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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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clockworkchaos said:
We have two turns before stumbling hurts us, this has already been confirmed, stop fearmongering. Throwing one point in gives us 80%. chance of finishing it, and if we fail, I'll support two points turn 6. Plenty of things are more important than food surplus, it's why we only put one point in the last turn. Without a census, or proper transportation networks, I seriously doubt the farming bonuses are going to be nearly as valuable as you or Simon claim.
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If we stumble in Turn 5, we have 1 turn to compensate.
And since Farming is DC30, putting in one point is 71%/pedant

We also have a maximum of 2 turns before shit pops off on the West Coast as California upturns the playing board in the biggest political shakeup of the last forty years. We are really going to want AP free and ready to take advantage of events, to stretch a hand out to help fleeing refugees from a potential warzone or to plug problems as they turn up, rather than be tied up trying to feed our own people.

To use an analogy, I'm asserting that we really should finish and turn in our college assignment early rather than chance waiting till the last minute.

Those other things are important too, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason access to food is explicitly written into the Constitution of the Commonwealth in this quest. People get touchy about food after decades of food insecurity.
Your own character's canon omakes explicitly characterizes it as one of the roots of the grudge between Toledo and Detroit.

And, no offence, but please dont accuse me of fearmongering.
It poisons the conversation, and implies you don't think the other debater is arguing in good faith.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

I've thought about it some more and I think it's worth the risk. I really want to keep the document safe. But if it can be used to reunite the country then it might be worth it. As far as Russia goes, we are already getting negative attention from them, a little bit more won't change the calculus much in terms of how much they can actually do about it when their empire is falling apart and they have bigger fish to fry closer to home.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.

Shouting that we have the Declaration is not going to make Alexander dislike us any more than he already does. But it will bring his attention down on us at an inconvenient time, and I don't want that. Furthermore, it also derails the peace talks. And while I don't think those are going to get us much, I do think they will get us something, and I see no reason to toss those gains away.
 
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[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
Horologer said:
Furthermore, it also derails the peace talks. And while I don't think those are going to get us much, I do think they will get us something, and I see no reason to toss those gains away.
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If reveal wins, it's happening after the peace talks, specifically so that doesn't happen.
ConfusedCanuck said:
Hey @PoptartProdigy quick question if we decide to reveal that we have the declaration of independence will it be before or after the peace talks with Victoria?
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PoptartProdigy said:
Good question! I'll say after because wow would that immediately sabotage peace talks (no I won't let you all vote to reveal the Declaration early in order to do just that. We just had this debate, peace talks won).
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Bolding mine.
 
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Timewinders said:
I've thought about it some more and I think it's worth the risk. I really want to keep the document safe. But if it can be used to reunite the country then it might be worth it. As far as Russia goes, we are already getting negative attention from them, a little bit more won't change the calculus much in terms of how much they can actually do about it when their empire is falling apart and they have bigger fish to fry closer to home.
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Uh, you seem to be assuming that hiding it now will preclude revealing it later when the GM SPECIFICALLY STATED that we'll have the option of revealing it later on.

Also, Russia's empire is NOT falling apart yet. When it goes into collapse mode is when Alex finally bites it via old age.

Its in large part about Public Relations. Alex dislikes us but we havent shouted it into the world that we seek to reunite the nation yet. That means we are lower in the to-do list than some other threats closer to home. But if we shout that out and gain legitimacy and political weight to plausibly start building up to that state we wil rapidly go up in the to-do list. And I for one am not certain we can weather Russian *and* Japanese attention well for the two turns needed for California to start revolting.

Again. We can reveal the document *later* once we've gotten our house built up with a more solid foundation and gotten counter intelligence buffed up *and* Russia is distracted by California's revolt. In fact it may be advantageous to reveal it after California revolts in order to force Alex and Japan to split their attention at a crucial point.
 
PainRack said:
Er... Poptart omake bonus policy ???
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QTesseract said:
That's a bonus, not a reroll. It gives an addition to our score to help us pass the DC.
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I thought they changed it? To wit:
PoptartProdigy said:
Hm. So, omake bonuses.

The present implementation is that every omake is worth a bonus, save where they give extra for one reason or another. Bonuses activate when a roll fails and add to the roll, whether or not that would change things.

I did it this way because I was trying to avoid a Sage situation, where a critical mass of omakes winds up meaning that I might as well not bother rolling at all. However, I've kind of gone too far in the opposite direction; we have so many omakes that I'm not confident we'd clear the stored bonuses we have now by the end of the quest. :rofl: Y'all are great, I've said once or twice. :D

So I've been trying to figure out a new system. I had an idea. Sanity check, please, everybody?

Basically: omakes pile up, and in a certain critical mass, make something happen. Like @clockworkchaos's omake series made an independent spy network happen. I could do something like that; if there's a lot of them on a topic, and all canon, they can lead to enduring, in-universe benefits materializing. Sanity checked, of course, and made setting-compliant, but that's the idea. And if there's no topical critical mass, I could hold regular votes to convert the undifferentiated critical mass into a fun bonus. Say, once you have ten in the tank, I hold a vote for if you want a) a minor surge in immigration, b) a clue in a frustrating mystery currently facing the Commonwealth, c) an entrepreneur scrapes together funding to launch a business you'd find valuable for one reason or another, or d) keep the bonuses.

Stuff like that. What do you think?
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[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.

[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
aceraptor said:
Uh, you seem to be assuming that hiding it now will preclude revealing it later when the GM SPECIFICALLY STATED that we'll have the option of revealing it later on.

Also, Russia's empire is NOT falling apart yet. When it goes into collapse mode is when Alex finally bites it via old age.

Its in large part about Public Relations. Alex dislikes us but we havent shouted it into the world that we seek to reunite the nation yet. That means we are lower in the to-do list than some other threats closer to home. But if we shout that out and gain legitimacy and political weight to plausibly start building up to that state we wil rapidly go up in the to-do list. And I for one am not certain we can weather Russian *and* Japanese attention well for the two turns needed for California to start revolting.

Again. We can reveal the document *later* once we've gotten our house built up with a more solid foundation and gotten counter intelligence buffed up *and* Russia is distracted by California's revolt. In fact it may be advantageous to reveal it after California revolts in order to force Alex and Japan to split their attention at a crucial point.
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Any Russian response will not be instantaneous, and while they are not crumbling yet they are fraying. If Alexander focuses his military on us then that will accelerate their decline near home. He likely knows this and will limit himself to covert operations.

I'm also not concerned about Japan because they are too far from us and too low in population to be a major threat. They have better tech, but it would be a grinding war of attrition for them which they can't afford. It also just isn't as big of a priority for them as it is for Russia.
 
Wave the flag, brothers and sisters.

[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

Look, we can be cute and reveal it on the Tricentennial, we can try and hedge our bets to present it in the best possible light. Or we can let one of if not the most powerful symbols of America speak for itself.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
rikalous said:
If reveal wins, it's happening after the peace talks, specifically so that doesn't happen.
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Good to know.

aceraptor said:
Again. We can reveal the document *later* once we've gotten our house built up with a more solid foundation and gotten counter intelligence buffed up *and* Russia is distracted by California's revolt. In fact it may be advantageous to reveal it after California revolts in order to force Alex and Japan to split their attention at a crucial point.
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As I see it, this is the heart of the problem with announcing we have the Declaration this turn. People have advanced very good arguments for why we should tell everyone that we have the Declaration, and I agree with all of them. But people haven't given me a convincing argument for why we should do it more or less immediately. What does doing it now get us that doing it later doesn't?

And I want people to be specific. To be blunt, patriotic rhetoric is nice, but it doesn't actually mean very much.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
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