- Pronouns
- He/Him
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- USA
[X] [Motion] Status Quo. The Xenoparakletor will choose whoever they wish to accompany them on foreign missions.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[x] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[x] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[x] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[x] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[x] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[x] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Vote will close tomorrow in the evening.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Well a more centralized league can only be held together two ways. One way is by force and suppression of the other members, as Athens and Sparta have pursued. The other is with the strength of a common identity such as with the Boetians and Thessalians (and in some ways perhaps Makedon).
Bringing the Oracle to Eretria strengthens Eretria as it exists now, among those who presently accept the cult of the Divine Marriage. Sending the Oracle to Kymai strengthens the League's cohesion and common identity by insuring the Eastern half of the Adriatic adopts the Divine Marriage in more than lip service to Eretria's power. We can perhaps spread the Divine Marriage with other choices, just as we have other opportunities to increase Eretria's cultural pull without the Oracle. But those are the options now at hand so it depends on how expansive a view of Eretria you take.
Last edited:
- Location
- United States
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
As I mentioned before however these choices also exists in the context of a wider Mediterranean world.
With the war raging on and off and Corinth inching for a fight all the potential of Divine Marriage Nea Kymai can easily end up never coming into being. The truth is that the Oracle is safer in Eretria than a new Colony more easily within reach of Corinth, both as an asset and a religious icon.
The talk of the cult spread across the Adriatic from kymai is simply not a very likely nor practical one.
It's true that the choice of staying in Eretria sacrifices wider influence of build wide for better protection and build tall but that's not a terrible trade at all in the current age. And I would rather go for the sure bet that will enrich us than to potentially throw it away in a much more risky and uncertain gamble.
With the war raging on and off and Corinth inching for a fight all the potential of Divine Marriage Nea Kymai can easily end up never coming into being. The truth is that the Oracle is safer in Eretria than a new Colony more easily within reach of Corinth, both as an asset and a religious icon.
The talk of the cult spread across the Adriatic from kymai is simply not a very likely nor practical one.
It's true that the choice of staying in Eretria sacrifices wider influence of build wide for better protection and build tall but that's not a terrible trade at all in the current age. And I would rather go for the sure bet that will enrich us than to potentially throw it away in a much more risky and uncertain gamble.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
And the cult spread into our Iagepye neighbors is going to be more with an Eteria Oracle which would help with going after the Dauni.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
This actually ignores the fact that it ensures the loyalty of Nea Kymai more, and allows them more people, thus increasing the size of the fleet we can raise to oppose Corinth.
Using your own argument, that Corinth is dangerous, surely more ships and possibly more loyalty via shared Greek culture is more valuable than a prestige bonus when it comes to war?
Last edited:
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Man this is scare-mongering directly contradicted by Cetashwayo repeatedly affirming there's no trap option. Corinth is not going to make a beeline for Nea Kymai to kill the Oracle like it's a Hero Unit in a game. Corinth isn't going to kill the Oracle, period, because it would risk the wrath of Apollo and Athena and rally everyone in the area against them for such an outrageous act of sacrilege.
Last edited:
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Not really? The Iapgyians have been in range of a Great Work for ages and still mainline Artemis, hell, that's why we chose to add the Artemisian grove. Not only that but we don't actually need the Oracle to deal with the Dauni, our military, economy and culture are leagues beyond them anyway, we've already subverted the Pueketii and started to subvert the Messappi even without an Oracle. Also they've survived because we never invaded them or were too busy to properly subvert them.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
We only recently updated the divine hill and the Oracle we were told would attract those as far as rome so with the Dauni being closer the soft power from the Oracle can be used to greater effect. Which means less commitment of other resources such as military and economic
- Location
- Southern Virginia
The Dauni aren't going to give up their independence without a war, regardless of which gods they worship.
Changing my vote because of this. Unless it's sarcastic. Please inform me if it is, thank you.
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It is not sarcastic.
Also, in a scenario where Korinthos took Kymai, they'd just seize the city and put a compliant oligarchy and leave it at that. Why would they touch the sybil?
Also, in a scenario where Korinthos took Kymai, they'd just seize the city and put a compliant oligarchy and leave it at that. Why would they touch the sybil?
Do you have any idea how seriously the Ancient Greeks took oracle killing? I mean, that's some pretty heavy blasphemy right there. What you're talking about is political suicide for Korinthos.
So stop it with the context-insensitive fear-mongering.
fasquardon
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I am bringing up a reasonable concern. It's only scare mongering if you choose to misinterpret my argument into "Corinth will have a murder bone lock on for Kymai" Rather than me pointing out that it is a dangerous neighborhood and thus that Kymai is in more risk of getting sacked because it's closer to Corinth and didnt have the years we had to build up defenses. Which puts the Oracle at more risk. Which is not me saying she will be killed but that it does put her at risk. War is never that orderly and shit can always go wrong.
Furthermore again you misinterpret my actual argument. You claim that I have calling the Kymai divine Marriage a trap option which is absurdly bad faith debating. My actual point is that it's more dangerous because of the politics which is true. And that it's the option that would require more investment and protection to pay off due to that. But that yes if we can manage it the rewards would be sweet. But it is a riskier gambit.
And thus I prefer to take the safer option with perhaps less far reaching rewards.
What part of that is fearmongering or calling it a trap option?
Last edited:
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Okay I feel like people are hearing me say that Corinth will kill the Oracle. Which is not what I was saying.
My lesser point is simply the risk inherent in being in a warzone due to genuine accidents. It happens. But it's not my main worry.
My main point is more that in the event Kymai is sacked and burned the forest of the divine Marriage won't continue due to it being new and losing legitimacy due to the sack. Leading to the survivors or new settlers and the Oracle or her heir turning away from it and championing other cults.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Why would they choose to give up their rituals and religious practices even in the face of a sack?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
About the only Greek I can think of who got around with so much as striking an oracle was Alexander.
And he also got away with claiming to be a god.
At least, so long as the victories kept coming.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Because in the timeframes I am talking about the cult would still a new thing from weird Eretria. It's not one of their old traditions born from themselves and thus it's easier to put the blame on that and turn their focus back on their old rituals and practices.
Give it a generation and it wouldn't happen. But my point is that I am not sure nea kymai has that kind of time frame to work with
Well, OK. You are still directly calling into question things the QM has flatly said we'd get if we put the Sybil in Nea Kymai.
And sure, Nea Kymai won't be 100% safe in a war. But neither will Eretria.
Yeah, winning all the way from Illyria to the Indus River has a way of giving a man extra leeway...
fasquardon
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
This is the Sybil, the Oracle, this is the lady who, when the Gods speak, they address it to her, not 'to whom it may concern'. She is choosing to embrace the Divine Marriage. She is choosing to spread the Divine Marriage whever we choose for her to go. She, the Gods, have chosen to allow us to determine which prophecy will come true.
If she or her heirs changes her mind, even in the face of Korinth defeating us, even in the face of a sack, that implies that she was wrong. That the Divine Marriage was not a divine truth. That they were wrong to have embraced it.
I can think of no faster way for the Sybil to needlessly damage her authority as a diviner of the future, and a voice of the Gods. If she was wrong about this, what else is she wrong about? No, instead they are likely to claim that either we, or they, offended the Gods in some way for them to be delivered into the hands of their enemies so. People don't turn their backs on the Gods because things have not gone well for them.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
No, but if Korinth isn't being bottled up by Athens, it is going to contest our slowly growing hold on the Adriatic, and it may even do so immediately-- "beeline" towards that goal, to use your terminology. That is a fight we currently cannot win. If the situation in the Adriatic devolves into war, we have a good chance of losing political control of Nea Kymai. In fact, we've even seen the blueprint for how such a conflict might erupt with Kerkyra!
To be honest, I'm getting real Kerkyra deja vu off your vote. You're voting to send the oligarchs-- who have existing tensions with the rest of Kymai, to Nea Kymai. Simultaneously you're voting to put a culture & prestige generation machine (the oracle) in Nea Kymai, making it an even more tempting target. Furthermore, you know that we don't have the current naval capacity to fend off Korinth and our agreement with Taras prevents us from throwing our lot in with Athens.
So the realistic course of events (if Korinth makes a play for the Adriatic) is that they will rouse the oligarchs against the people of Nea Kymai, overthrowing the government. Then the Oracle will become a Korinthian possession in fact if not in name. And unlike the Athenians, we don't have the navy to koolaid man our way through Korinth's navy and then kill off the oligarchs. It will be a shitshow.
Oh, I don't know, one of these has a wall? And a navy nearby? And isn't in the Adriatic?
Last edited:
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Which thing? The growth of cultural unity and potential spread of the divine marriage to mainland hellas? The latter of which certainly isnt guaranteed with competing cults and oracles. The former of which I argued was dependent on Kymai and its cult of divine marriage to survive to tribulations.
Eretria isnt 100% safe. But it is much safer as one of the biggest cities around with strong defenses and armies.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Sure, but what would the Korinthians do with the Sybil? Make her take back her words? You can ignore the oracle, you can ignore the Auguries, but you cannot make them say what you want them to say.