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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
So in that case should all local priests have a direct line to their god? Including said god's ability ro divine through mind blank if he really needed to? Could you guys ever trust a single priest of R'hllor is they had that kind of knowlege/power on call (assuming he could do it)?
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You're not really forming a convincing argument here. Priests half way across the world to Yss could send a Raven or message by Sand and expect a succinct but at least direct reply to a matter of Faith from Yss, for example.

And the Seven seem to think focusing all of their attention on the direct divine agents they do have is just fine, to the point of nearly being helicopter Gods.

And I point out Bloodraven, who has a direct phone line to the Hivemind deity and can just meditate for half an hour for the really tough questions and give accurate and detailed explanations on their intent.
 
Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, I assume the priest will give us the spindle once Melisandre informs him that it's not actually a relic or R'hllor? I'm hoping I'm right here, it's going to be a bit of a headache if we have to convince him to part with something he holds sacred.
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Probably yeah

Crake said:
You're not really forming a convincing argument here. Priests half way across the world to Yss could send a Raven or message by Sand and expect a succinct but at least direct reply to a matter of Faith from Yss, for example.

And the Seven seem to think focusing all of their attention on the direct divine agents they do have is just fine, to the point of nearly being helicopter Gods.

And I point out Bloodraven, who has a direct phone line to the Hivemind deity and can just meditate for half an hour for the really tough questions and give accurate and detailed explanations on their intent.
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Very true, but all those gods have different philosophies in how they interact with the world as well as different opportunistic to do so, like the weirwood network and Yss' avatar.
 
Crake said:
You're not really forming a convincing argument here. Priests half way across the world to Yss could send a Raven or message by Sand and expect a succinct but at least direct reply to a matter of Faith from Yss, for example.

And the Seven seem to think focusing all of their attention on the direct divine agents they do have is just fine, to the point of nearly being helicopter Gods.

And I point out Bloodraven, who has a direct phone line to the Hivemind deity and can just meditate for half an hour for the really tough questions and give accurate and detailed explanations on their intent.
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To be fair, those situations are not the same at all:

The Seven are even worse than R'hllor, completely cutting off 99.999% of their priesthood from all support, while promising complete support, in a display of both negligence and blatant lies that I believe should be punishable by law.

The Old Gods explicitly promise nothing to the little guy, Bloodraven is working for them directly.

Yss is best god, and being a hundred million years too early to defeat him is not something you can hold against other gods.
 
DragonParadox said:
Probably yeah



Very true, but all those gods have different philosophies in how they interact with the world as well as different opportunistic to do so, like the weirwood network and Yss' avatar.
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I think it just explains what colors the thread's perceptions of what opportunity costs that a Deity could take that would legitimately earn our respect vs. philosophy seeming to almost attempt to excuse lack of wherewithal to uphold what we view as the bare minimum commitment to their organized clergy.

If they can't meet that bar, they're kind a joke.
 
Crake said:
I think it just explains what colors the thread's perceptions of what opportunity costs that a Deity could take that would legitimately earn our respect vs. philosophy seeming to almost attempt to excuse lack of wherewithal to uphold what we view as the bare minimum commitment to their organized clergy.

If they can't meet that bar, they're kind a joke.
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My opinion is the old gods get a pass because they basically promise nothing much, have no clergy, and just ask you to follow a set of common sense rules you should follow anyway for your own good.
 
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Crake said:
You're not really forming a convincing argument here. Priests half way across the world to Yss could send a Raven or message by Sand and expect a succinct but at least direct reply to a matter of Faith from Yss, for example.

And the Seven seem to think focusing all of their attention on the direct divine agents they do have is just fine, to the point of nearly being helicopter Gods.

And I point out Bloodraven, who has a direct phone line to the Hivemind deity and can just meditate for half an hour for the really tough questions and give accurate and detailed explanations on their intent.
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I expect Yss to be really bad at answering mail though. Or at holding long conversations. He probably does things like dreams or two-word non-answers, with the occasional cryptic body language.
 
Crake said:
I think it just explains what colors the thread's perceptions of what opportunity costs that a Deity could take that would legitimately earn our respect vs. philosophy seeming to almost attempt to excuse lack of wherewithal to uphold what we view as the bare minimum commitment to their organized clergy.

If they can't meet that bar, they're kind a joke.
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And that is perfectly fine. I'm not trying to persuade you guys OOC that R'hllor is great, this whole conversation started from me trying to explain what Melisandre said and what her views are as a character.
 
The Old Gods are excused because they aren't trying to sell snake oil to the masses, yes. They offer deals, they have agents making it known what's on offer, and they want to help on a macro-scale, they just don't care about the micro. That's not laudable in itself, but it's respectable.

The Seven as you pointed out view how they operate as protecting their Faithful, but instead just poisons it against itself and leaves it vulnerable to outside forces subverting it. They are negligent in the extreme and allowed lies to take hold instead of forming a base set of beliefs with a strong foundation on reality (practical doesn't necessarily have to be antithetical to strong moral principles).

Yss is indeed Best God, and deities should probably be taking notes from Grandpa Snek.
 
Yss' flaw is that he is alien and inscrutable. You guys don't notice this because you are playing a mythic red dragon sorcerer, but to the average man Yss version of practicality can be bone-chillingly terrifying.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I expect Yss to be really bad at answering mail though. Or at holding long conversations. He probably does things like dreams or two-word non-answers, with the occasional cryptic body language.
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The concept of the "Common Tongue" and "Valyrian language" is new to him. He was an old god when the future creators of these languages were bashing each other with rocks and sticks.

Edit: Forgive him for not being good at the whole communication thing.
 
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One Autumn Leaf said:
The concept of the "Common Tongue" and "Valyrian language" is new to him. He was an old god when the future creators of these languages were bashing each other with rocks and sticks.
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Don't be daft. The Andals may have had rocks, but the Dragons made sure their slaves had primitive metal working by then. The better to extract gold from under the rocks, that is. :V
 
Crake said:
The Seven as you pointed out view how they operate as protecting their Faithful, but instead just poisons it against itself and leaves it vulnerable to outside forces subverting it. They are negligent in the extreme and allowed lies to take hold instead of forming a base set of beliefs with a strong foundation on reality (practical doesn't necessarily have to be antithetical to strong moral principles).
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I agree. Likely Lucan and several other chosen and a number of the seven also agree with these sentiments.

The father in particular must be livid.

Crake said:
Reality is terrifying.

He wants you to be able to confront it.
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Thats... Questionable? With that level of bone deep practicality who's to say Yss gives a shit about you? Or any of his followers beyond them being a means to an end? He doesn't lie, but then how many people can really understand him anyway?

Is that better? To have a coldly practical and efficient god, rather than an unreliable one who actually cares about you?

Crake said:
The Old Gods are excused because they aren't trying to sell snake oil to the masses, yes. They offer deals, they have agents making it known what's on offer, and they want to help on a macro-scale, they just don't care about the micro. That's not laudable in itself, but it's respectable.

The Seven as you pointed out view how they operate as protecting their Faithful, but instead just poisons it against itself and leaves it vulnerable to outside forces subverting it. They are negligent in the extreme and allowed lies to take hold instead of forming a base set of beliefs with a strong foundation on reality (practical doesn't necessarily have to be antithetical to strong moral principles).

Yss is indeed Best God, and deities should probably be taking notes from Grandpa Snek.
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I don't dislike? the old gods, but I'm going to always point out that they had as much hesitation about eating children as some of the magisters we executed did.
 
zxzx24 said:
I agree. Likely Lucan and several other chosen and a number of the seven also agree with these sentiments.

The father in particular must be livid.
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Why would they be angry? I mean, they could be a little angry, but it's a situation entirely of their own making. As is having abandoned 99.999% of their priesthood without so much as a single level of Adept for utility. The only people they can be angry with about that is themselves.

That does beg the question: has anyone ever pointed out that, given the distribution of magical power and believers, to break even every Chosen should be protecting an entire kingdom by themselves?
 
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zxzx24 said:
I don't hate the old gods, but I'm going to always point out that they had as much hesitation about eating children as some of the magisters we executed did.
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Sure they did. It was a sacrifice. They, as gods, have to give back to such a prayer. By their very nature they have to reward such a thing. Now is it wrong? Well that has been a subjective topic for many a century. They just have an older answer to right and wrong.
 
065tdsa said:
Why would they be angry? I mean, they could be a little angry, but it's a situation entirely of their own making. As is having abandoned 99.999% of their priesthood without so much as a single level of Adept for utility. The only people they can be angry with about that is themselves.

That does beg the question: has anyone ever pointed out that, given the distribution of magical power and believers, to break even every Chosen should be protecting an entire kingdom by themselves?
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They didn't actually engineer this situation, they got fucked over during the nap.

They're just stuck with it now because of how many people believe the new version.

Except for their chosen of course...

One Autumn Leaf said:
Sure they did. It was a sacrifice. They, as gods, have to give back to such a prayer. By their very nature they have to reward such a thing. Now is it wrong? Well that has been a subjective topic for many a century. They just have an older answer to right and wrong.
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"Is eating children bad? The awnser may surprise you. News at 11."

Also, they explicitly deny worship so they maintain TOTAL control over their nature. They are 100% calling the shots.
 
zxzx24 said:
"Is eating children bad? The awnser may surprise you. News at 11."

Also, they explicitly deny worship so they maintain TOTAL control over their nature. They are 100% calling the shots.
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The problem is that they are too close to nature, to us humans killing children is bad, but for many animals, well, its par for the course.
That's why they need someone like Bloodraven to tell them that its not ok, because on their own either they could not or would not adapt to our own system of values.
If anything the blame is on whatever follower decided to sacrifice children, for they should have know it was wrong.
 
zxzx24 said:
"Is eating children bad? The awnser may surprise you. News at 11."
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Depends on who you ask and what time period it is
zxzx24 said:
Also, they explicitly deny worship so they maintain TOTAL control over their nature. They are 100% calling the shots.
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Of course. Why let a bunch of hairless monkeys decide how their personality is when they can do it for themselves.

Edit: Plus if the humans have an issue with sacrificing babies they can just stop and punish the perpetrator who did it.
 
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zxzx24 said:
They didn't actually engineer this situation, they got fucked over during the nap.

They're just stuck with it now because of how many people believe the new version.

Except for their chosen of course...



"Is eating children bad? The awnser may surprise you. News at 11."

Also, they explicitly deny worship so they maintain TOTAL control over their nature. They are 100% calling the shots.
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You have a point, but I'd contend the difference is in the level of malice and intent. The Old Gods don't want to eat children, or puppies, or innocent peasants; they just want to eat, and don't care much for the details of how their food is made (in most cases).

This isn't a laudable thing, it's just as nasty as it looks, but it is manageable. As long as we control their food supply we can moderate the worst effects of their eating habits. So long as that remains true they are as good an influence on the world as any other major power, and solid allies.

This, in my mind, is what justifies working with them despite their tendencies. Just having the potential for monstrous actions isn't the same thing as seeking them out, much less actually performing them.
 
So it's humanities fault for feeding babies to the old gods. Not the old gods fault for eating them?

Is that what were spinning with?

And we dropped the "the old gods reward feeding them children" from the board?

BronzeTongue said:
Just having the potential for monstrous actions isn't the same thing as seeking them out, much less actually performi
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And when they do do those things? Like against the followers of the seven for example?

And not the 7 themselves mind you, just their followers.
 
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