Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

SITB said:

Possibly, but most of those old vampires aren't around here I think?

Also, the Grand Theologian managed to unmake Mannfred zombie army with 0 training; so either Vlad's direct son doesn't know about the second secret, or it can't be defended against, either means that the secrets are very well guarded.

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Given that Manfred is a bit if a nerd, spent about a century looking for ancient Nehekaran lore in Nehekara, is considered one of the most poverful vampire necromancers and was able to to raise an undead host to threaten the Empire, I believe it is a safe bet that he knew the Secrets of Dhar.

So I suspect that it's the "can't be defended against" case.

Heretek said:

No, I'm going to vote not to purchase it because having a weapon you don't know how to use and do not intend to learn how to use is stupid.

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Because there are more important things now doesn't mean it won't clear up eventually.

It's a tremendously valuable tool.

Briefvoice said:

No.

What makes me pick it is the focus on "competent leaders". Taking out the brightest and most organized is probably worth it even if it places them on higher alert. Leadership is that important.

If Belegar said different, well, sometimes being a wizard means you know your own capabilities better than the temporal leaders you serve and you do what needs to be done.

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Also the in fighting this will cause from suddenly having a power vacuum is worth a lot. why risk getting killed by the enemy when you can get the enemy to kill each other.

TotallyNotEvil said:

Because there are more important things now doesn't mean it won't clear up eventually.

It's a tremendously valuable tool.

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If, if, it clears up we can revisit the issue. Until and unless that happens there's no point in buying it.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike plans involving using Johann as a scout against Clan Moulder. This isn't going to work; we saw what his investigative style is, and it involves a lot of punching and breaking things. I don't think it will generate the strategic insights we want.

Here's an alternate idea, which prioritizes gaining actionable intel across the board.

[ ] Plan Acquire Intel Disregard Sleeping
-[ ] [COIN] Night Prowler
-[ ] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies.
-[ ] [JOHANN] Allow Johann to study the Ratling Gun.
-[ ] [EIC] Have those supplying the Stirland Army keep you informed of events in the Sylvanian Campaign.
-[ ] [FREE] Hire an open-minded Loremaster from a Young Hold to teach the We.
-[ ] Ask an acquaintance to train you in a skill: specify who and what.
--[ ] Gunnar, Greatsword
-[ ] Sylvania: Investigate the attempts on Roswita's life, and see if you can determine the mechanisms, spells, and controls that make it possible.
-[ ] Sylvania: Investigate Alkharad for yourself, and if a good opportunity arises, take it.
-[ ] Karagril: Carefully map as much of the mountain as you can.
-[ ] Clan Moulder are set up under Karagril. Investigate.
-[ ] [OVERWORK] Establish a weekly meeting for the various Journeymanlings and Ducklings that you've accumulated, so you can keep tabs on what they're up to and assist and intervene as necessary.
-[ ] [SERENITY] Write a paper on the Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.
-[ ] [FREE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.

Between three and four actions that can benefit from Night Prowler. Investigating all the vampires is less useful without Burning Vengeance, so instead prioritizing getting more info on Alkharad with the goal of fucking him up this turn if possible. Incorporates @thepsyborg's points about Ratling Gun and the worship of Only Gork. Dropping "assassinate leadership" hurts, but I want to ensure that we take advantage of our unique capabilities to sneak into places like no other plan I've seen thus far; we are going to come back from this turn with *all* the recon data for Karagril, the better to give dwarf leadership a full set of data from which to work with.

CrimsonOddball said:

Nagash is the ultimate source of all the knowledge of Necromancy, he created it
This includes the knowledge that eventually ended up in the Liber Mortis, of course his method is leagues ahead of the common petty necromancers technique when it comes to animating the dead, it's probably far more complicated than the techniques within the Liber Mortis

If necromancy involves forming a Dhar construct that binds a bit of soul stuff/life essence or what have you then what I mean to say is that most basic necromancers don't elegantly weave Dhar upon itself to build the necessary structure, they don't know how to
Rather they grab onto Dhar and haphazardly mold it into the necessary form required
Lot less technique and more a matter of willpower, also a lot less effective and far more risky

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Humans apparently don't have the mental capacity to control Dhar with pure willpower, that's an elf exclusive technique, in the same way as High Magic is. It's one of the reasons why Nagash had to invent the Shyish tongs, because humans can't just directly use Dhar (the magical substance) in the way the elven sorceress who was his prisoner could. Humans have to use the trick that is his Shyish tongues technique to substitute for the Willpower they lack.

I think according to Libris Necris raising the dead also requires a relatively sophisticated understanding of the nature of the soul, so you can perform the right binding of soul fragment to corpse to produce the right result. Necromancy apparently is based on the Nehekharan research into the nature of the soul, which is apparently more sophisticated/detailed that the one taught by the Colleges of Magic, which is three part rather than the five parts Necromancy teaches how to manipulate.

The point remains that if reanimating the dead was so easy, someone before Nagash would have discovered it, and Nagash wouldn't have had to do so much work to do it, and he wouldn't have had to base his spells on modified Ushabti animation rituals. Someone else would have just done it accidentally beforehand, in a culture as death focused as Nehekhara was, and it wouldn't have been an unprecedented blasphemy.

Briefvoice said:

If Belegar said different, well, sometimes being a wizard means you know your own capabilities better than the temporal leaders you serve and you do what needs to be done.

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Belegar did't say different. He warned Dreng, not Mathilde, and as pointed out, Dreng's Rangers can't change their appearance, erase memories, or turn invisible and insubstantial in shadow.

Kornet said:

Given that Manfred is a bit if a nerd, spent about a century looking for ancient Nehekaran lore in Nehekara, is considered one of the most poverful vampire necromancers and was able to to raise an undead host to threaten the Empire, I believe it is a safe bet that he knew the Secrets of Dhar.

So I suspect that it's the "can't be defended against" case.

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Yeesh, if true it means that the vampiric house of cards is even worse since any ancient/knowledgeable vampire can dunk on other vampires and is in effective MAD situation with other vampires that know the second secret.

Literally their own worst enemies.

I'm noticing a fair number of plans are completely ignoring the Radio Free Wolf option. Is there a particular reason?

Walliseatscheese said:

The point of the Rifle is literally because it signficantly out ranges Shadow Daggers and other options, not as a replacement for them within those ranges.

There are targets outside of our ability to sneak up to them. A flying target for instance. Otherwise, playing the escort game was offered before and it did not pass go.

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Friend, get the logic, I do. I'm saying when I take the time to think about and weigh the Pros and Cons, I have come to the conclusion that between shadow daggers and rifles, the extra range isn't worth the time sink. as Shadow Dagger will still give us a big increase in range and power if not as much with less time sink. e.g I think its more effective time management.

later, I might look at it again and decide that its time for more range.

Live by the action crunch, die by the action crunch.

ctulhuslp said:

> 25 favour runesword
> just the basics

> most magic-neutral tower Mathilde has ever seen in her life
> the cheapest

sure

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I count the sword among the occasional splurge from enchanted items, and i desperately needed something for the third panel so housing it is.
It is a joke, don't look too deeply into it.

It's been 24 hours since the update, so here is the final tally for the purchasing part of the vote. BoneyM, when you get a chance, could you threadmark this post temporarily? That way we can tally forward from here for the plan voting part of the turn and not deal with the purchases. (Though I guess that if everyone who voted for a purchase option votes again for an action plan, it won't matter because their old votes will be overwritten. Still, it's just tidier.) EDIT: Thanks, @Redshirt Army!

Winners:
[X] [RUNE] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase.
[X] Tower of Serenity - Perfect temperature, perfect level of background noise, perfect conditions to get those bloody papers written. Or for someone else to do it for you. It even has a rune to keep your drink warm. Every turn, writing or dictating 1 paper costs no actions. 300gc, 3 College favours, 1 Dwarf favour.
[X] [LIBRARY] Plan To Kill

Library plan, for reference:
Imperial Undead - Extensive (50g)
Imperial Vampires - Extensive (100g)
Imperial Necromancy - Extensive (100g)
Bretonnian Undead - Extensive (100g)
Bretonnian Vampires - Extensive (100g)
Dwarf Vampires - Extensive (100g)
Bretonnian Greenskins - Extensive (100g)
Bright Magic - Extensive (100g)
Death Magic - Extensive (100g)
Celestial Magic - Extensive (100g)

Alratan said:

They should be able to tell at a glance that it's pure Aqshy, so it's not something that a skaven has cast. Skaven are not big fans of outside interference.



If necromancy is that easy, why did Nagash find it so hard? Why did it take thousands of years and a genius using foreign magical secrets before any Nehekhara discovered it, given their fixation on re-animating the dead, rather than some random untrained magic user stumbling over it after a couple of years?

The story of the history of Necromancy in Warhammer is meant to be the towering achievement and terrible legacy of one of if not the greatest magic user humanity has ever produced who twisted his genius to evil ends, not something any random untrained idiot could spontaneously reinvent in an afternoon.

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Petty necromancers are a thing, they aren't nearly as dangerous or effective but they exist
There's even Mathilde's thoughts while considering the Liber Mortis, how the knowledge within could take those same petty necromancers and turn them into true threats
So they can't all have that knowledge, of how to weave Dhar into sophisticated constructs or handle it by grasping with another Wind
Nagash took so long to build something so effective precisely because he wasn't some harebrained dime a dozen sorcerer who just grabbed onto Dhar and tried to fill the gaps of knowledge in how to use it by bruteforcing the issue
He's the source of all the information of how true necromancy is properly done

24 hours have passed.

Edit: Please note the latest version of my plan is:

[X] Plan Redshirt v6

The plan below is outdated, but remains for archival purposes.

---

[x] Plan Redshirt v5
-[x] [COIN] Night Prowler
-[x] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies.
-[x] [JOHANN] Ask Johann to do some preliminary scouting of Clan Moulder's position and their lines under Karagril.
-[x] [EIC] Have those supplying the Stirland Army keep you informed of events in the Sylvanian Campaign.
-[x] [FREE] Hire an open-minded Loremaster from a Young Hold to teach the We.
-[x] Ask an acquaintance to train you in a skill: specify who and what.
--[x] Gunnar, Greatsword
-[x] Sylvania: Investigate all the Vampires as efficiently as possible, seeking only information, not opportunities.
-[x] Sylvania: Investigate Alkharad for yourself, and if a good opportunity arises, take it.
-[x] Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task: specify who and how.
--[x] Assist Dreng by providing him a detailed map of as much of Karagril as possible.
-[x] Karagril: Assassinate competent leaders.
-[x] [OVERWORK] Establish a weekly meeting for the various Journeymanlings and Ducklings that you've accumulated, so you can keep tabs on what they're up to and assist and intervene as necessary.
-[x] [SERENITY] Write a paper on Mathilde's MAP.
-[x] [FREE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.

Links to where I discuss the plan:

If were not trained in pistols what did we shoot the goblin leader with???

[x] Plan Redshirt v5

I still disdain the nightprowler for the protector, but you got pretty much everything else aces. Well done sir.

[X] Plan Perfectly Balanced.
-[X][Max] Have Maximilian attempt to write a paper (choose which from 'Publish or Perish')
--[X] Write a paper on the Waaagh energy and magic witnessed during the Expedition.
-[X][Johann] Previous Task: Have Johann perform or assist with spider autopsies.
-[X][EIC] Have those supplying the Stirland Army keep you informed of events in the Sylvanian Campaign.
-[X] Ask an acquaintance to train you in a skill: Gunnar and Greatsword
-[X] Karagril: Carefully map as much of the mountain as you can.
-[X] Karagril: Sabotage weapons, equipment, and food.
-[X] Sylvania: Investigate the attempts on Roswita's life, and see if you can determine the mechanisms, spells, and controls that make it possible.
-[X] Sylvania: Investigate Alkharad for yourself, and if a good opportunity arises, take it.
-[X][Overwork] Establish a weekly meeting for the various Journeymanlings and Ducklings that you've accumulated, so you can keep tabs on what they're up to and assist and intervene as necessary.
-[X][Penthouse] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.
-[X][Coin] The Night Prowler
-[X][FreePaper] Write a paper on Mathilde's Multidimensional Aethyric Projection.
-[X][Free] Hire an open-minded Loremaster from a Young Hold to teach the We. [does not cost an action or your money]

Right, If it is posting time.

Valarauko said:

I'm noticing a fair number of plans are completely ignoring the Radio Free Wolf option. Is there a particular reason?

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Action crunch, we'd have to drop something like great sword training or infilitration training or spell training and those probably have bigger impact in the short term. Long term our Familiar is possibly a source of actions once he's properly intelligent and able to speak. At the very least he might be able to spend time dictating papers to max.

[X] Plan Briefvoice Turn 22
-[X] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies.
-[X] [JOHANN] Allow Johann to study the Ratling Gun.
-[X] [EIC] Put policies in place that local news should be collected and sent to you (rumour mill).
-[X] [FREE] Hire an open-minded Loremaster from a Young Hold to teach the We. [does not cost an action or your money]
-[X] Karagril: Carefully map as much of the mountain as you can.
-[X] Karagril: Assassinate competent leaders.
-[X] Sylvania: Investigate the attempts on Roswita's life, and see if you can determine the mechanisms, spells, and controls that make it possible.
-[X] Sylvania: Investigate Alkharad for yourself, and if a good opportunity arises, take it.
-[X] Establish a weekly meeting for the various Journeymanlings and Ducklings that you've accumulated, so you can keep tabs on what they're up to and assist and intervene as necessary.
-[X] [FREE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.
-[X] [SERENITY FREE] Write a paper on the Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual.
-[X] [COIN] The Night Prowler


Here's my argument for the Loremaster option. It'll be a dwarf. The We are going to be working with dwarves, so someone who can educate them about the dwarven point of view and what dwarves consider ethical/unethical and valuable is maybe a good idea.

Yes, we're not getting any training done this turn, including not completing the Greatsword or infiltration turn, but... Well, we got to get "Mage Club" going or lose a half action starting next turn.

MooseHowl said:

- [ ] [Max] Have Maximilian write papers on subjects you dictate.
-- [ ] [1/2] Write a paper on your personal understanding of countering Waaagh Magic.
-- [ ] [2/2] Write a paper on Mathilde's Multidimensional Aethyric Projection.

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If you want to have Max write dictated papers, then Mathilde needs to spend an action to actually dictate them.

picklepikkl said:

The more I think about it, the more I dislike plans involving using Johann as a scout against Clan Moulder. This isn't going to work; we saw what his investigative style is, and it involves a lot of punching and breaking things. I don't think it will generate the strategic insights we want.

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That wasn't his sneaking style, it was his fighting style. Notice how in his char sheet it's mentioned that his fighting style only works because he is literally bulletproof.

He is pretty good at sneaking (see during the rest of the excursion where he teamed with Mathilde), and if she orders him to sneak but not attack he wouldn't just throw himself onto Skaven outposts.

Redshirt Army said:

24 hours have passed.

[x] Plan Redshirt v5
-[x] [COIN] Night Prowler
-[x] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies.
-[x] [JOHANN] Ask Johann to do some preliminary scouting of Clan Moulder's position and their lines under Karagril.
-[x] [EIC] Have those supplying the Stirland Army keep you informed of events in the Sylvanian Campaign.
-[x] [FREE] Hire an open-minded Loremaster from a Young Hold to teach the We.
-[x] Ask an acquaintance to train you in a skill: specify who and what.
--[x] Gunnar, Greatsword
-[x] Sylvania: Investigate all the Vampires as efficiently as possible, seeking only information, not opportunities.
-[x] Sylvania: Investigate Alkharad for yourself, and if a good opportunity arises, take it.
-[x] Spend time assisting with a fellow councillor's task: specify who and how.
--[x] Assist Dreng by providing him a detailed map of as much of Karagril as possible.
-[x] Karagril: Assassinate competent leaders.
-[x] [OVERWORK] Establish a weekly meeting for the various Journeymanlings and Ducklings that you've accumulated, so you can keep tabs on what they're up to and assist and intervene as necessary.
-[x] [SERENITY] Write a paper on Mathilde's MAP.
-[x] [FREE] Have a tower built atop Karag Nar: -100gc for 1 room, bonus to room's purpose.

Links to where I discuss the plan:

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

I think I've finalized my plan. If @BoneyM confirms that the Hammerer's and Gyrocopter won't be able to help keep Roswita alive while we're scouting, I'll create a V6 plan that switches out scouting the other vampires for keeping an eye on Alkharad's assassination attempts. [ ] Plan Redshirt...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

Alright. Here's the next iteration of my plan. [ ] Plan Redshirt v4 -[ ] [COIN] Night Prowler -[ ] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies. -[ ] [JOHANN] Allow Johann to spend all his time investigating the Skaven --[ ] Clan Moulder -[ ] [EIC] Have those...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

Alright. Here's the next iteration of my plan. [ ] Plan Redshirt v3 -[ ] [COIN] Night Prowler -[ ] [MAX] Previous Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies. -[ ] [JOHANN] Allow Johann to spend all his time investigating the Skaven --[ ] Clan Moulder -[ ] [EIC] Have those...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

I like a lot of @veekie 's reasoning, but I think Karagril is more important than Sylvania - certainly spending 3 actions on Vampires and only 1 on K8P seems dubious to me. Beyond that, overwork is bad, and I think it can be avoided. [ ] Plan Redshirt v2 -[ ] [COIN] Night Prowler -[ ] [MAX]...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

Between Karagril and Sylvania, I think Karagril is more important. Giving hope to the whole race of dwarves is just frankly a bigger deal than knocking over one moderately competent vampire. That said, it'd suck if Roswita died this turn, so my plan is to primarily focus on Karagril, but spare...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

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Boney still has not reset the poll.

Poll closed automatically after 24 hours.

I added the threadmark with my sweet Councillor powers, for ease of tallying stage 2 results.

Jyn Ryvia said:

Boney still has not reset the poll.

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Boney explicitly said that the tally closes without his intervention, this time.

[x] Plan Redshirt v5

das_slash said:

I count the sword among the occasional splurge from enchanted items, and i desperately needed something for the third panel so housing it is.
It is a joke, don't look too deeply into it.

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I mean, 25 favours is almost half of entirety of dwarf favour we've earned within the quest.
15 more being in Belt, amounting to 40 out of 55 invested into combat/enchanment.

11 of remaining 15 are not invested yet.
So we've spent all of 4/55 dwarf favours on non-combat items. Compared to 40 above.

So at least wrt favours we spend almost exclusively on combat/enchanted items, in 10:1 proportion.
Puts in perspective how titled Mathilde's investments are, doesn't it?

edit: though tbf Belt has a lot of non-combat utility too