The Old Gods have forgotten a lot. They even forgot about the Void until we showed them Heaven.

The Seven must have killed just enough Weirwoods to deeply damage them.
@DragonParadox, did they forget about the Void? Or did they simply then realize that the Void wasn't just a deeper part of the Others, but was a separate thing that could exist elsewhere completely separated from the Others?

Because if we're running with the "Old Gods seem geographically limited in influence and information-gathering", then it is very likely they never actually let the Bloodstone Emperor (who is too far east, and arguably before their time).

Edit: or perhaps unconfirmed, irrelevant information isn't shared to all. The Of are basically a group mindscape, after all. Perhaps most of them don't know, but some do (which would explain why Bloodraven has to search for information for several days : he's digging through the mental haystack!).
 
Last edited:
@DragonParadox, did they forget about the Void? Or did they simply then realize that the Void wasn't just a deeper part of the Others, but was a separate thing that could exist elsewhere completely separated from the Others?

Because if we're running with the "Old Gods seem geographically limited in influence and information-gathering", then it is very likely they never actually let the Bloodstone Emperor (who is too far east, and arguably before their time).

Edit: or perhaps unconfirmed, irrelevant information isn't shared to all. The Of are basically a group mindscape, after all. Perhaps most of them don't know, but some do (which would explain why Bloodraven has to search for information for several days : he's digging through the mental haystack!).
They also supposedly didn't know anything whatsoever about dragons when we met Bloodraven that first time, in spite of the fact that at a minimum they had to have had dealings with both Green Dragons and White Dragons before the Sundering (example: Felzath Farseer, the Ancient Green Dragon who had a bargain with the Old Gods).

It honestly is like waking a groggy old man up from his sleep and him slowly remembering things bit by bit.
 
[X] Azel

We might consider though that mammoths aren't made for warmer climates. I guess magic can help them out, though, so it shouldn't be a big issue if they choose to migrate to our realm.
 
@DragonParadox, did they forget about the Void? Or did they simply then realize that the Void wasn't just a deeper part of the Others, but was a separate thing that could exist elsewhere completely separated from the Others?

Because if we're running with the "Old Gods seem geographically limited in influence and information-gathering", then it is very likely they never actually let the Bloodstone Emperor (who is too far east, and arguably before their time).

Edit: or perhaps unconfirmed, irrelevant information isn't shared to all. The Of are basically a group mindscape, after all. Perhaps most of them don't know, but some do (which would explain why Bloodraven has to search for information for several days : he's digging through the mental haystack!).

For the Old Gods knowing something isn't as simple as for non-gestalt entities. They were always aware of the Void in the deepest depths of their beings, but seeing its mark writ in the skies over the broken mountains of heaven made that knowledge burst forth into the rest of the mindscape like a flash flood from some half forgotten crevice.
 
so for the old gods the problem is like searching through a library which has not been indexed properly, you have to go through the library untill you find it with some subjects having more books dedicated to it than others.
 
For the Old Gods knowing something isn't as simple as for non-gestalt entities. They were always aware of the Void in the deepest depths of their beings, but seeing its mark writ in the skies over the broken mountains of heaven made that knowledge burst forth into the rest of the mindscape like a flash flood from some half forgotten crevice.
Sounds like they'd benefit from minions within the greendream to help organize their memories.
 
Technically yes, in practice these spirits can be rather touchy about things that touch their minds, between old scars suspicions and memories willfully forgotten the Old Gods would reject the notion outright.
It was more of an idle thought than a serious suggestion. At the moment at least we can just rely on Bloodraven if we need specific lore.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM, finished with 34 posts and 10 votes.
 
It was more of an idle thought than a serious suggestion. At the moment at least we can just rely on Bloodraven if we need specific lore.
Maybe we should invent a Green Dream Internet service so the OG can use Dragonpedia to search through their old forgotten memories.

OG Component Spiritual Entity #347,927: "So it's a series of pipes and tubes that..."

Lya: :jackiechan:
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM, finished with 34 posts and 10 votes.
 
Part MMMCDLXXXVI: Wrestling with the Question
Wrestling with the Question

Tenth Day of the First Month 294 AC

"A foe of winter I named myself, a foe of winter I am in deed as much as word," you reply. "I have brought you these gifts that they might aid you against the coming night even should you refuse my offer, but which will be useful even if you accept. They can strike without warning..." You trail off into a sigh recalling Thennhold. "I do not ask you to be warriors but offer shelter against the coming cold."

For a long moment there is silence between you, though the night all around is filled with raucous laughter and even giant song, deep and filled with sudden stops and unexpected starts, like their names. Then Mag Mar speaks. "Your words taste fine, smell strange. What should we do in your land if not fight?"

"What you do now only with better tools and friendly folk to trade with," you reply at once. It would be more than it's worth to transport the mammoth herds alongside their masters, but you can certainly birth more in the flesh forge, ones adapted to warmer climes perhaps. While you certainly do not lack for empty land most of it is considerably warmer than the Far North.

The giant shifts slightly stroking, his beard in thought. "What you get out of it?"

"Mammoth milk for trade, wool, meat when you slaughter some beasts from your herds." When it is clear that alone will not convince you add. "A lack of wights. Your people are mighty in life Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg, mighter still would they be in death, untiring weapons of ruin in Their hands."

At that Mag Mar nods slowly, then glances at Dany distracted as though he had only just noticed her. To be fair is is rather small from the giant's great height and her silver hair blends with the carpet of snow between the stones. "Why you bring young one here?"

"Because I'm a lot bigger in magic than flesh," your sister replies with a challenging smile.

"Show," he says. He looks somewhat bewildered when Dany takes his hand, well the smallest finger upon his right hand at least, though when golden healing light suffuses him ,taking away the aches and pains of a hard lived lifetime, the expression turns to wonder. "Good magic."

Turning to his folk the elder giant shouts: "Listen here you lot. We don't need to risk the Crows' Wall. The dragon-man says we can go to his lands! Live like we've always lived only with better neighbors. Maybe we start growing again like the squirrel folk!"

How had he known that? you wonder. You had never told the giants that the Singers are growing again, only that they now dwell in your lands.

Alas you do not have long to ponder the matter. One of the younger giants perhaps a head taller than Mag Mar and covered in hair the color of fresh hay rises to his feet, throwing a giant sized mug hard enough that it cracks stone where it strikes the wall. "You go have weak knees old one, go to kneel if you want, I won't! Why should I cower behind him..." one long fingered hand points at you. "Says he's a dragon but..."

You close your eyes and will yourself to transform, flesh bubbling and growing... familiar as breathing. When you open them again you are looking down on the belligerent giant by about six feet. "If it is my stature that is the problem that can be changed," you point out calmly.

Something about your words seems to strike many of the admittedly inebriated giants as terribly amusing. You count more than half a dozen of them bent over laughing, not counting the ones that sink back into their seats with earth-shaking thumps.

"Magnar of Magnars you said you were." the giant who still had not introduced himself replies through gritted teeth. "So who are these Magnars then, who are we to kneel to? Men who'll fear us and want to use us when they don't try to drive us off! You want Grum Nar Wun Woh Tum to kneel then you get all those little ones here to wrestle me!"

Let it not be said that drunk giants can't be cunning. Looking around the gathering you see that many of the other giants are nodding along now. Having never seen a gathering of men larger than a Free Folk tribe it makes sense to them and trying to explain the rule of law and why they should listen to even those who do not prove themselves personally stronger or wiser than them would not be easy.

What do you reply?

[] Try to explain the concept of law and how it benefits them
-[] Write in

[] Try to explain the concept of fealty and how authority is devolved
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: Grum Nar actually made his wisdom save not to try to wrestle the Huge Half-Dragon Viserys, which given his wisdom was not actually guaranteed. Now you guys have to explain complex social concepts to the assembled giants.
 
Last edited:
Question, but were we actually trying to make them vassals, or just get them out of the north? Because they're generally assuming we want them to kneel, but if we said they didn't have to it might fixthe problem.
 
@DragonParadox, they understand the concept of a King Beyond the Wall, right? They've seen more than a few of those.

Also, do they really not understand laws? The concepts of guest right and parlay at the very least are ancient, basically sacred. If they understand that we can build on it.
 
Turning to his folk the elder giant shouts: "Listen here you lot. We don't need to risk the Crows' Wall. The dragon-man says we can go to his lands! Live like we've always lived only with better neighbors maybe we start growing again like the squirrel folk!"

How had he known that? you wonder. You had never told the giants that the Singers are growing again only that they now dwell in your lands.
@DragonParadox, what's going on here? On the surface the giants are but a shadow of their former glory, yet there are continuous hints that something from their elder days is awakening.
 
@DragonParadox, they understand the concept of a King Beyond the Wall, right? They've seen more than a few of those.

Also, do they really not understand laws? The concepts of guest right and parlay at the very least are ancient, basically sacred. If they understand that we can build on it.

The King Beyond the Wall is the person who has gained their respect personally and is therefore to be followed. That does not mean you have to listen to his underlings in their perspective unless they too have proven themselves.

Guest right and parlay are sacred strictures and Viserys is not currently claiming to be a god.
 
The King Beyond the Wall is the person who has gained their respect personally and is therefore to be followed. That does not mean you have to listen to his underlings in their perspective unless they too have proven themselves.

Guest right and parlay are sacred strictures and Viserys is not currently claiming to be a god.
Okay, that's a bit tricky. We're basically explaining civilization, then. And that's more than a little awkward considering this is stuff they were doing before dragons even existed, which they've apparently forgotten through unknown means.

We could start small. A magnar ruling a few thousand ion his own is doable. But tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? You need underlings who rule in your name, who will be obeyed as such, or nothing gets done. The realms to the south are too large for every underling to need to prove themselves, though that said the incompetent shouldn't last long.

Regardless, the citizens, if they chose to become that, are universally protected by the law. This prevents any underlings from potentially abusing their power against the giants, and makes it so that the giants can appeal to us if any wrongs have been committed.

That's a barebones explanation, but they should be able to grasp it. I hope.
 
[X] Well, there's currently no one more knowledgeable in law nor more skilled at parring down words than Viserys.
-[X] Compose a series of increasingly more complex (upward from the most simplistic at its core) logical exercises (described as stories/tales) that explain why rule of law is to the benefit of even the mighty, where might alone means absolutely nothing in a world where you cannot strike your foe down with force of arms, or your foe has built tools which can lay waste to your peoples sight unseen.
-[X] For example, a disease spreads through a tribe, one their lone medicine man or shaman is not capable of combating, but their neighbors have a group of healers sworn to the local lord who in turn is sworn to the king, and the king repeats the practice throughout his lands and enforces laws to keep disease from sprouting by citing precedent to keep even the strongest of his vassals from grumbling because similar precedents have gained them much in the past.
-[X] To be honest, the goal would be to state that both laws and the feudal contract aren't a zero-sum game, and your realm is built up more around chains of bureaus answering to people who traditionally do not command respect through being martial leaders, yet despite that are the best people for the job and help ensure that society runs smoothly, that there is always food on the table in lean times, buildings are always in good repair and no one does something to spread misfortune, something a more tribal society can acknowledge as only by all leaders abiding by a rule do they hold any value. Yet those same people administering the law derive authority through those most capable of upholding them as there is a mutual benefit to doing so.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top