The question is subjective anyhow. If you think of the Lord of Heaven as the angel he still is then of course hiding this is the wrong choice, it is too much of a liability for his followers. But if you think of him as the Devil he intends to become then it's the best choice for himself. Selfishness versus selflessness.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
That was the lie the people back at the auction sold to the Blessed guard as to why the prisoner is missing. That does not obligate the officer to actually give you something though he might depending on his ultimate conclusion on Hassan.
Well yes, but this is diabolic politics. Never answer bluntly when you can instead say something that sounds nice and makes you look better, but only implicitly touches on the actual question being asked.
The implication of an answer like Goldfish's original one is that we do think there is wisdom in hiding it, but we never say that, and more or less stick to a point people of both positions would agree with.
That's fair enough. I edited in some related points to this in my last post since I hadn't refreshed the page and didn't want to double up, but I'd like to point out a few additional things.
Firstly is that we don't know if his propensity to Fall or compromise is related to his historical issue. It very well could be, but we haven't read the lore yet and the situation in Heaven is dire enough that it could reasonably be an entirely separate push towards the edge.
Secondly, the position you're espousing about what Heaven needs and how it'll respond isn't definitely true, or the only possible answer. I happen to agree, but Ezh lived through the destruction of an entire way of life based on that idea, and only has to look up to see a reminder of that. It's not unreasonable for him to take a different approach, even if it turns out to be wrong.
I don't think we have enough information to tell if he's actively desecrating Heaven's memory, or if he's just try as best he can to preserve it, yet. It's hard to know if his biography will include things of absolute relevance, but assuming that he's acting in bad faith and has been all along without even having read the document we're condemning him based on isn't reasonable.
His actions thus far aren't looking good, but the act of hiding this itself is only unethical if it's materially relevant. It's not like he hasn't had plenty of entirely new experiences to drive him towards being a dick in the ages since the breaking.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I guess I continually should clarify, I don't personally believe this, but it definitely is something that the people who live under the malaise of Heaven's Shore feel to be true, to some extent.
I believe, however, the only way for him to not be a lying liar who drank the Devil Kool-aid, but not the perfect paragon of virtue, would be to take the last step, fall, and be fully willing to step back while still doing all within his power to make sure the people of Heaven's Shore are able to succeed, as if you believe only in death can you count your contributions a failure against the literal conceptual representation of The End, then you don't need to consolidate power around so brittle a facade. It just creates faultline cracks to exploit by a subversive enemy.
- Location
- Argentina
So you intend on playing as a cannier part than other players. That's fine.
You don't get 9th level spell slots by collecting box tops, there's only so much inability that he's going to buy. Not having interrogation magic as a summoning specialist is one thing, but not being able to play politics is another. A caster of that ability who can't play the game wouldn't be independently traveling anywhere, they'd have been enslaved or something before they broke level ten.
He's probably flipped by this point or Hell wouldn't let him keep that throne. My point was specifically about the ethics of hiding the book. I think it's just as, if not more, likely that he flipped for things he experienced with the fall of Heaven rather than during his youth. I could be wrong, but we don't actually know what it says yet, and a unilateral condemnation doesn't sit well with me. I also happen to think that allowing for the possibility of a leader keeping big secrets increases the odds that Hassan will be given an opening to work with the garrison and get some useful leverage up here.
- Location
- Argentina
We could also be saying "The usefulness of this pawn has reached an end", and that would be more of a political view than being good at keeping secrets.
That'd work too. The trick is that we don't want him to start looking for where the slight of hand is. A blunt answer could be part of a normal maneuver, or it would be an attempt to look worse at this stuff than we are. We want to look good in a simple, familiar, way so that he finds what he's looking for without stopping to take a second look.
Inserted tally
Part MMMDLII: Of Profit and Peril
Of Profit and Peril
Twenty Fifth Day of the First Month 294 AC
Though you are tempted to offer critique of the Lord of Heaven's failure that is not quite what was asked for and it might hint that your current persona is not quite as much of a blunt instrument as you had taken pains to show so far. Even a blunt instrument, however, can see the poison seeping into the structures of Heaven's Shore, the very more uneasy malaise you glimpsed in the eyes of passersby when you faced the archon patrol. "No, it is already too great a weakness, if he cared for those he rules Ezhekidich should have stepped down and allow an archon without his dark secret to ascend to the rule of Heaven's Shore."
"You think it is important to care for those you rule?" the devil asks, faintly surprised or perhaps merely feigning it.
"I think it is important to value whatever one is given dominion over be it a merchant's enterprise, a craftsman's workshop or any other thing of worth." You pause frowning, as though you had not considered the matter in quite these terms before. "For a ruler I would count most important not the stones of the city, but the people who walk over them. If these people should find such fault with Ezhekidich's present self that all should descend into chaos should the truth be unveiled then yes he is unfit for the purpose, no less than any gear which has been worn down and it in need of replacing.
"Or perhaps it is all the other gears the way this city is going?" Iradious offers, his smile sharp enough to score dragon-scales.
"As to that I could not possibly know enough to judge, I know little of this fair city" you shrug, throwing in the compliment as though by reflex just as one raised in the Peerless Empire would. It is often small things as much as great that sell a lie. "But it always seems to me wiser to take out a single gear, not many of them."
Something shifts in the devils' posture, the tilt of his chin, the way his hands rest at his side, the creases of his crimson robe ripple. Though you could not have said before that he was tense you can now see the signs of subtle relaxation. He had apparently decided where exactly Hassan fit into the context of his plans and worldview. "You may return to settle your agreement with the oracle, the Blessed Guard have wisely withdrawn from the confrontation without any undue secrets spilled on either side."
He pauses a moment before extracting a strip of dark crimson parchment from his robes. It gleams in the light like fresh blood, though you can recognize the glamor cast upon it to keep the contents from unauthorized eyes. Extending it to you Iradious adds: "It has been a pleasant experience speaking to you, Speaker of Stone, and your actions have been to the benefit of peace and order in Heaven's Shore. If you should ever have need of an official document to access restricted parts of the city or bypass curfew while going about your business I am willing to vouch for you."
"And in exchange?" You do not touch the note yet.
"Further information on lawbreaking you may discover in your passage through Heaven's Shore, perhaps a few chats about the fate of the world when you are passing through our fair city," the devil deliberately echoes your earlier words. "I fear conversation that is both intelligent and novel is in rather short supply at this post."
What do you do?
[] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns to keeping it)
[] Do not take the Infernal Pass, but part amiably with vaguer promises of future meetings
***
The Fortress recedes quickly behind you as you return upon the winding paths of the Court of History, no longer concerned that you would meet a golden-armored patrol. Your brief detour to meet the keepers of Asmodeus' law aside you are much more interested in securing the writings of death and rebirth from Heronious. The question is what might best entice him? Coin you have aplenty, but if coin was enough to buy that lore, absent his feigned death, others would already possess it.
Perhaps an exchange of knowledge for knowlege, thanks to Anu and in lesser parts the Volantene Red Priests you have no small cache of artificing lore, but the question remains if you can offer such things without revealing too much about yourself.
"How much is too much?" Varys' thought, like yet unlike your own, slithers through your head. "This is not a being sworn directly to one of the archdukes that we know. Might he not be persuaded to keep our secrets along with many others with the promise of sufficient lore?"
"The secrets of Viserys Targaryen?" you ask dubiously.
"Corlys Waters then," she allows. After a moment's pause she adds. "You know, it is quite unfair that you can have so many names and masks and I have none. Perhaps I shall spend some time presenting to be a messenger raven when we get home."
"You would actually have to fly messages," you point out.
Her only answer is a half-hearted mental huff.
Under what guise do you make your offer for the lore and what do you offer to pay?
Guise:
[] Keep to Hassan
[] Secret Envoy of the Peerless Empire
[] Corlys Waters
[] Viserys Targaryen
[] Write in
Offer:
[] Treasure
-[] Write in how much
[] Lore
-[] Write in what sort
[] Write in
OOC: I was tempted to make the cut after the first vote, but that did not seem very interesting so here's some bonus Visrerys-Varys interaction and a much meatier vote to focus on.
Last edited:
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns keeping it)
[X] Viserys Targaryen
-[X] Rather than merely some of our lore which we would both be hard-pressed to safeguard from two worlds apart, why not join together and get it all? In a handful of years you have amassed a trove of rare and forbidden lore, and you are unlikely to stop there.
-[X] What's more, you have applied much of it in tangible ways which can change the face of the world, and you hope to go beyond it, changing the Spheres for the better. If what you suspect of Heronious' motivations is close, and given how much attention he has gathered in Heaven's Shore, he is in no short supply of enemies already, some of which you both already share. But by joining forces comes allies he did not have access to before.
I feel like we can't really make any great promises with any surety of being believed as Corlys, who is fine for arranging meetings or medium-scale exchanges or transactions, or informing another person of some of our own genuine motivations.
[X] Viserys Targaryen
-[X] Rather than merely some of our lore which we would both be hard-pressed to safeguard from two worlds apart, why not join together and get it all? In a handful of years you have amassed a trove of rare and forbidden lore, and you are unlikely to stop there.
-[X] What's more, you have applied much of it in tangible ways which can change the face of the world, and you hope to go beyond it, changing the Spheres for the better. If what you suspect of Heronious' motivations is close, and given how much attention he has gathered in Heaven's Shore, he is in no short supply of enemies already, some of which you both already share. But by joining forces comes allies he did not have access to before.
I feel like we can't really make any great promises with any surety of being believed as Corlys, who is fine for arranging meetings or medium-scale exchanges or transactions, or informing another person of some of our own genuine motivations.
Last edited:
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Great job, guys! We have managed to make a favourable impression upon a Cleric of Asmodeus.
Through sheer Charisma.
And boy, do I love it~.
Through sheer Charisma.
And boy, do I love it~.
- Location
- Chicago
[X] Crake
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
Maybe we should get Varys a tiny little messenger bag and cap to wear as part of her disguise?
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Crake
- Location
- Argentina
@DragonParadox , how much of an asshole can we be if we also go to the Lord of Heaven's Shore and sublty extort him in exchange of keeping the secret of his fall?
Okay, that's not a real question. Rather, what could we get if we go and do that? Any insight from Viserys?
Okay, that's not a real question. Rather, what could we get if we go and do that? Any insight from Viserys?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Not much. The guy clearly thinks the secret is of the "two can keep it if one is dead" variety.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, much like a whole Empire's worth of resources, wealth along the likes of some prominent Shaitan nobility, and a Mythic Chromatic Elder Wyrm Sorcerer that could make a General of Hell to give a run for his money.
All in all, if he were to fully capitulate to our cause? He'd get so much.
And we would get another exotic minion and a treasure trove worth of knowledge.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
I don't think we should reveal our true identity to Heronious, especially not if we intend to maintain Iradious as a contact in Hellven. I'm also leery of sharing all of our lore with him. That's a lot of hard won knowledge and information. The Hassan identity is a good one and I don't see any reason to compromise it now.
The Flesh to Steel ritual alone should be of great value to Heronious. It's a very high level ritual which transfers the target's soul into a Construct. That should play right into Heronious' interests.
[X] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns keeping it)
[X] Keep to Hassan
-[X] Lore: Offer to share with Heronious the Flesh to Steel ritual in exchange for a copy of the information contained within the tome that was not auctioned.
-[X] We are willing to negotiate further, if he does not consider this an adequate exchange.
--[X] If necessary, we will provide up to the same amount we were willing to spend to secure the tome during the auction and as an absolute last resort we can make available some of Lya's notes pertaining to the creation of artificial Outsiders, though such an exchange will have to include more from Heronious than the contents of the tome.
-[X] While we are meeting, discuss the possibility of acquiring copies of the other lore sold during the auction, assuming Heronious is willing.
The Flesh to Steel ritual alone should be of great value to Heronious. It's a very high level ritual which transfers the target's soul into a Construct. That should play right into Heronious' interests.
[X] Take the Infernal Pass (Greater ease in navigating Heaven's Shore; Enduring contact with Iradious; must dedicate a minor action at least every few turns keeping it)
[X] Keep to Hassan
-[X] Lore: Offer to share with Heronious the Flesh to Steel ritual in exchange for a copy of the information contained within the tome that was not auctioned.
-[X] We are willing to negotiate further, if he does not consider this an adequate exchange.
--[X] If necessary, we will provide up to the same amount we were willing to spend to secure the tome during the auction and as an absolute last resort we can make available some of Lya's notes pertaining to the creation of artificial Outsiders, though such an exchange will have to include more from Heronious than the contents of the tome.
-[X] While we are meeting, discuss the possibility of acquiring copies of the other lore sold during the auction, assuming Heronious is willing.
Flesh to Steel
School: Transmutation Level 9
Casting Time: 90 minutes
Material Components: The brain of a humanoid that has been dead less than 8 hours [to be taken from the subject of the transference], 2500 Gold worth of rare arcane reagents
Required Caster: Lawful Arcane or Divine spell caster capable of casting fifth level spells
Secondary Casters: None
Skill Checks: Knowledge (Arcana) DC 36, 2 successes; Knowledge (The Planes) DC 36, 3 successes; Knowledge (Religion) DC 36, 2 successes; Spellcraft DC 36, 2 successes
Backlash: The caster loses access to all prepared spells or spell-slots as though they had been cast
Effect: Awakens target construct of 15 HD or less with the mind and arcane abilities of the caster (limited to 3rd level spells)
Failure: The caster loses 5000 XP
School: Transmutation Level 9
Casting Time: 90 minutes
Material Components: The brain of a humanoid that has been dead less than 8 hours [to be taken from the subject of the transference], 2500 Gold worth of rare arcane reagents
Required Caster: Lawful Arcane or Divine spell caster capable of casting fifth level spells
Secondary Casters: None
Skill Checks: Knowledge (Arcana) DC 36, 2 successes; Knowledge (The Planes) DC 36, 3 successes; Knowledge (Religion) DC 36, 2 successes; Spellcraft DC 36, 2 successes
Backlash: The caster loses access to all prepared spells or spell-slots as though they had been cast
Effect: Awakens target construct of 15 HD or less with the mind and arcane abilities of the caster (limited to 3rd level spells)
Failure: The caster loses 5000 XP
Last edited:
- Location
- Argentina
That only works if he can find that person. That's the wornderful thing about mind blank.
Last edited:
- Location
- Argentina
I like this idea, but I think that this won't be enough, though.
Better to cultivate him as a contact than risking revealing our identity to him right now. We can always join forces later.
[X] Goldfish