A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- United States
Unlike Dayne's greatest fears, the Faith of the Seven isn't going to be dismantled. It'll still be intact.
It's just never going to be in charge as far as the Imperium is concerned. It'll have all the rights and responsibilities of any approved religion, but it will never dictate magical policy. Or any policy, really. We're not about to bow to the Seven.
It's just never going to be in charge as far as the Imperium is concerned. It'll have all the rights and responsibilities of any approved religion, but it will never dictate magical policy. Or any policy, really. We're not about to bow to the Seven.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] Bluntly ask him why he thinks that the faith who governs mages should be that of the Seven. He has just seen the work of other gods themselves, so why them and not the Old Gods? Or Rh'llor? Or the goddess of the Moonsingers?
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
- Location
- ?????????
[X] Bluntly ask him why he thinks that the faith who governs mages should be that of the Seven. He has just seen the work of other gods themselves, so why them and not the Old Gods? Or Rh'llor? Or the goddess of the Moonsingers?
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
A religion just like any other. Although we do have our favourites.
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
A religion just like any other. Although we do have our favourites.
- Location
- France
[X] Plan Gods are fickle
-[X] "Gods are formed of belief, shaped by the prayers of men. The mage-empires of Earth and Air do not count Gods the pillar of their laws, for Gods can be shaped and twisted both by mighty sorcerers and the plots of archdevils beguiling the faithful. A mortal ruler can at least be counted free of mind and will, while a God is always yoked to the prayers of the masses - and the masses can be led at need".
-[X] "In any case, asking the mages of the east to bow before the priests of a minor western faith will breed resentment and war. The Red Priests are the largest faith in this world - why should they be made inferior to the Seven? The Old Gods fight to save mankind from extinction - why should their faithful be made to heed the words of tree-burners? How can I justify one faith standing above another, when both Gods are proven to exist and can speak to me at need?"
Another approach.
-[X] "Gods are formed of belief, shaped by the prayers of men. The mage-empires of Earth and Air do not count Gods the pillar of their laws, for Gods can be shaped and twisted both by mighty sorcerers and the plots of archdevils beguiling the faithful. A mortal ruler can at least be counted free of mind and will, while a God is always yoked to the prayers of the masses - and the masses can be led at need".
-[X] "In any case, asking the mages of the east to bow before the priests of a minor western faith will breed resentment and war. The Red Priests are the largest faith in this world - why should they be made inferior to the Seven? The Old Gods fight to save mankind from extinction - why should their faithful be made to heed the words of tree-burners? How can I justify one faith standing above another, when both Gods are proven to exist and can speak to me at need?"
Another approach.
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- Location
- florida
Hes both correct and not.
Lets talk about the djinn, shaitan, and other societies.
Rule by and the introduction of immortals is scary, but... people have done it before.
Were also not invincible. At all. Violence amd rebellion have ended far greater empires than ours.
Lets talk about the djinn, shaitan, and other societies.
Rule by and the introduction of immortals is scary, but... people have done it before.
Were also not invincible. At all. Violence amd rebellion have ended far greater empires than ours.
- Location
- Germany
They have more of an anarchist commune going on there.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] "Lord Dayne, you propose that the Faith who should control magic is the Seven when they are the least inclined to look past the obvious or structure with any sense of rationality dictums by which mages practice. The Father's own voice upon the world under the sun claims to work justice, when instead he has made a mockery of the very concept by passing sentence upon those who have done no wrong, even by local custom to which sovereign realms abide. So far the ones who have worked the least to cooperate and protect this world among those powers not dark has been the Seven, so why instead must I trust agents of an interloper who claims me for an enemy without having met me once?"
-[X] Bluntly ask him why he thinks that the faith who governs mages should be that of the Seven. He has just seen the work of other gods themselves, so why them and not the Old Gods? Or Rh'llor? Or the goddess of the Moonsingers?
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
-[X] Bluntly ask him why he thinks that the faith who governs mages should be that of the Seven. He has just seen the work of other gods themselves, so why them and not the Old Gods? Or Rh'llor? Or the goddess of the Moonsingers?
-[X] Ask him to visit all temples in the Deep while he stays and to speak with all their priests. We will continue this talk when he has done so.
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- Location
- florida
Are Lucan flunkies still poking around SD?
- Location
- United States
The Old Gods and Yss are getting rather metaphysically fat...
On the bright side that anarchy is working in our favor. More and more tribes gather under our banner.
It might not be the best idea to present a technical argument to a man of actual faith in his gods. Dayne appears to be an idealist.
- Location
- Germany
Your first argument is kinda making a good case for a god being the ultimate form of democracy by perfectly representing the society that worships it.
However, wrong audience. We are not here to, or likely successful if we try, to make him an atheist.
- Location
- United States
Yeah, definitely the wrong audience.
The truth of the gods is something to reveal to the faithless or the cynics, like Arianne. For a person of actual faith either they'll stick to their views because they don't want the truth to be real, or they'll lose faith and go on a bit of an unfortunate spiral.
It probably isn't pleasant to learn the gods you held faith in are shaped by mortal whim, and that heretics can seriously harm them if given enough momentum.
- Location
- United States
Him meeting Yss and Zathir is going to be very interesting. I wish it wasn't basically cheating to see that visit to the Capital City from Dayne's POV, lol.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
I just want to make a point that so far the Seven has actively obstructed, hindered or harmed the cause of getting mages to willingly come forward and practice their magic for the good of all, they have done no more than create fear and distrust among their number and even the regular Lords and Ladies of the land because they are running around claiming authority that they have not been granted unilaterally.
- Location
- ?????????
Even if my feelings towards the faith wasn't soured by everything that has happened. I would still be wary of handing them the reigns to this power. Using history as a source I know the power religion had over the masses. The Catholic Church is a good example of this power. Every scholar was taught by them for a time. They would have sway over the teachings of every mage on the continent and that isn't a power I trust with anyone but us.
- Location
- Germany
Validity of the point aside, do you think he will really waver or just clam up and try to defend their actions? He already acknowledged problems within the church, but also that those are being solved. At the same time he can easily point to Tywin's shenanigans and Roberts track record of doing basically fuck-all in regards to mages as examples for why strong moral guidance is necessary and that the Faith stepped up to fill a void left by the Usurper.
My angle is not to convince him the the Seven are bad. That's unlikely to succeed and would actually devalue him, since we want him to keep the more faithful Lords in Dorne in line.
What I want is for him to acknowledge that the teachings and faiths of others gods are equally worthy and equally capable of giving the guidance he wants to give, at which point we can shoot down the idea by pointing out that this means the Faiths would have to fight over who would get to control all mages. Or, you know, the secular government stepping in and preventing the faiths from being shitwaffles at each other for the sake of money and prestige.
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
To be perfectly honest I agree with the guy and personally find the idea of an immortal Emperor boring as heck.
Seems better and less stagnation driven to pass down leadership willingly after some time in general and than retire to do something else like explore the infinite planes of something.
Seems better and less stagnation driven to pass down leadership willingly after some time in general and than retire to do something else like explore the infinite planes of something.
- Location
- United States
That too the problem of one religion exerting power over multiple others.
Westeros will not be independent, it will be a province in the Imperium, and with that the Seven join the ranks of multiple other gods who service the citizens. One religion lording its values over the others would never be well received.
There's a reason this particular rule has to be secular. We can ally with various gods and faiths, sure, but they can't be allowed to rule.
We're pretty firmly on the path of Immortal Mythic Dragon Sorcerer Emperor, dude. At this stage that's not changing. It's the goal of the majority of us here, and there have been multiple character moments solidifying this as a goal IC. Hell, Viserys' entire Mythic Path revolves around this.
- Location
- E-Girl Deseret
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Azel
Yeah, I think pointing out that other gods are real and deserve a secular government that will protect them to is a better argument than anything else. Point out that R'hllorism is the majority or at least plurality faith in your realm as of now, but you really can't be accused of favoring or disfavoring it (as far as most people know). The Seven won't be supreme in your realm, but neither will they be eradicated (as much as the Old Gods want to).
Yeah, I think pointing out that other gods are real and deserve a secular government that will protect them to is a better argument than anything else. Point out that R'hllorism is the majority or at least plurality faith in your realm as of now, but you really can't be accused of favoring or disfavoring it (as far as most people know). The Seven won't be supreme in your realm, but neither will they be eradicated (as much as the Old Gods want to).
- Location
- Reno Nv
[X] Azel
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Azel
[X] Azel