Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Also 100k words later, ten years have passed since game start

[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

Cavalier said:

I think it a more lasting and important victory to spread the cult of the Divine Marriage further still; and in particular anchoring another major site of the Marriage in Nea Kymai on the other side of the Adriatic provides an avenue for it to spread into Epirus and the tribal Greeks, and from there even into Makedon and northern Hellas. At the very least we can probably anticipate that Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra would rapidly pick up the Divine Marriage from Nea Kymai and this help solidify the entire Adriatic including future colonies in a broader cultural union based on it.

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Eretria Eskhata not always be the spiritual center of our league. The mountain we build is greater than the foundation stones that we lay. We spend and we spend and we spend, and yet talents fill our coffers and merchants fill our harbors and our Agora. We give and we give and we give, and yet we are respected throughout our league. Barbaroi and Hellene alike acknowledge our majesty. To enrich ourselves, we spend talents, to give ourselves respect and majesty, we give out privilege. To acquire loyalty? We give out respect in turn.

What greater glories might the Gods bestow upon us, if we permit this Sibyl, this oracle, the greatest in all of Italia, to pass from our fingers? To seize it not for ourselves, but to permit it to spread the Divine Marriage throughout all of Italia, throughout all of Greece? What mighty tree of Athene would we plant?

We come to the crossroads yet again. Let us choose the wise course, and permit the Sibyl to venture forth to join the people of kymai in their new home. Kymai will be a part of our league, how greater then would we become, to have such a storied city subordinate beneath our wise and bountiful yoke? A city in which one touched by the Gods yet dwells?

After all, even as Gela is the spiritual heart of Sicily, it is darkened by the looming shadow of Syrakousai.

So says I, Arkadios the Merchant Captain, son of Arkadios the Fisherman.

Cavalier said:

I think it a more lasting and important victory to spread the cult of the Divine Marriage further still; and in particular anchoring another major site of the Marriage in Nea Kymai on the other side of the Adriatic provides an avenue for it to spread into Epirus and the tribal Greeks, and from there even into Makedon and northern Hellas. At the very least we can probably anticipate that Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra would rapidly pick up the Divine Marriage from Nea Kymai and this help solidify the entire Adriatic including future colonies in a broader cultural union based on it.

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The way I see it, there are more ways to spread the cult (the stadium comes to mind) than there are ways to retain our influence over it.

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
The reason I do not trust allowing the oracle from doing her job from Eretria is the still lacking cultural works in the city itself with the line of Aristedes doing the good work of bring nonboorish culture to our theater. Maybe the demes or the Grand Matis should think of plans to elevate the artist and bring further kleos towards them so that our citizens would be spoiled for choice in the coming generations without the crutch of thieves.
So says Alexandros son of Alexios

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

Admiral Skippy said:

Ausculos is worth watching, but he is not some kind of dire threat to Eretria. We've already seen what happens when he tries to exploit us being at war with a major power, and we pretty much destroyed his ambitions just by peeling two cities off of his coalition.

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While this is true it's also worth considering what this cost us. Because of his desire to harm Eretria, and the opportunism he showed, we were forced to send our Xenoparakletor into Dauni lands rather than to Metapontion which led to the early end of the war. Now while the war still ended in a satisfactory way (some people might even have prefered that ending that a potentially greater victory) it still shows the damage he can do to us by forcing us to split our focus in a war, any war.

The danger the Dauni present, and the damage they can do to us, is not something we can underestimate. Nor in my mind can the value of buffer vassal kingdoms on every border be understated.

Cetashwayo said:

Now let me speak to this matter. The Metoikoi are not citizens, but they are Eretrians. Some do not understand this. Following the success of this Metic assembly, a group of hooligans calling themselves Sons of Eretria have taken to assaulting an elderly Metic man.

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That's quite worrying. I thought it would take at least a year or two for the bitterness amongst the citizens due to the, in my view, mismanagement of the Metic situation to lead to violence. Hopefully it doesn't escalate any further.


[X] [Motion] Status Quo. The Xenoparakletor will choose whoever they wish to accompany them on foreign missions.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

The situation with the Xenoparakletor is unfortunate. While I think it does indeed need reform both of the user motions are sub-optimal - although the extra oversight added to Phokion's Amendmen certainly improves it from the original - and so I'd rather reject them both and attempt to reform the Office properly at a later time than to pass one of these reforms now and then have to try and fix them in the future. Better to reform the office once and do it right.

Of course, the way in which the foreign missions are selected will affect what the best solution is so I'd prefer to see how people vote on that first as well. Personally, I think the flexibility provided by being able to select a mission from one of the losing platforms is massively valuable and I can't see any benefit in getting rid of it. Even if it means losing a policy from the electoral victor.

The Oracle is a really tough choice... The benefits of both are obvious and considerable.

[x] [Motion] Leander's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have two deputies explicitly subordinate to them drawn from the two losing candidates.
x] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[x] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[x] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[x] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[x] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

New
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment.The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

Man. I was already worried about the kymai colony, letting them potentially become the center of the divine marriage in the future might be too much.

We have shit cultural influence, and it doesn't look like we are going to build the stadium anytime soon, considering the state of our income, so I would rather not miss this chance.

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

I am more concerned with spreading our culture than having an iron grip upon it. Besides, we can continue to build bigger and bigger temples, I am especially waiting for the moment we can increase the size of the Temple of the Divine Union again, the Nea Kymai cannot compete with us in such a fashion.

[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[x] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

ALanos said:

The reason I do not trust allowing the oracle from doing her job from Eretria is the still lacking cultural works in the city itself with the line of Aristedes doing the good work of bring nonboorish culture to our theater. Maybe the demes or the Grand Matis should think of plans to elevate the artist and bring further kleos towards them so that our citizens would be spoiled for choice in the coming generations without the crutch of thieves.
So says Alexandros son of Alexios

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Artists require inspiration. While Great Works and Festivals surely assist their muses, they cannot compare to one who is as touched by the Gods as a Sibyl is. So if we send the Sibyl off with Kymaians, when the poems are written and the plays are acted out, the central setting will be Nea Kymai rather than Eretria Eshkata.

I'm inclined to give the Oracle to Kymai. Without immigration to lend the city a more Epulian flavor, I would tend to prefer converting the existing citizens to bring them closer. Plus, having a cult right there spreading our ideas would do wonders for spreading the Divine Marriage among the neighbors who still seem to be rather leery of it.

[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].

[X] [Oligarchs] We cannot allow the oligarchy's supporters to make the journey [Oligarchic supporters will depart to Sikeliote League].

[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].

[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].

[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

Kipeci said:

I'm inclined to give the Oracle to Kymai. Without immigration to lend the city a more Epulian flavor, I would tend to prefer converting the existing citizens to bring them closer. Plus, having a cult right there spreading our ideas would do wonders for spreading the Divine Marriage among the neighbors who still seem to be rather leery of it.

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The people of Nea Kymai will still presumably have some respect for their oracle, and I can see a lot being converted from that alone (though to be fair I can also see it producing a group that actively blames the cult for stealing their oracle).

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

racnor said:

The way I see it, there are more ways to spread the cult (the stadium comes to mind) than there are ways to retain our influence over it.

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I mean TBH if this ends with Alexander the Great spreading the word of the Divine Marriage across Asia and irrevocably altering cultural history that's a bigger win to me than maintaining control of the cult.

[x] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[x] [Missions] Focused diplomacy prioritizing a clear direction and coherent strategy over flexibility [3 missions from winning Demos per term].
[x] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[x] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
[x] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[x] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

racnor said:

The people of Nea Kymai will still presumably have some respect for their oracle, and I can see a lot being converted from that alone (though to be fair I can also see it producing a group that actively blames the cult for stealing their oracle).

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This is set up as a choice for a reason, I think it unlikely that we're going to get the benefits of converting them along with their oracle if it's in fact no longer their oracle. Certainly I don't see these concepts spreading in strength around the other side of the Adriatic if we forsake the option of putting a cultic center there.

Cavalier said:

I mean TBH if this ends with Alexander the Great spreading the word of the Divine Marriage across Asia and irrevocably altering cultural history that's a bigger win to me than maintaining control of the cult.

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Yeah, and if we eat Rome and become the new Rome that would be a really big win too. Let's stay grounded, please.

[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].

[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

DkArthas said:

Man. I was already worried about the kymai colony, letting them potentially become the center of the divine marriage in the future might be too much.

We have shit cultural influence, and it doesn't look like we are going to build the stadium anytime soon, considering the state of our income, so I would rather not miss this chance.

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Our very first great work pick was the culture option of building a gigantic temple to the Divine Marriage and restructuring our hill, we even spent an extra year making it more fancy, so I don't think our cultural influence is nil. I find it rather unlikely that one ramshackle just created city would yank that carpet out from under us just because they have a converted oracle. I'm perfectly fine with spreading out a bit so that we can influence people near us and get more buy-in on our strange oaths in the future, anyway, it doesn't matter how built up in dedication you are to the one idea if no one else cares.

Kipeci said:

Our very first great work pick was the culture option of building a gigantic temple to the Divine Marriage and restructuring our hill, we even spent an extra year making it more fancy, so I don't think our cultural influence is nil. I find it rather unlikely that one ramshackle just created city would yank that carpet out from under us just because they have a converted oracle. I'm perfectly fine with spreading out a bit so that we can influence people near us and get more buy-in on our strange oaths in the future, anyway, it doesn't matter how built up in dedication you are to the one idea if no one else cares.

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Comparatively speaking, that converted Oracle could make all the difference, for she lends legitimacy to the city she is present in as she is seen as someone who can hear the voice of the Gods. Also, the Sibyl of Kymai is renowned throughout Italia and Sicilia, across multiple cultures. From what we've seen of the interactions we've had with other powers in the region, even though we've been here for some time, the Divine Marriage is still seen as somewhat of an oddity, if it is known about at all.