OOC: At the risk of repeating myself, Heliodoros believes that giving up the Sybil, especially when said Sybil is directly tied to a prophecy proclaiming the elevation of Eretria to worldwide greatness is akin to refusing a blessing from the gods. To him, this isn't merely a short-term trinket you palm off to somebody else to have, this is something you keep for generations.
The idea of spreading the cult appeals very little to him.
OOC: At the risk of repeating myself, Heliodoros believes that giving up the Sybil, especially when said Sybil is directly tied to a prophecy proclaiming the elevation of Eretria to worldwide greatness is akin to refusing a blessing from the gods. To him, this isn't merely a short-term trinket you palm off to somebody else to have, this is something you keep for generations.
The idea of spreading the cult appeals very little to him.
Nobody is going to look at the Oracle and think generosity as nobody in character will link it to an Eretrian decision. In character it is the will of the gods that determines where the Oracle will go. A great many things can be said about the Oracle going to Ereteia or New Kymai but generosity certainly isn't one of them.
I agree that people IC won't see the oracle going to Nea Kymai as Eretrian generosity. But OOC, other posters are casting it in that light and it is that which I am arguing against.
There are good arguments for hosting the Sybil in Eretria, but to say the alternative is too generous is absolutely not one of them.
Really this is an argument between which of two beneficial futures is best, and different people have different goals for Eretria. Either way, I think Eretria will make out like bandits from this. To use a term from another quest, we are Nabooing Kymai and hard.
It's from this (link to thread 1) quest (link to thread 2). Where at one point the MC robbed the planet Naboo blind (after helping arrange the Trade Federation invasion, which was used as a distraction for said series of heists) then used the windfall from said robberies to fund some high profile charity to help Naboo rebuild, becoming a much loved benefactor to the world. So really, the "charity" was not at all charitable. Though Eretria hasn't helped the Samnites invade Campagnia, the situation is similar in that the "generosity" we're showing to Kymai is ultimately about serving Eretrian ambitions I think.
It's from this (link to thread 1) quest (link to thread 2). Where at one point the MC robbed the planet Naboo blind (after helping arrange the Trade Federation invasion, which was used as a distraction for said series of heists) then used the windfall from said robberies to fund some high profile charity to help Naboo rebuild, becoming a much loved benefactor to the world. So really, the "charity" was not at all charitable. Though Eretria hasn't helped the Samnites invade Campagnia, the situation is similar in that the "generosity" we're showing to Kymai is ultimately about serving Eretrian ambitions I think.
I think there's a pretty sharp difference between:
1) Secretly selling someone out for personal gain and then using the proceeds to make them love you, and
2) Volunteering to help someone and doing so in a way that will benefit you both by securing them as a future ally.
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
Huh... tied vote for the Oracle 41-41... i wonder if the votes will reach a hundred... @Cetashwayo does the ekrodomoi act as our police as well? What are the most common crimes in our city by the way?
Huh... tied vote for the Oracle 41-41... i wonder if the votes will reach a hundred... @Cetashwayo does the ekrodomoi act as our police as well? What are the most common crimes in our city by the way?
Not quite, if we count @Darkcrest in there, assuming he changes his vote so that it is counted together with the other options rather than being on its own for some reason, it would be 42-41.
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Lands] We will keep the land to allot to Kymai and other new colonies [+250 more Kymaians will move to Nea Kymai, Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra will remain stagnant but the land will be open for other new colonies].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
I was adamant of the importance of applying the Linean laws to Nea Kymai so that we might further lay the foundation of a League bound together as a unique Epulian culture. But to give the Kymai the oracle inducts them into our cult and culture. It will incentivize the Kymaians to travel to fair Eretria to gaze upon our great temple, and for Eretrians to travel and stay among the Kymaians to hear the wise words of their Sibyl along with the rest of the League.
In the longer term, by placing a major center of Eretrian culture and religion outside of Eretia we can potentially see more domestic support for potentially instituting sympoliteia throughout the Epulian League. And that is pretty much the holy grail of my ambitions for it.
In the longer term, by placing a major center of Eretrian culture and religion outside of Eretia we can potentially see more domestic support for potentially instituting sympoliteia throughout the Epulian League. And that is pretty much the holy grail of my ambitions for it.
I think there's a pretty sharp difference between:
1) Secretly selling someone out for personal gain and then using the proceeds to make them love you, and
2) Volunteering to help someone and doing so in a way that will benefit you both by securing them as a future ally.
I am a man of simple pleasures and appetites, who prefers the rolling hills and the fertile plains than the hustle and bustle of the city. I enjoy waking up to the crowing of the cocks and the mooing of my cow as the sun rises. Hence, when i heard of the prophecy of the Oracle from wise Obander, my mind focused on the poetry of her words and the imagery that it envoked.
On one hand, a strong and proud stone tree while on the other a supple and growing wood tree. Both trees would bring glory and strength to our poleis but through differing means. With much soul searching, i chose to cast my lot for the wood tree, for the humble tree would grow and eventually provide shelter, food, and ships. A stone tree may provide the first but the latter two i doubt. Have you tried making a stone not sink? Its impossible i tell ye!
So says I, kalyx the animal breeder. Now let me see the horses that you young fools lamed and pray that i can mend them back to full health!
It is a hard call. But in the end? I do want to centralize League, I think - I do not think decentralized cultures can survive being conquered by centralized ones.
Well, naturally at some point we will be conquered by somebody. Still, decentralization feels like weakness to me? Eretria should be first among equals - sure, equals, but still first. I am not 100% sure which vote will bring that closer, so....
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
I was adamant of the importance of applying the Linean laws to Nea Kymai so that we might further lay the foundation of a League bound together as a unique Epulian culture. But to give the Kymai the oracle inducts them into our cult and culture. It will incentivize the Kymaians to travel to fair Eretria to gaze upon our great temple, and for Eretrians to travel and stay among the Kymaians to hear the wise words of their Sibyl along with the rest of the League.
In the longer term, by placing a major center of Eretrian culture and religion outside of Eretia we can potentially see more domestic support for potentially instituting sympoliteia throughout the Epulian League. And that is pretty much the holy grail of my ambitions for it.
When it comes to the two options regarding the Sibyl, I think the distinction between them is that one focuses on shoring up the Epulian League through further growing the Cult of the Divine Marriage within our Adriatic Colonies, while the other option of keeping the Sibyl for ourselves would further grant us greater prestige and cultural influence within Italia in both the immediate and long term.
Both of the options presented here assists us culturally. Placing the Sibyl in Nea Kymai is something that will obviously lend greater credence to the Cult of the Divine Marriage among our Adriatic Colonies and our Epulian League allies. The thing is, I think that it obviously won't happen immediately like a culture bomb in a Civilization game would, but instead is something that will take place over time, with the Sibyl simply acting as a catalyst to boost the growth rate of the Cult. As great as that is, though, one of my main issues of contention I have with this option is that after we pick the option, it's effects are rather passive, in that we can't really direct how the growth of the Cult will occur, while with the other option, it gives us more flexibility and agency.
One of my main reasons for my belief in that is this:
It will grow in different directions and ways, and have a slightly different flavor. But it will certainly grow faster because it is no longer just an ethnic cult of Eretria but a more general cult that cuts across cultural differences.
Due to the Sibyl having more legitimacy than any of our priests would, what with her connection to the gods, as the Cult of the Divine Marriage grows and spreads we won't be able to truly direct how it spreads as it occurring far from us with the words being given greater weight due to the Sibyl's influence. While that is not necessarily a bad thing for us, it will definitely have unknown side effects in the future as the cult's changes will then apply to Eretria, with us having to adapt to said changes.
Furthermore, I think it's important to remember that choice to send the Sibyl to Eretria does not prevent us from spreading the Cult of the Divine Marriage to the rest of the Epulian League, it would simply grow at a slower rate due to still being associated with Eretria rather than being a cross-cultural cult.
It's sentences like this, that imply to me that even if we do take the Sibyl, the Cult of the Divine Marriage will grow either way, as in both cases the Sibyl will still be an Oracle of Apollon and Athene.
So while I of course think it would be beneficial to spread the Cult of the Divine Marriage and Eretrian Culture across the Epulian League, and get to sympoliteia one day, I don't think that the choice here is a mutual one, and that we can't do so if we take the Sibyl into Eretria.
When it comes to my main reasons for placing the Oracle in Eretria, the reasons are myriad. One of the first ones is listed above, in that the Oracle would grant us a massive legitimacy boost. Practically speaking, this is a great boon for us and well worth the price of 70 talents as this helps to shore up our own internal stability while at the same time increasing our prestige near and far. For example, with the Oracle within Eretria, if we found ourselves faced with a difficult situation, one that is rather contentious among the citizenry, through consulting the Oracle our decision on that matter would have much greater weight and cause less divisiveness than without her as her words could be said to be backed by the gods, making it so that a normally controversial decision is a more accepted one so long as it fits the bounds of the Oracle's advice.
At the same time, keeping it at Eretria will give you some cool stuff like being able to call upon the Sybil for advice or receiving delegations from Romans and other Italians seeking the Sybil.
Aside from that, one of the other main reasons for establishing the Sybil within Eretria is the huge local cultural influence we would receive. While sending the Sybil to Nea Kymai will assist in spreading the Cult of the Divine Marriage within the Epulian League, especially in the Adriatics, I don't think that it will equate to granting us increased influence closer at home in Italia due to the geography and regional prominence of the Sybil. As we have recently seen, while the founding of our city has had some effect on the local barbaroi in terms of culture, it is not as significant as we would like. Furthermore, as was evidenced in the update, it seems that we may have more trouble brewing at home than we realized as seen in the incidents with the Peuketi, who we previously assumed were content and docile. Considering the fact that barbaroi like the Oscans and Romans greatly respect the Sybil, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say that the Peuketi, Messapii, and Dauni would similarly be influenced by her and grow culturally closer to Eretria as a result. While having the Sybil won't save us from say the Romans later down the line if they come knocking with their Legions, just like it didn't help the Kymaians against the Oscans, the prestige that housing her would give us is still not something to sniff at. As, even though our future growth likely remains rooted in the Epulian League and our Adriatic colonies, who will assist us through their League dues and levies, we cannot ignore Italia and Sikelia, two of the areas where the Sybil is most noted to have influence.
There are oracles with regional significance like the Sybil of Kymai but the oracle of Delphoi is pan-Hellenic. Dodona is also very important in northern Greece.
If the Sybil goes to Nea Kymai, it would not surprise me if her influence within Italia and Sikelia waned as she is no longer as present within those regions. If she is in Eretria, however, we could use her influence and words to help assist us not only culturally, but also diplomatically as we would be building further relations with the other Italian powers passively. Thus keeping ourselves abreast of the situation within Italia, while also giving us a means of exerting influence through her words. While that may not lead to directly spreading the Cult of the Divine Marriage across Italia, by actively increasing our cultural prominence, we can keep ourselves relevant in Italia and Sikelia, the two main areas which we have to keep an eye on as they currently in flux.
With the Oracle in Eretria, aside from having her advice, which is something we can directly use to guide our actions and probably derive bonuses in the dice from them if we do so, we will also be given more agency when it comes to spreading our culture and influence, as with her regional significance, using her words we would be better able to diplomatically maneuver ourselves within Italia and Sikelia.
That's my main thoughts on the vote at the moment, stripped of all of the flowery language talking IC necessitates.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 9, 2019 at 6:13 AM, finished with 6466 posts and 84 votes.
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Lands] We will keep the land to allot to Kymai and other new colonies [+250 more Kymaians will move to Nea Kymai, Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra will remain stagnant but the land will be open for other new colonies].
As great as that is, though, one of my main issues of contention I have with this option is that after we pick the option, it's effects are rather passive, in that we can't really direct how the growth of the Cult will occur, while with the other option, it gives us more flexibility and agency.
I actually see the passivity of sending the Sibyl to Nea Kymai as a hidden advantage. Flexibility and agency are nice boni, however they also require us to take direct actions to spread our culture.
Action slots is something we are already hard pressed to find, with Krotone/Dauni/Picentes requiring our attention abroad. The next domestic slate probably focused on income and the one after that likely to be decided by the need for sewers, which appear to be the obvious choice in 6 years as we already observe disease outbreaks in our work camps. Add to that the ongoing Peloponnesian War throwing a new crisis our way every four years and I have a hard time seeing us getting much culture spreading done before the end of the century.
I don't dispute the wide-ranging long-term benefits of placing the Sibyl in Eretria, however I have my doubts whether we will get chance to focus and take advantage anytime soon. In my opinion the oracles benefits would be much more diminished, if we continue on our usual path of splitting our attention between; expanding the league, establishing trade, subjugating barbaroi and making sure there is no hostile hegemon/coalition in Magna Graecia. Which of those are we willing to scale back to make room for a stronger cultural/religious focus?
If the wooden sapling option wins, we'd end this turn with 4,600 potential freemen for Nea Kymai. This would make it the largest Greek Polis on the eastern Adriatic coastline, ahead of Epidamnos with 4,000 and Apollonia with 3,500. Having the biggest polis in the region be a beacon from which our culture can spread, to both new and potential future members of the Epulian League, should not be underestimated. Furthermore, this would probably take place over the next two decades without much active participation by us, potentially opening the way for us to take full control of the Adriatic while the mainland powers are still distracted.
Japanime has a good point about the increased Hellenization of our barbarous allies being achieved from the Oracle coming to Eretria. It will help keep a lid on problems from that front and decrease the action slots needed to maintain/strengthen our hold over our tributaries. It also means the passive bonus to diplomacy in Italia/Sicily will further increase our action slot efficiency as our actions have more weight as supported by the Oracle and the Gods ontop of the general passive bonuses present.
I actually see the passivity of sending the Sibyl to Nea Kymai as a hidden advantage. Flexibility and agency are nice boni, however they also require us to take direct actions to spread our culture.
Action slots is something we are already hard pressed to find, with Krotone/Dauni/Picentes requiring our attention abroad. The next domestic slate probably focused on income and the one after that likely to be decided by the need for sewers, which appear to be the obvious choice in 6 years as we already observe disease outbreaks in our work camps. Add to that the ongoing Peloponnesian War throwing a new crisis our way every four years and I have a hard time seeing us getting much culture spreading done before the end of the century.
I don't dispute the wide-ranging long-term benefits of placing the Sibyl in Eretria, however I have my doubts whether we will get chance to focus and take advantage anytime soon. In my opinion the oracles benefits would be much more diminished, if we continue on our usual path of splitting our attention between; expanding the league, establishing trade, subjugating barbaroi and making sure there is no hostile hegemon/coalition in Magna Graecia. Which of those are we willing to scale back to make room for a stronger cultural/religious focus?
If the wooden sapling option wins, we'd end this turn with 4,600 potential freemen for Nea Kymai. This would make it the largest Greek Polis on the eastern Adriatic coastline, ahead of Epidamnos with 4,000 and Apollonia with 3,500. Having the biggest polis in the region be a beacon from which our culture can spread, to both new and potential future members of the Epulian League, should not be underestimated. Furthermore, this would probably take place over the next two decades without much active participation by us, potentially opening the way for us to take full control of the Adriatic while the mainland powers are still distracted.
While it is true that sending the Oracle to Nea Kymai would grant passive culture spread in the Adriatic due to her presence there, it's not as if having the Oracle in Eretria wouldn't give passives of its own as well. As you just illustrated, a lot of our attention will be consumed by essentially foreign ventures. As was said earlier the presence of the Oracle within Eretria will passively help us build relations across Italia due to the regional significance she possesses, from the Romans, to the Oscans, to even the Sikeliotes, I would not be surprised if the passive effect of expeditions of important foreigners visiting us is a boost in relations with them. Furthermore, when you speak about all of those foreign missions we are going to undertake, would the cultural and prestige boost of having the Oracle not help us when we actively try to maneuver through these situations? And that is not even considering the active help we would get from getting her advice.
There will always be a need to weigh our options and make tough choices, putting off actions until later so that we can deal with more pressing matters. So while placing the Oracle in Eretria would make it harder for us to passively spread our culture within the Epulian League, I view the trade off in gaining passive diplomatic capital through having visiting delegations and increased cultural significance within our region as being worth it. It's not as if we wouldn't want to actively spread our culture with the Oracle within Nea Kymai as there is only so much here presence could do there to shore up the foundations of the Epulian League.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 9, 2019 at 10:32 PM, finished with 340 posts and 88 votes.
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] We will keep the land to allot to Kymai and other new colonies [+250 more Kymaians will move to Nea Kymai, Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra will remain stagnant but the land will be open for other new colonies].
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
In my opinion it comes down to the fact that the sapling of wood is much easier fit into our current priorities. Also, the passive culture effect on the Adriatic is focused on a less populated region and should thus become observable within a decade or to. Meanwhile, the passive culture impact on Italia(Romans&Oscans) will be heavily diluted (target size and distance) and will accordingly take alot longer to show any effects. How the Iapygians will react to the Oracle (and if that requires further actions) remains to be seen and is unmentioned in the update.
In my opinion it comes down to the fact that the sapling of wood is much easier fit into our current priorities. Also, the passive culture effect on the Adriatic is focused on a less populated region and should thus become observable within a decade or to. Meanwhile, the passive culture impact on Italia(Romans&Oscans) will be heavily diluted (target size and distance) and will accordingly take alot longer to show any effects. How the Iapygians will react to the Oracle (and if that requires further actions) remains to be seen and is unmentioned in the update.
I'm not quite sure what you mean?
The passive cultural conversion would surely be faster among the relatively small Greek poleis of the Adriatic, than among the populous Oscan and Latin tribes of Italia.
I'm not quite sure what you mean?
The passive cultural conversion would surely be faster among the relatively small Greek poleis of the Adriatic, than among the populous Oscan and Latin tribes of Italia.
They said more populous, not more dense. The Italian tribes have more people, and those people are more spread out. They're also not Hellenic, so while they still respect the oracle, they're not as likely to pick up the Divine Marriage.
