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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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The point isn't the numbers increasing, it's the fact they're not wasting a shitton of material and reagents for it, which means they can afford to do other things with that money.
 
Then we use the sudden excess of adamantium to accelerate research into the anvils of doom which don't turn off.

Personally I want anvils simply because they boost the power of things made on them.
Feels like trying to go for the Anvil research is forced since we would only be doing it due to meta knowledge. Think we should just wait for the guy that makes it to make it. Get the feeling that said guy is a Snerra level genius so if he born soon or already born we wouldn't need to wait that long.

On the Anvil of Doom thing just got an idea. How would people feel about the idea of creating a giant shield that doubles as an Anvil of Doom to go with a super Gronti piloted by a Runelord? Nothing says 'fuck you' to the enemies of Dawi then a giant super Gronti made of either Pure Gromril or even Adamant being piloted by a Runelord carrying a shield that is also an Anvil of Doom.
 
I think its fair to be worried about industrialization because of the conversations happening about how to industrialize the adamant production process and how that would interact with the rule of pride. People are discussing how to do it, so waving the concern away saying it won't happen feels disingenuous.

Fundamentally the rule of pride exists as a cultural norm. I feel like we should respect cultural norms especially when the character we are piloting lives in the culture.

From a meta prospective the rule of pride acts as a constraint on the thread. It forces the thread to explore new options and experience new things. Would I like every ax in Kraka Drakk to have the metor combo? Yes, yes I would. But that would boring to write about and boring to read if our runelord spent all his time on only a couple of tasks.
Thing is even without the rune of pride not every axe could get the combo, that's just the way runesmithing is.

The reason I'm not worried about mass production is that fundamentally runesmithing and things related to it are artisinal, you can increase supply through getting more proliferation, but you will never have mass production.

An income of 60 bars a decade for the entire Karaz Ankor isn't mass production its barely a drip.

I agree though, dismissing the rule of pride does strike me as silly since there's no real need.

Feels like trying to go for the Anvil research is forced since we would only be doing it due to meta knowledge. Think we should just wait for the guy that makes it to make it. Get the feeling that said guy is a Snerra level genius so if he born soon or already born we wouldn't need to wait that long.

On the Anvil of Doom thing just got an idea. How would people feel about the idea of creating a giant shield that doubles as an Anvil of Doom to go with a super Gronti piloted by a Runelord? Nothing says 'fuck you' to the enemies of Dawi then a giant super Gronti made of either Pure Gromril or even Adamant being piloted by a Runelord carrying a shield that is also an Anvil of Doom.
Not particularly we are about to become part of the organisation of people whose job is to research how to make the anvils fundamentally. To break the law of only 1 master rune per object. I don't believe we'll be contributing directly necessarily, but we kinda got soft locked into helping out when we got sniffed.

Seems good to me.
 
I think the best chance we've got of accomplishing the Brotherhood's mission is the tier 5 Gromril. It might allow either 4 runes or 2 master runes.
 
The point isn't the numbers increasing, it's the fact they're not wasting a shitton of material and reagents for it, which means they can afford to do other things with that money.
That's not quite true, the over all amount is increasing...I think? At the end of the day they'll all have a steady income of the stuff.

I think the best chance we've got of accomplishing the Brotherhood's mission is the tier 5 Gromril. It might allow either 4 runes or 2 master runes.
mmm given the nature of the Anvils I think its possible just really really hard to do it Adamantite level.

That being said depending on whether T5 is Glimril or the crystal stuff it may not take runes at all.
 
That's not quite true, the over all amount is increasing...I think? At the end of the day they'll all have a steady income of the stuff.


mmm given the nature of the Anvils I think its possible just really really hard to do it Adamantite level.

That being said depending on whether T5 is Glimril or the crystal stuff it may not take runes at all.
Well, that's true too. Would be kinda funny if it can't. So, how do we know that Anvil's of Doom are Adamant? You've mentioned that before, but I've always thought they were just basic Gromril.
 
[X] Plan just the runes, please
[X] Plan Voidstones for Voidstone, Adamant for Adamant
[X] Plan Voidstones for Voidstone
-[X] Sell: Total 22 + 4 Base = 26
--[X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
--[X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
--[X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
--[X] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
-[X] Buy: Total 26
--[X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
--[X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
--[X] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
--[X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
--[X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
--[X] 3 Progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
 
What if this thing that just happened happens, and the only reason we know how it could have happened isn't actually the only reason, what do we do then?

Thats what you just asked me. Think about that.
In canon it became hard enough to awaken gronti that it took multiple runesmiths to awaken one group, with their leader turning to stone in the process. Considering what we've seen of gronti in this quest, I'd say that turning to stone like the chaos dwarves do is going to make more to happen than just lost knowledge. If you want an army of adamant gronti as an enduring legacy to continue aiding the dawi well past the golden age its a valid concern.
 
Gonna start reading, but first:
Snorri, son of Snorri, son of Snorri, daughter of Snorri, cousin of Snorri, roommate of Snorri, and bartender of Snorri.

Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri Snorri...
It's Snorri all the way down.
 
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Or we could not and just accept adamant for what it is. A rare limited ingredient.

I'ts always going to be limited, something made in small batches over the course of years or decades. I'm just pointing out its an interesting theological issue with applying the rule of pride to infrastructure. Though, now that I think about it, probably not a novel one. A lot of infrastructure gets runed so the dawi most certainly have an answer to it.
 
If we're getting to the point that we can commonly slather giant gronti in the stuff then we're at mass production time, otherwise not really.
This measure is actually pretty easy to achieve.

As it stands, it only takes six Smelters to make enough Adamant to armor a dwarf in it every turn. Could we ever armor every single dwarf in Kraka Drakk? Nah, that wouldn't be happening.

However its only two turns at that rate of production required to make the amount of Adamant necessary to make an Adamant suit of armor/skin for an Ogre sized Gronti. 18 bars to make it out of Adamant entirely if I remember what soul has said correctly.

Also IIRC soulcake said it was 32 bars to make a Bloodthirster sized gronti out of Adamant. If you use the math for the Ogre sized one that comes out to needing between 10 and 12 bars, either way at 3 bars a turn that would take four turns of waiting. 4 bars a turn, eight smelters, would be 3 turns, 5 bars a turn would 2 turns etc.

Ten smelters is a lot I'll grant you that but what I'm getting at is more highlighting a point I raised a while back that even singular bars per turn increases are Very Significant in terms of what it lets us do. Its not particularly difficult, mostly just time consuming, to get to the point where we're making what I expect would be more than Snorri will most often use in a turn and will be encouraged to stockpile the rest for bigger projects. This point is getting to 4 bars a turn, since we can spend between 1 and 3 bars every turn on projects and save 1 since we won't often have projects that call for more than 3 bars all at once. Our project timescale for stuff shortens nicely with this.

We have in our hands the means to basically be able to make most of our dwarf-scale creations, our most common scale of creations, out of Adamant if we spend any significant effort in that direction. I don't however consider this mass production or production of scale, because its still fundamentally just Snorri and his closest compatriots in his apprentices benefiting as artisans because they can make dwarf scale creations out of it whenever they want but large scale creations take a large amount of time.

To wrap it back around to the mass production argument, personally on my end it wouldn't make any sense for it to happen. There's cultural pressures and impetus not to and I have no inclination to make it happen because it countermands the point of playing within the limits of a Runelord as a character. Thankfully, referring at the above, I don't think its going to happen because of smelters Snorri personally builds.

At the moment 65 bars every fifty years is the current max output of the entire Karaz Ankor counting us and the Brotherhood. As Bogrin laid out, about a dozen every decade, which means that Snorri is responsible for one twelfth of the entire Karaz Ankor's adamant production in its current artisnal scale. Like, that sounds significant, but then consider the scale it operates on and its in the grand scheme of things not that comparable to the ideas of mass production.

Looking at the above if every member of the brotherhood made one Smelter, together we'd all produce 71 bars a turn (Soul's outlined they have 70 members), one for each of them every turn and one for us. This is a qualitative improvement on a huge scale, even before we get into the five turn total. That five turn total would be 355 bars a decade. However there are a couple of things which interact with this hypothetical to discourage it:

The training time required to teach everyone in the Brotherhood the Master Rune of Purification. This is going to impose a hierarchy of prioritization, probably relatively similar to the hierarchy of seniority present in the brotherhood because that's how Dwarves generally work. Old folks get the best stuff because they're skilled enough to make best use of it, in their minds.

The time to make 70 smelters. This has multiple factors, one of them connecting to a later point about the plausible rarity of voidstone, but also has to do with the time it may take to hunt down more voidstone. This is going to reinforce the idea that those who go out to look around, i.e those with the time to do that instead of other things, are going to find it and build theirs first once they learn how.

Both of these time factors of the problem will slow the hypothetical down, as will any other ones that I may not have thought of.

Another important factor is the amount of voidstone on the planet may not support every member getting one. To connect to the above point about making smelters, it might be possible to find or create that much over an extended period of time, but Snorri found one tenth of the required amount on a lucky roll. But its limited supply is still a significant crimp on actually making this much, even if I think its a resolvable one.

A factor that I think is the most significant is that once knowledge of the Master Rune and smelting array is disseminated Snorri's fellows are going to have interest in adapting the Master Rune into their own specialties. Engineering Runes, Banner Runes, Armor and Weapon Runes. Every piece of voidstone put into an adapted Master Rune of Purification or a talisman using the original rune that isn't a Smelter, is one that won't go into making a Smelter and there is nothing really to be done to resolve that competition other than finding an alternate material. Every Runelord and Runesmith that wants to make something else than a Smelter with voidstone will consume voidstone that could have become a Smelter. So, there's going to be a sharp limit on the number of Smelters produced during the scope of the Golden Age and this quest, since those are synonymous.

And for as much as 355 bars every half century is, I don't think it really meets my measure of mass production because it is fundamentally one bar per runesmith per decade. If they pooled their resources they could do amazing things with it, but they'd be one offs because of who they are. My own measure of mass production would be something closer to what small scale mass production means IRL, and involves stuff like being able to make enough Adamant to armor a thousand dwarves every decade, if you had the workyears to do it. (Not workhours) Which if 71 individuals are responsible for it you wouldn't.

Furthermore to make 3000 bars of adamant every decade, and thus make enough for 1000 suits of armor every decade, 6000 Smelters would need to be made. That would require that the 71 dwarves of the brotherhood, and us, make 85 Smelters each.

It's mindboggling how much voidstone you would need. Put that together with what I lay out above, and most of the caution that I think needs to happen with Adamant production that applies to things in scope of this quest is getting to the point Snorri can put out a suit of armor for a dwarf every turn and still stockpile some. And that's because of how it would obviously change our behavior because of the project timescale we move to at that point.
 
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I'm just pointing out its an interesting theological issue with applying the rule of pride to infrastructure
Its less bad than it seems on the surface. For infrastructure, the Rune applies to one single object, whether that object be a single hammer or an entire Hold. Thats generally sufficient, the rune usually scales up fine. Few Master Runes are appropriately used when the effect is meant to apply weakly to a lot of places rather than powerfully to one, you can use the far easier Combos for it

The Adamant purification on the other hand, has the main limiter being the amount of magical energy it demands. Not the number of Runes, I expect we're going to run into diminishing returns soon enough, no matter how much Voidstone we have, where the rune's magic capture zone simply starts overlapping because theres not enough space in the Hold.

The crux there for the next step in efficiency should be pumping the magic into the Rune from a wider region than its immediate collection zone. Given sufficient magical energy I don't think theres any problem with one smelter popping out a bar of Adamant every year, though admittedly, I'm not sure how you could have that much magic in one place without an open rift to the Warp.
 
Its less bad than it seems on the surface. For infrastructure, the Rune applies to one single object, whether that object be a single hammer or an entire Hold. Thats generally sufficient, the rune usually scales up fine. Few Master Runes are appropriately used when the effect is meant to apply weakly to a lot of places rather than powerfully to one, you can use the far easier Combos for it

The Adamant purification on the other hand, has the main limiter being the amount of magical energy it demands. Not the number of Runes, I expect we're going to run into diminishing returns soon enough, no matter how much Voidstone we have, where the rune's magic capture zone simply starts overlapping because theres not enough space in the Hold.

The crux there for the next step in efficiency should be pumping the magic into the Rune from a wider region than its immediate collection zone. Given sufficient magical energy I don't think theres any problem with one smelter popping out a bar of Adamant every year, though admittedly, I'm not sure how you could have that much magic in one place without an open rift to the Warp.

that's a good point, the limiting factor even with the rule of pride might be how much magic is available. Which may push some research down interesting paths if some runelords start looking for ways to increase the amount of magic available in safe ways. I'm a massive sucker for this kind of magical engineering stuff, though this stuff may not be the focus of the quest.
 
that's a good point, the limiting factor even with the rule of pride might be how much magic is available. Which may push some research down interesting paths if some runelords start looking for ways to increase the amount of magic available in safe ways. I'm a massive sucker for this kind of magical engineering stuff, though this stuff may not be the focus of the quest.
I think it kind of can be, sort of? But more in the sense of stuff like interacting with the idea of Waystones or Menhirs/Ogham stones and other kinds of specifically Anti-Chaos megaprojects.
 
I think it kind of can be, sort of? But more in the sense of stuff like interacting with the idea of Waystones or Menhirs/Ogham stones and other kinds of specifically Anti-Chaos megaprojects.

that's a good point. Elves know how to move magic around in industrial quantities. This would also mean a massive possibly somewhat sacred runelord megaproject was only possible with elven help, which would also be neat.
 
Does anyone else want to eventually use the Master Rune of Unyielding in order to come up with an armor combo later on for us? You know, since we will probably have enough Adamant to make a suit of armor for ourselves. I don't think this is an immediate priority or anything as I'm not expecting another conflict to arise anytime soon. But when I look at how we fared during our last bout of combat, I really do think that we'll need to improve from our old armor soon, as eventually one of our enemies will decide to shank the annoying Runesmith who's snuffing out all of the magic.
 
Does anyone else want to eventually use the Master Rune of Unyielding in order to come up with an armor combo later on for us? You know, since we will probably have enough Adamant to make a suit of armor for ourselves. I don't think this is an immediate priority or anything as I'm not expecting another conflict to arise anytime soon. But when I look at how we fared during our last bout of combat, I really do think that we'll need to improve from our old armor soon, as eventually one of our enemies will decide to shank the annoying Runesmith who's snuffing out all of the magic.
I do yeah! I mentioned doing Unyielding + Fortitude + Determination a while back as a possible combo.
 
I do yeah! I mentioned doing Unyielding + Fortitude + Determination a while back as a possible combo.

Oooh, that sounds like it should work well, hopefully at least. We probably still need to get the reagents for the Master Rune of Unyielding and then work on testing things first. Hopefully some of our research can yield some new runes or combos we could use for a new weapon rune too, as we're going to need to work on that eventually.
 
Oooh, that sounds like it should work well, hopefully at least. We probably still need to get the reagents for the Master Rune of Unyielding and then work on testing things first. Hopefully some of our research can yield some new runes or combos we could use for a new weapon rune too, as we're going to need to work on that eventually.
One of my biggest hopes right now is that even if we are forced to come up with a Theme for the King of The Skies Armor, like I somewhat expect given the time crunch related to it, we'll come up with an Armor Combo. And from that Combo can extrapolate related ones so that we have a better basis to go off of.

These runes we're purchasing provide us more tools to do that with in my mind.
 
It's also something we could use for the Princely Panoply if/when we take that Request.
[ ] [Difficult] A Princely Panoply Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Choose 2. Otrek has come to you with a minor request, seeking your expertise in armouring the scions of the King of the Skies in fine Gromril armour capable of keeping the Griffon's legacy alive as a gift to be given. He who Thinks and He who Remembers have different philosophies over the kind of armour they want. The former wants to retain his speed and dexterity while the latter wishes to improve his already formidable endurance and toughness. a multi-work project.
Regeneration + Steelskin sounds like just the thing He who Remembers is looking for, with Tirelessness being an extra bonus that seems particularly good for a Griffon that's wearing armour.

Actually wondering if we might use the Master Rune of Unyielding for the King of the Sky's Armour. Since we already did two uses of the Master Rune of Gromril recently for the Ironarms, so doing it a third time might run afoul the Rule of Pride. Plus, Unyielding seems to fit him pretty well after his defiance against Kholek.
 
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