A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
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- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- France
Hey, my plan has a whole pile of abstraction in there!
There is plenty of abstraction in there actually, though thinking about it maybe I should have just put in [] Introduce a progressive tax? Y/N. On the other hand that would be rather unfair of me since I do not handle the finer points of the economy myself, so I'm passing on handling them to you guys when you do the kingdoms sheets. I think the best we can do is just work though this quickly to get to the rest of the turn.
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OK since the difference between the winning plans is so small and my time writing today is limited I'm going to start witting and and just leave off the distinctions until it's settled.
Voting is not closed yet.
Voting is not closed yet.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
- Location
- ...Somewhere
Hey, I'm not saying it's bad-
Just that I don't get it
Too accurate...
- Location
- France
To be honest from an ideological point of view I sort of hate my plan (it's far too tolerant of D&D-style extreme wealth inequality! IRL I would be unhappy!) but in practice it fixes our in-setting issues, it reduces taxes on the poor and removes old feudal taxation that disincentivized trade and technological progress, and it's IC for Viserys.
Which is why I'm voting for it.
It's also so close to Goldfish's plan that there's a good chance he'll just vote for me and call it a day
Which is why I'm voting for it.
It's also so close to Goldfish's plan that there's a good chance he'll just vote for me and call it a day
To be honest from an ideological point of view I sort of hate my plan (it's far too tolerant of D&D-style extreme wealth inequality! IRL I would be unhappy!) but in practice it fixes our in-setting issues, it reduces taxes on the poor and removes old feudal taxation that disincentivized trade and technological progress, and it's IC for Viserys.
Which is why I'm voting for it.
It's also so close to Goldfish's plan that there's a good chance he'll just vote for me and call it a day
For what it's worth I greatly appreciate it when this kind of thinking goes into a plan. It's not that I think our RL oppinions should never inform voting in quests that's impossible, but I like it when IC reasoning takes primacy and I think it makes for better storytelling.
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] TalonofAnathrax
By Jove I think it might be over 😝
By Jove I think it might be over 😝
I don't know when it was, but I'm sure you were involved.
[X] TalonofAnathrax
- Location
- France
@egoo, you asked how we could help with the "magitech crushing the old economy" issue.
There are four paths forwards here, IMO :
There are four paths forwards here, IMO :
- Forbid it outright, and go full protectionist. I dislike this idea for ideological reasons, and I suspect everyone else will too. Yay for technological progress and cheaper consumer goods! More trade! Especially in a setting where global warming isn't an issue!
- Allow magitech, help it along and go full post-scarcity total welfare state. I'm not saying "end work", but when almost everything is produced with a lot of magic, it's only a small step to "universal basic income" and "just make absolutely everything with magic". Unlikely to work out, currently unfeasible, but a nice long-term goal. Sadly I think @DragonParadox has vetoed actual post-scarcity and magic items producing magic items, so this isn't a good way forwards either.
- Just ignore the problem, tank the economic crisis, and trust in the Invisible Hand to fix things. This feels wildly OOC for Viserys, who would take pity on the millions of starving peasants who'll lose their manufacturing and resource extraction jobs as magitech makes them obsolete.
Panic.Try to shift the population towards jobs that magitech can't replace yet. Things that need people and creativity, things that require skilled hands or skilled thinkers, services that require a "human touch" (even if it may be a magic-enhanced one)... Education, public information (to citizens but also local Lords), and maybe economic stimulus and targeted infrastructure projects could help with this. We're facing a crisis as severe as deindustrialisation was in Western countries, and IRL there wasn't a clear and obvious answer to that. Nevertheless, having a quick general policy vote in a few months so Viserys can establish his general intentions would be good. Nothing detailed, no numbers, but general intentions and acknowledgment of the incoming crisis and ways to mitigate it and bounce back higher than we were before.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] TalonofAnathrax
*headache*
Ugh, all of these terms and numbers are making me dizzy. Damnit, why are y'all so good at this... this... govermential... thing.
I feel wholly inadequate right now. The only thing I'm good at is making fight scenes. And here y'all are, making tax rearrangements at a night's turn!
*headache*
Ugh, all of these terms and numbers are making me dizzy. Damnit, why are y'all so good at this... this... govermential... thing.
I feel wholly inadequate right now. The only thing I'm good at is making fight scenes. And here y'all are, making tax rearrangements at a night's turn!
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egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Fighting taxes is just another battle, albeit one without end.
...You should try writing an epic about Eldritch Taxes trying to consume all there is?
Would have no good ending, but eh, few epics do.
Not really, I asked "how would it crush our economy again?", and continued with "is this about Hardened equipment not breaking again?".
I'm lacking the context, because I don't get how you see what destroying what.
Edit: nap time.
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- Location
- USA
Welp, it's taken a little over 4 months, but I've finally broke the 10,000 page mark. Only 1/3 left of the thread to catch up on.
Jack vile Ripper
The swellest guy in Creation.
- Location
- Indonesia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...You should try writing an epic about Eldritch Taxes trying to consume all there is?
Would have no good ending, but eh, few epics do.
*shudders*
Sadly, I'm not that particularly savvy about the 'economic lingo' so I'm incapable of making metaphors for said fight.
...what I can do (of the moment) is making something action-y... and weird.
Hmm...
@egoo, I'll be back. Gonna write something. But first, I'm gonna need a VERY spicy Samyang Instant Noodle, a glass of milk, a giant icecube, and a new pair of breeches.
- Location
- France
In the current economy, there are many unskilled jobs doing tasks that can be economically automated by magic. Why pay for a whole mining town when you could rent Titan's Tools? Why make stuff when you can Harden it and have it last forever? Why have forges when you can replicate Lya's setup? Etc.
Furthermore, this magitech is all very good for business owners who can afford to make the initial investment. So big conglomerates (ex: Lys) will be able to go magitech and suddenly produce a ton of goods that they can sell for cheap, thereby removing the competition from the market. Big lawyer firms can buy magic items of VoTD and suddenly all their employees have +10 to everything, letting them crush smaller firms who can't afford the magic item. So this is industrialisation with a helping of extra monopolies unless we act to prevent that
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- Location
- United States
@TalonofAnathrax your current proposal's got my full support.
I think the biggest thing we can do to help people adjust to the shifting economy is offering a LOT of free training in new jobs, making it and the information about what skills lead to what jobs and what pay easily accessible (something like this would be a very useful MirrorVision program), give people favorable loans for starting businesses in new industries (Iron Bank will definitely help with this, they love a booming economy) kind of like those microloan programs IRL, etc.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
@TalonofAnathrax, I don't have much problem with the new version of your plan, except for the 10% property tax on the very richest. That's blatantly excessive and might as well be called the Dragon Rebellion Tax. It's one thing to tax their legitimate income, but if you try to take 10% of a Dragon's hoard on an annual basis, to quote @Abhishek M, you're going to end up with a dead Dragon, and it might not be the Dragon you want dead. You'll also end up with dead Tax Collectors, government officials, etc.
Even 5% is high, but I can settle for that if necessary.
Even 5% is high, but I can settle for that if necessary.
- Location
- France
Gotta make sure your investments have at least 11% yearly return, then. Difficult but not impossible. Or spend it on services, give it to your kids, etc.
Although you are indeed correct that these solutions don't work on Dragons who are unwilling to invest parts of their hoards... There is currently no Dragon in the Empire with a hoard anywhere near that big, though. Still a long-term issue. :/
This is a problem because the whole point of the law is to cap the wealth concentration of immortals, you see.
What if there was had a "hoard exemption" or "heirloom exemption"? Wealth that isn't invested, isn't generating revenue, isn't used to generate revenue, isn't being used and isn't planned to be sold can be non-taxable once you have a certain amount of it? It's a massive loophole, but it would neatly resolve the Dragon problem.
This would also incentivize people to craft magic items (because as long as you aren't using them they could count as a hoard), which is nice on a structural level.
And maybe the hoard exemption could only apply to things that need to hoard wealth, like Dragons.
EDIT : And if you classify something as a hoard and then sell it outside of a direct national crisis (invasion, etc), you're retroactively taxed 5 years all at once and there's an audit performed on your stuff.
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Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
This is random but I recently got into Critical Role and what with making their own animated series I can't help but wonder what can our actors pull off for mirror shows using illusion magic.
@DragonParadox do you think that a proper team of illusionists could pull off something like this for a mirror show?
@DragonParadox do you think that a proper team of illusionists could pull off something like this for a mirror show?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
No, let's not introduce our first tax loophole before the laws are even in place. You're making too many assumptions and projecting some of your Frenchness onto this issue. Not all Dragons are going to want to heavily invest in earning treasure the non-traditional way (non-traditional based on what their eons old instincts and the Dragon Dream tell them). They also don't have a habit of turning their vast accumulated wealth toward controlling large extraplanar empires like we fear happening with quasi-immortal Humans. They just like to look at it, catalog it, and sleep on it.
5% is already really high, dude. I would rather have Dragons living within the Imperium as content citizens instead of choosing to live beyond the fringes so that we don't steal their hoards. That's how you end up with Dragons who decide your nation is a suitable candidate for plundering.
EDIT: We might not have many Dragon citizens at the moment, but I would like that to change in the future.
- Location
- Germany
I like that idea.
It protects the Dragon's natural need to sleep on a vast hoard of treasures, as seen by Amrelath's unwillingness to invest even in certainly profitable endevours while his hoard was yet too small to be "enough" for him.
Ultimatly a certain base-stock of treasure will be simply removed from the economy in total and could even be minted again without any risk of inflation, so the hoard in itself does not harm our economy at all.
[X] TalonOfAnathrax