...the world is right properly fucked that an incestuous offspring of a Chromatic Red Dragon ancestor with dream of World Domination is the best option of victory.
...the world is right properly fucked that an incestuous offspring of a Chromatic Red Dragon ancestor with dream of World Domination is the best option of victory.
Press X to Doubt on there being a better option than Viserys among the list of choices in the Bad Guys camp. I mean if your intentions is to fall into the criteria of "better existence". Personal enrichment, meh, true, we can't outbid Big Red, but that kind of deal basically requires selling out everyone else including your mother, and also typically yourself in some roundabout way where you end up over the barrel and gaining nothing because that's how the Deal Maker works.
And I hesitate to say this... except not really... but none of the other options in the bad guy category seem all that capable of making a convincing argument for eternal slavery. True society not being an opt-in, opt-out thing, one could try to qualify any monolithic political system as enslaving the will of the people toward some grand purpose, but that's so solipsistic an argument as to be completely irrelevant on a philosophical basis alone.
Viserys can only be argued to be a "bad guy" from a modern Earth POV (and even that's only really from a "Western" angle), with personal freedoms and rights treated as sacrosanct - virtual pillars of the cultures in which we live - and rule by the people is the de facto norm, where those who have what amounts to absolute authority are reviled as tyrants and oppressors. At literally any other point in human history, he would be considered an enlightened ruler, with nearly unparalleled generosity and wisdom.
Viserys can only be argued to be a "bad guy" from a modern Earth POV (and even that's only really from a "Western" angle), with personal freedoms and rights treated as sacrosanct - virtual pillars of the cultures in which we live - and rule by the people is the de facto norm, where those who have what amounts to absolute authority are reviled as tyrants and oppressors. At literally any other point in human history, he would be considered an enlightened ruler, with nearly unparalleled generosity and wisdom.
Once a plurality of people realize greater freedom can be obtained, they will act to gain it. This doesn't always result in the violent demise or vilification of absolutist monarchs, though it had the unfortunate connotations of tyranny associated with it in the West.
I would say, as I did earlier, what makes it likely Viserys will actually hold onto his authority for a long time is all of the numerous external threats pressuring the Imperium toward centralization and stronger militant authority.
If we somehow eliminate every single external threat except the big ones which can't be fully defeated, merely suppressed (within short-time frames at any rate), all Asmodeus would have to do to is, honestly, chill out for five or six thousand years and come take another crack at it when it has splintered into so many ideologically divisive polities that they are unwilling or unable to fight back (or at the very least Viserys is too distracted to put a stop to some easy harvests).
If we somehow eliminate every single external threat except the big ones which can't be fully defeated, merely suppressed (within short-time frames at any rate), all Asmodeus would have to do to is, honestly, chill out for five or six thousand years and come take another crack at it when it has splintered into so many ideologically divisive polities that they are unwilling or unable to fight back (or at the very least Viserys is too distracted to put a stop to some easy harvests).
all Asmodeus would have to do to is, honestly, chill out for five or six thousand years and come take another crack at it when it has splintered into so many ideologically divisive polities that they are unwilling or unable to fight back (or at the very least Viserys is too distracted to put a stop to some easy harvests).
I thought that gods are like the storm. They rise, they come, and they go. It'll take a thousand year or more, but unless you've imprinted enough narrative weight in the world, you will be forgotten one day. And your existence will be erased.
...
... ...
... ... ...oh, that's the thing isn't it.
He's like Bahamut/Tiamat in the sense that no matter how much time passes; even if the universe cracked and crumbles...
He'll still be there, ain't he?
How do we... win, against that? Do we merely survive for the next invasion?
I wouldn't say it's the Warhammer Paradox, because there's a big difference, in that the Imperium of Mankind is massively unnecessarily corrupt, whereas while Viserys do a lot of bad things, it's in the pursuit of making things better.
Viserys is far from a moral Paragon, but he's actively working to make a better world, and most of his evil policies, are explicitly meant to be temporary, Viserys is a man on war footing, ready to sacrifice a lot of morality to win, but he's also preparing to make things better after he has won.
That argument is counterproductive to Viserys, because while he don't see anything wrong with incest, he want to marry Lya not Dany, and that argument is more or less an argument, for why he should absolutely marry Dany for the stability of the realm.
I thought that gods are like the storm. They rise, they come, and they go. It'll take a thousand year or more, but unless you've imprinted enough narrative weight in the world, you will be forgotten one day. And your existence will be erased.
...
... ...
... ... ...oh, that's the thing isn't it.
He's like Bahamut/Tiamat in the sense that no matter how much time passes; even if the universe cracked and crumbles...
He'll still be there, ain't he?
How do we... win, against that? Do we merely survive for the next invasion?
Yeah. I'm fine with tacitly ignoring these things if there are no complaints and everything remains strictly between consenting adults, but I'm entirely against relinquishing the right to come down like a ton of bricks on any skeevy shite going on.
This is where you are making a moral stand. Not hundreds of people that would probably die in the vale civil war and then almost certainly go to hell. Its astounding.
This is where you are making a moral stand. Not hundreds of people that would probably die in the vale civil war and then almost certainly go to hell. Its astounding.
This is where you are making a moral stand. Not hundreds of people that would probably die in the vale civil war and then almost certainly go to hell. Its astounding.
Enemies who would be causing dissent within the Imperium (people we need to kill twice over anyway to appease the Old Gods) vs our citizens who we are oathbound to protect.
Wow, that is a very stark example of us versus them mentality. No they won't be, we can solve this diplomatically, we just don't want to do the effort it would take.
Enemies who would be causing dissent within the Imperium (people we need to kill twice over anyway to appease the Old Gods) vs our citizens who we are oathbound to protect.
This is where you are making a moral stand. Not hundreds of people that would probably die in the vale civil war and then almost certainly go to hell. Its astounding.
Firstly, you are still not making any appreciable sense with this. The reason I called it a "de facto civil war" is because it has all the trajectory of one, but the time frame is too short for anything to actually happen. This was repeatedly clarified.
Secondly, I'll make moral stands where I like to make them, thank you very much.
Thirdly, I'm all on board with making politics by the knife and doing in a few ten thousands of people for the sake of firm control in a centralized state, but indulging other peoples rape-boner is needlessly bad PR at best.
Wow, that is a very stark example of us versus them mentality. No they won't be, we can solve this diplomatically, we just don't want to do the effort it would take.
They are enemies because we're already committed to deposing House Arryn. We have been for thousands of pages now. If we were to just take away their kingdom and let them keep the Eyrie like we did with the Tyrells then they might be able to swallow that, but we're also taking the Eyrie. House Arryn will have nothing left. There's no way they and their retainers won't fight that tooth and nail.
Firstly, you are still not making any appreciable sense with this. The reason I called it a "de facto civil war" is because it has all the trajectory of one, but the time frame is too short for anything to actually happen. This was repeatedly clarified.
Oh no, the people that are very used to raids and skirmishes can't raid and skirmish while the levis are being raised. Your planned leads to burned villages and raped villagers.
Thirdly, I'm all on board with making politics by the knife and doing in a few ten thousands of people for the sake of firm control in a centralized state, but indulging other peoples rape-boner is needlessly bad PR at best.
The conquest of westeros was never meant to be entirely bloodless and the OG would be mightily angry at Viserys if he somehow, improbably, made it so. Four goals here;
1) Appease OG hateboner
2) Humble (and dissolve) Houses that would be entirely against us for cultural, political and religious reasons.
3) Subtly instigate the purges now (let's call them what they are) so Viserys does not have to do it later and shock the realm by unbridled violence. Here, it is Civil War. Later, it is the Foreign Tyrant Slaughtering Proud Scions. Even loyalists would somewhat balk at the latter.
4) Reward the very same loyalists grandly, by offering what they inherently understand within the worldview as great prizes (the former Arryn lands).
They are enemies because we're already committed to deposing House Arryn. We have been for thousands of pages now. If we were to just take away their kingdom and let them keep the Eyrie like we did with the Tyrells then they might be able to swallow that, but we're also taking the Eyrie. House Arryn will have nothing left. There's no way they and their retainers won't fight that tooth and nail.
That only makes house arryn our enemy at best. Once they realise out overwhelming military and intrigue might they won't do anything openly and we should only need a few days to break any conspiracy that they try to form, because we are so much better than them at that.
Oh no, the people that are very used to raids and skirmishes can't raid and skirmish while the levis are being raised. Your planned leads to burned villages and raped villagers.
We have been planning a large scale invasion of Westeros for quite a while. What exactly were you expecting? Zero civilian casualties or something? It's an entire continent we are talking about here, colateral is basically inevitable even if we make our best to minimise large scale destruction.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 24, 2020 at 6:35 AM, finished with 87 posts and 20 votes.
[X] Draft contracts (50,000 IM)
-[X] You will recognise the sacred places of the Fey as their own baronies, with the local Fey ruler receiving the title.
-[X] This implies that the Fey need to maintain their own council and can send some of their members to the county level council as per the Imperial constitution. If they want to be represented at higher levels, they need to be elected in the regular process.
-[X] All Scholarium branches in the Imperium will have to create an office that deals with the concerns of the Fey in their area. Preferably this office will be staffed by Fey who are actively involved in the Scholarium themselves.
-[X] All matters that concern the life and limb of Fey, such as rulings for feeding on mortals, unforeseen magical events or similar urgent matters can be escalated directly to the Crown by Fey barons or the Scholariums Fey liaisons.
-[X] You will also sponsor two Imperium wide holidays / festivals, but there will be no exceptions from standing law in regards to mind affecting magical effects.
--[X] A fertility festival at the spring equinox.
--[X] A harvest festival at the fall equinox.
[X] Law of the Deathless (Requires 50,000 IM in reagents to craft the contracts binding upon the fey to obey imperial law and the Empire to never willfully harm their hallowed places) -[X] Wardens of Nature (obligation to arrange for fey advisors on local councils throughout the Reach, this need not be everywhere but must include most dukes of the Reach) [X] Receive a report (Interlude series) -[X] From Ghoyan Drohe
A bargain is struck a dozen times over, allegiance for protection in perpetuity for the sacred groves, each lord and lady of the fey to be granted the privileges and duties of a baron. Though many in the Greenwood were loath to answer to the word of mortal lords whom even the more kindly among them deemed blind and unknowing in the ways of magic and the land's secret paths, it was eventually agreed that they could bring such concerns to the Scholarum and from there would be guaranteed a royal audience in urgent matters. Thus in Sorcerer's Deep harbinger devils freed from the yoke of Mammon begin to craft a contract like yet unlike their previous fare. It would bind just as tightly lords and crown alike as any pact inked with iron and brimstone, but it was fairer by far in letter and in spirit than any of Hell's workings,
Though you know the pact will be signed, the fey of the Greenwood sworn to your banners would have to be deaf not to hear the grumbling of the wilder spirits. They would much rather have had a few days of ultimate freedom over carefully husbanded power and assured protection, and so you propose a festival in spring and one in fall to celebrate fertility and the cycles of the year if not in so unrestrained a manner as some of the satyrs and their kin might wish. Your empire's laws stand against the worst of their impulses as surely as it does against the depravities of demons or the withering touch of Abaddon.
The festivals are not to be written in the contracts of vassalage, their rules and strictures yet to be decided and changed as suits circumstances.
***
So it is that you move from woodlands to the shore to meet those who in the songs of faerie are remembered as the Courts of the Deep, the guardians of the secret places beneath the waves where no mortal eye has ever seen. Thankfully here too you do not pass into their realm a stranger. Triton horns blow deep and sonorous, a greeting... and a song of mourning, for those you now swim to meet are not in truth the masters of the deep waters. Other darker things have long since taken their places, whom men have come to call by the same name for few but sages would know or care about the differences among those who dwell in the lightness places.
"Does it ever stop being strange to just walk into the ocean like this?" Asha asks from your right. In spite of her words you do not miss the fact that she had chosen to be here with you and Ser Richard in place of Danar and Alyssa. The journey into the east had not slaked her desire for adventure, but stoked it.
"Most things do," Ser Richard offers from your other side as he sinks into the waters of the Whispering Sound faster than any of the rest of you by virtue of his plate. "Watch out for things buried in the sand. They could bite you clean off at the knee..."
"Hey!" a small voice called from up ahead as a tinny figure emerges in a cloud of loose sand. "I resemble that!" The fey has skin the same color as the seafloor but marked with stripes that would help hide him among the swift moving shadows. His wings are more akin to the fins of shore fish, though you suspect he could fly if he had to. "The hiding part, not the biting off at the knee, you look really tough with all that ironmongery," he adds quickly.
As the sprite's gaze slides to Asha he gives a charming smile. "Glad I am you did not take after him, bearer of the King's Mark. It would be a waste to hide thine beauty behind heavy iron."
Asha has clearly spent enough time around Moonsong not to be shocked at flirtation from a two foot tall sprite. "As it is a waste of my time to listen to compliments light as kelp strands on the tide."
"Ah... fair one, but the tide is not passing thing. Come, let me show you to him who has watched over it for time out of mind of thine folk," he replies.
Deeper you tread as the waters go from murky brown heavy with silt to clear cerulean under the light of the summer sky, mats of green algae pass above like clouds shading your path and all around you fey creatures great and small begin to make themselves known. You spy singers with hair of tangled kelp and satyrs' kin with horns grown long and pale as the crescent moon, a fish's tail in place of hooves, but the one who sits tangled around a throne of coral and crumbled stone is stranger by far to those who walk the drylands. In form they are something between squid and bearded worm, his face a nest of writhing tentacles. Grandfather Tide meets your gaze with eyes black as as star-strewn night reflected in deep waters.
"Hail Prince of the Air, and to you also Child of Bright Mind," he whispers through the current, addressing you and the mind dragon by turn before also turning to Asha. "Glad I am to see one of your line Salt-Born, freed from the madness below."
Asha bows slightly though her hand is never far from her axe, obviously finding the company a touch more disquieting than flirtatious nixies.
"I have heard of your offer to the People of the Waves to dwell in houses of stone in the shadow of your palace," the strange fey continues, "But we are not as they are, of tide and currents born and to them bound evermore. Though we keep to the shallows we cannot linger in one place overlong lest we drown like the shark tangled in mortal nets."
"In my realm there are many coasts and many ports for you to visit if such is your way. There is strength in gathering in purpose and that strength shall be the doom of those who have taken the deep places from you."
"Your words are fair King of Two Hearts, but that alone cannot be the price of our oaths, if you would bring us to war against the scourge of the depths then we ask for protection in our wanderings as any vassal does of his lord."
What do you reply?
[] Assign flesh-forged beings to protect the various fey beings on their journeys
-[] Write in
[] Create paths of safe passages to the Endless Ocean in your realm, allowing the fey to travel further than ever before (Commitment to creating several more terminuses with access to the Plane of Water)
[] Write in
OOC: I changed out Danar and Alyssa for Asha who was free this month anyway because she plays off the sea fey much better than they do, also it makes sense IC for her to look for a bit of adventure.
We have been planning a large scale invasion of Westeros for quite a while. What exactly were you expecting? Zero civilian casualties or something? It's an entire continent we are talking about here, colateral is basically inevitable even if we make our best to minimise large scale destruction.
