think a great enough plurality of Lords will make the Citadel their hill to die on, just ensure that their personal Maester still has a place with them if they choose to take it (and that will be an option for most of them)?

There's no reason for someone to fight a war over the Citadel, but every reason for the Citadel to sabotage us at every turn if they still stand as a defined organization at the end of the year.
 
Tutan0ss said:
The problem is that by doing this instead of keeping it standing in some shape lots and lots of furious and despondent maesters, apprentices and friends of theirs will be left adrift. Let's not forget that they have the ears of almost EVERY Westeros lord and general man of importance. I believe we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot by tearing Citadel down completely, these influential and educated people will never forget it, and might make us never forget about it in turn, that institute is their entire life.
Imagine if the remnants of King's Landing Alchemists knew about our actions, but not their reasons. I would bet more than Sorcerors Deep would be under threat of burning to the ground, and even if it did not, we would never be able to trust them fully.
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Most maesters will be given the opportunity to remain employed, this time making actual money rather than basically working for room and board. Just because the Citadel as an institution will be going away doesn't mean the former maesters will be tossed out on their asses.

There will be a great demand for educated people in the years to come, and whatever else they are, the maesters are highly educated.

What we don't need, however, is an unofficial intelligence gathering apparatus outside of our control or a communication network so easily compromised as the network of ravens trained and maintained by the Citadel.
 
[X] Accept, Marwyn will be made the last Grand Maester of the Citadel before its abolishment and will be able to advocate for his fellow maesters
-[X] He will be able to advocate, though this does not give him the final say. The Citadel will still be thoroughly investigated.
 
Goldfish said:
Most maesters will be given the opportunity to remain employed, this time making actual money rather than basically working for room and board. Just because the Citadel as an institution will be going away doesn't mean the former maesters will be tossed out on their asses.
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I mean that's the thing, Maesters aren't really working for "room and board", they are working in Lords' keeps because it gives them extreme amounts of power and influence compared to what was originally available to them as commoners, second/third/etc. sons and bastards.

The Maesters who stay in the Citadel are the ones who are playing the major political games (internal politics or otherwise), or are the ones who are genuinely interested in studying and expanding knowledge.

Take away the influence that comes with the position of being a lord's Maester, and they really don't serve any purpose being there. Even the Lords who decide to keep their Maester on retainer isn't going to be able to replace them once they're gone or they decide to move on (or fire them).

No more Citadel, no more grey rats.
 
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