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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Takesis said:
Titan tools to carve a channel to the sea.
Iceboats/flat glaciers by Rina.
Sail past Eastwatch.
Gate.
*Profits from Mammoth Cheese sounds
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I think like @Goldfish says, we don't have time to waste doing that. We can just approach the Wall with them in tow and say we're transporting them south and out of Westeros and just need to bypass Brandon's Anchor do to so.

We spent RL YEARS building up relations with the Night's Watch, we should take advantage of them especially in the case that it removes powerful undead enemies from troubling them in the future. It also accounts for free PR with the North. Viserys saved the last of the giants. That's some northern pride for you.
 
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Harried said:
The thing I'm worried about is the possibility that even if we convince them to move, they wouldn't want to leave this place because it's a sacred site from way back when, and it'll eventually turn out that there's a semi-operational cloud castle lodged in a glacier somewhere that they'd be extremely loath to leave.
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That's honestly not a concern.

The reason they're at the Fist at all is because they needed to decide who among them would be their leader so they could negotiate with the Night's Watch for safe passage south of the Wall.

They're already committed to getting the hell out of dodge and avoiding becoming wight slaves of the Others.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 7, 2020 at 3:55 PM, finished with 39 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] Well, there's currently no one more knowledgeable in law nor more skilled at parring down words than Viserys.
    -[X] Compose a series of increasingly more complex (upward from the most simplistic at its core) logical exercises (described as stories/tales) that explain why rule of law is to the benefit of even the mighty, where might alone means absolutely nothing in a world where you cannot strike your foe down with force of arms, or your foe has built tools which can lay waste to your peoples sight unseen.
    -[X] For example, a disease spreads through a tribe, one their lone medicine man or shaman is not capable of combating, but their neighbors have a group of healers sworn to the local lord who in turn is sworn to the king, and the king repeats the practice throughout his lands and enforces laws to keep disease from sprouting by citing precedent to keep even the strongest of his vassals from grumbling because similar precedents have gained them much in the past.
    -[X] To be honest, the goal would be to state that both laws and the feudal contract aren't a zero-sum game, and your realm is built up more around chains of bureaus answering to people who traditionally do not command respect through being martial leaders, yet despite that are the best people for the job and help ensure that society runs smoothly, that there is always food on the table in lean times, buildings are always in good repair and no one does something to spread misfortune, something a more tribal society can acknowledge as only by all leaders abiding by a rule do they hold any value. Yet those same people administering the law derive authority through those most capable of upholding them as there is a mutual benefit to doing so.
    [X] Try to explain the concept of law and how it benefits them
    -[X] "I do not ask you or any of your fellows to kneel to me, Grum Nar Wun Woh Tum. Instead, I offer you a new home, a land far from the threat of Winter. All that I ask in turn is that you obey my laws, the rules by which everyone in my ream lives."
    --[X] "Murder, theft, slavery..." go on to explain the basics of what our laws forbid, along with what they allow.
    ---[X] "When everyone obeys these laws, many people, many being of all types, whether they be Human, Giant, Squirrel or Serpent folk-
    [X] Well, there's currently no one more knowledgeable in law nor more skilled at parring down words than Viserys.
    -[X] Compose a series of increasingly more complex (upward from the most simplistic at its core) logical exercises (described as stories/tales) that explain why rule of law is to the benefit of even the mighty, where might alone means absolutely nothing in a world where you cannot strike your foe down with force of arms, or your foe has built tools which can lay waste to your peoples sight unseen.
    -[X] For example, a disease spreads through a tribe, one their lone medicine man or shaman is not capable of combating, but their neighbors have a group of healers sworn to the local lord who in turn is sworn to the king, and the king repeats the practice throughout his lands and enforces laws to keep disease from sprouting by citing precedent to keep even the strongest of his vassals from grumbling because similar precedents have gained them much in the past.
    -[X] To be honest, the goal would be to state that both laws and the feudal contract aren't a zero-sum game, and your realm is built up more around chains of bureaus answering to people who traditionally do not command respect through being martial leaders, yet despite that are the best people for the job and help ensure that society runs smoothly, that there is always food on the table in lean times, buildings are always in good repair and no one does something to spread misfortune, something a more tribal society can acknowledge as only by all leaders abiding by a rule do they hold any value. Yet those same people administering the law derive authority through those most capable of upholding them as there is a mutual benefit to doing so.
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DragonParadox said:
"What you do now only with better tools and friendly folk to trade with," you reply at once. It would be more than it's worth to transport the mammoth herds alongside their masters, but you can certainly birth more in the flesh forge, ones adapted to warmer climes perhaps. While you certainly do not lack for empty land most of it is considerably warmer than the Far North.
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The mammoth shouldn't be left behind, that's a lot of beasts going to waste, sure transporting them is too expensive, but if we can't bring them, we could ask the giants to bring them near to the Wall for trade, they seem to fear the Wall so we can't ask them to bring them right to the Wall, but near enough that the Watch can take them over should be possible.

Well that or can't we cast mass polymorph at this point? I think our mythic path included that, and I don't think mammoth herds have much of any ability to resist polymorph, so can't we turn them all to turtles, stow them in the Moonchaser, and turn them back where we settle the giants?

Yeah Polymorphing all the mammoth seem better than leaving them behind, sure they will be hot in the south, but they're called wooly mammoth for a reason, they keep themselves warm with wool, regular shearing should allow a mammoth herder to keep his flock comfortable, and mammoth wool should sell well enough.
DragonParadox said:
"Magnar of Magnars you said you were." the giant who still had not introduced himself replies through gritted teeth. "So who are these Magnars then, who are we to kneel to? Men who'll fear us and want to use us when they don't try to drive us off! You want Grum Nar Wun Woh Tum to kneel then you get all those little ones here to wrestle me!"
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Do they demand to wrestle all our leaders, or just the one they will live under, because I'm sure we have at least 1 Lord who can do it.

Or just tell them that they're a big enough population, that they should have their own Magnar(or council if they prefer that) which as we are Magnar of Magnar, not Magnar of Magnar of Magnar, would answer directly to us, and be considered the equal of any of the other Magnars, of course that's not really true, there's more than 2 levels to our society, but we could promise them that we would recognize them as an independent people, with a Magnar that answer directly to us.
 
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Yeah, derived authority is a bit shaky even now, at least to the degree we intend, unless its provable that the authority that your officials wield is actually the intent of the decree given.

For example, matters of taxation.

The truth is closer to an understanding and a certain degree of compromise agreed upon in advance between us and the leaders of the giants, than any kind of true comprehension of our system of governance.
 
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DragonParadox said:
You can't fix it that easily, the trouble is the lack of any concept of devolved authority, so stuff like listening to the lawmen who definitely can't wrestle them and might not be able to manage sufficient wisdom either.
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Ok that makes sense.

Also can we mass polymorph the Mammoth, to cheaply bring them south, mass polymorphing the giants for cheaper transportation would be rude, but the mammoth are just animals, there shouldn't be any problem with temporarily turtling them, and I'm sure the giants will appreciate keeping their flocks, sure we could make them better mammoths, but they're probably uncomfortable being this much in our debt as it is, not adding all their animals being gifts from us to the debt they feel they owe us, will probably be better for their pride as a people.
 
tarrangar said:
Ok that makes sense.

Also can we mass polymorph the Mammoth, to cheaply bring them south, mass polymorphing the giants for cheaper transportation would be rude, but the mammoth are just animals, there shouldn't be any problem with temporarily turtling them, and I'm sure the giants will appreciate keeping their flocks, sure we could make them better mammoths, but they're probably uncomfortable being this much in our debt as it is, not adding all their animals being gifts from us to the debt they feel they owe us, will probably be better for their pride as a people.
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It's not necessary. We can Gate them and the Giants easily.
 
Given the cultural elements it's not crazy to set up a smallish Giant holding where the only direct feudal authority is their Magnar who answers to Viserys. I mean you don't want to make too many exceptional cases out there but, you know, giants.
 
Slacker said:
Given the cultural elements it's not crazy to set up a smallish Giant holding where the only direct feudal authority is their Magnar who answers to Viserys. I mean you don't want to make too many exceptional cases out there but, you know, giants.
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The plan is to settle them in somewhere and make one of them (agreed upon by the group of giants) the Baron of the area, then have him recruit some "lawmen" (giants) and other officials into acting as the local administration would. Long-term integration would be the goal. Lack of immediate problems would be acceptable.
 
I want a Mammoth for the Flesh Forges. Further, I want a sample of every species of Prime Material for the Flesh Forge. We will have the blueprints for everything under the sun.
 
So, how will we be framing the battle at the Thennhold for the next month's Imperial Times?
 
Also, since we promised the Spirit-bear that no living (that cannot fight) will remain beyond the wall by the time the winter comes-
Shall we, you know... just scry-and-die the less sensible groups than Thenns?
Iirc there were some.
 
egoo said:
Also, since we promised the Spirit-bear that no living (that cannot fight) will remain beyond the wall by the time the winter comes-
Shall we, you know... just scry-and-die the less sensible groups than Thenns?
Iirc there were some.
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Given how insane our social skills are once fully buffed will this actually be necessary?

Also killing people who do not take action against us or commit morally repugnant acts may make some of our companions very unhappy. At the very least Waymer, Xor, and Rina will object if they found out about this plan, and I suspect Dany, Lya, and Vee would be at the very least uncomfortable with the plan. I am not sure the interpersonal problems we will have to deal with will outweigh the benefits of eliminating source of undead here.
 
egoo said:
Also, since we promised the Spirit-bear that no living (that cannot fight) will remain beyond the wall by the time the winter comes-
Shall we, you know... just scry-and-die the less sensible groups than Thenns?
Iirc there were some.
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Smartphone said:
Given how insane our social skills are once fully buffed will this actually be necessary?

Also killing people who do not take action against us or commit morally repugnant acts may make some of our companions very unhappy. At the very least Waymer, Xor, and Rina will object if they found out about this plan, and I suspect Dany, Lya, and Vee would be at the very least uncomfortable with the plan. I am not sure the interpersonal problems we will have to deal with will outweigh the benefits of eliminating source of undead here.
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Basically just sending mid-level or high-level groups of PCs out to hunt every last group of wildlings and convincing them to kneel in the south.

Some will inevitably want to stay and fight, and they'll be the first to die in the Long Night. But that's just natural selection. If we honestly can't convince a wildling to come south where the Others can't at least for the moment swarm the place with their tides of undead then there was never any hope for them.

There are also going to be idiots who are worshiping fiends, Ymeri, and the Others, and they will be sacrificed.
Artemis1992 said:
Didn't that Wildling woman manage to stab the bear where he deserved it?
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I think it survived. But even if it were killed I don't think that would free us of a blood oath made in front of the Old Gods. That seems too easy of a loophole to work.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 7, 2020 at 4:11 PM, finished with 41 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] Well, there's currently no one more knowledgeable in law nor more skilled at parring down words than Viserys.
    -[X] Compose a series of increasingly more complex (upward from the most simplistic at its core) logical exercises (described as stories/tales) that explain why rule of law is to the benefit of even the mighty, where might alone means absolutely nothing in a world where you cannot strike your foe down with force of arms, or your foe has built tools which can lay waste to your peoples sight unseen.
    -[X] For example, a disease spreads through a tribe, one their lone medicine man or shaman is not capable of combating, but their neighbors have a group of healers sworn to the local lord who in turn is sworn to the king, and the king repeats the practice throughout his lands and enforces laws to keep disease from sprouting by citing precedent to keep even the strongest of his vassals from grumbling because similar precedents have gained them much in the past.
    -[X] To be honest, the goal would be to state that both laws and the feudal contract aren't a zero-sum game, and your realm is built up more around chains of bureaus answering to people who traditionally do not command respect through being martial leaders, yet despite that are the best people for the job and help ensure that society runs smoothly, that there is always food on the table in lean times, buildings are always in good repair and no one does something to spread misfortune, something a more tribal society can acknowledge as only by all leaders abiding by a rule do they hold any value. Yet those same people administering the law derive authority through those most capable of upholding them as there is a mutual benefit to doing so.
Click to expand...
 
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Part MMMCDLXXXVII: Tales False and True
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    • Tales False and True ​

    Tenth Day of the First Month 294 AC

    You are almost tempted to let Dany wrestle the younger giant. With enough magic you have no doubt she would manage it and seeing so strange a sight might just convince the rest to try out strange ways of doing things, but on the other side of the coin Grum Nar had been wise enough not to try for a physical challenge once you had shapeshifted and tried instead to sway his fellows with words alone, a habit worth encouraging to be sure.

    "Xor," you call, motioning the spectator over, "I think we have heard enough tales of battle and heroism. Time I think for more peaceful fare."

    For once even Ser Richard does not seem troubled when you have to talk down a belligerent adversary, though that may be the dawn mead. Waymar and Tyene, who had been trying to get a headcount of all the giants present, join you while Lya and Vee are still walking around the old walls, trying perhaps to make some sense of the magic of this place.

    "You asked why you should serve those who do not prove themselves strong or wise enough to you in person. Well, it brought to mind the tale of two villages in the marshlands far to the south which had to deal with an illness that had never before been seen in those lands..."

    Not one word of the tales you spin with Xor and at times Tyene's aid is true in the common sense, people and events made up whole cloth between one breath and the next, and yet they are true in the deeper meaning that folk of all sort find it easier to aid each other when they can trust not only the strong or the wise, but their messengers also.

    In a realm of uncounted thousands, Tyene explains, drawing illusions upon the air, one cannot check every judgement to its source lest the one who delivered them be overwhelmed and have time for nothing else. It amuses you to realize that one 'tribal gathering' must be modeled after one of her uncle's more memorable audiences. The image of 'Doran Martell, clan chief,' has you biting back a smile more than once but it seems to be working remarkably well.

    When Mag Mar joins in speaking of how difficult it had been at first to assign grazing so that the land would not be stripped bare by the mammoths before it was time to make the long journey south the concept of a common good firmly agreed upon and not argued upon in certain settings begins to take shape. "Stupid to burst in when I'm drying meat and argue over grazing, ain't it? Maybe I ask someone else who's good at arguing and judging but not good at thumping heads to do talking." he nods firmly. "If we didn't all see walls maybe walls not get built at all, dead things sneak in at night..."

    "You saw the walls, the new ones that you just built?" Dany asks, eyes going wide in understanding. "Like in dream, that is how you knew where to put them?"

    "Only good sense," Grum Nar grouses. He hadn't taken well to having his thunder stolen by strange stories of the south, but he had not drifted away from the fire either.

    "So it is, and good sense to go south, but better in lands you are welcome than among those you would be feared because of false tales of giants," Xor interjects with an approving bob.

    "Strange land, not understand all, but am willing to try." Mag Mar glances at some of his younger fellows. "You scared of new thing? I tried many new things in life, came out stronger and wiser. If no try, never learn." A general rumble of approval goes through the assembled giants.

    "Make big moot tomorrow to see if choose dragon, bring all giants from herds and hunting!" Nar Og call out in support. A few dissenting voices rise, but they are promptly shouted down with combined bellows that seem to shake the ground.

    What do you do next?

    [] Ask more questions
    -[] About the Moot
    -[] About the dream many giants seemed to share
    -[] Write in

    [] Study the magic of this place
    -[] Write in how

    [] Write in

    OOC: Well that went pretty well, not perfect or anything but you got the giants listening at least.
     
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