Leukos:

Why would the Neakymaians consider Epulians as thieves, when Epulians have taken nothing from them? They ask to be allowed to decide who will and will not be a citizen of Kymai, not because they view us as thieves, but because we are not Kymaians, as surely as they are not Eretrians.

When the Eretrians first came to Epulia, they decreed that all who had landed with the fleet would be citizens. Suppose that the Athenians had aided the fleet, but imposed their own version of the Law of Linos upon the first Eretrians. All might have been different. Eretria would have been flooded with others, men who knew not of the Divine Marriage, who did not see the relationship between the aristoi and the common man as Drako did, who did not respect trade not as our great merchants did, who might have raised up tyrants or split the city into stasis, or done other, stranger things we cannot now imagine. The city might have starved, or thrived. But it would not have been Eretria.

That is what these imagined, Athenians of another life might have taken from us.

But in this life that is, they took no such thing. We do not consider them thieves. Why would the Kymaians see us in any other way, when we do not take this from them?

...

And why would they consider Epulians beneath themselves, any more than the Eretrians would treat a Tarentine with scorn when he walks among us?

A new city, built on the bare rock and cleared out of unoccupied land, can accept any man as a citizen, but a city that has stood for a generation is one whose citizens are a firm and established band. But when a city reaches a proper age of years, and is considered grown, we do not ask it to open its gates to admit foreigners as citizens against their will.

Tiny Ankon was made an exception to this, as it is still so young. None of the other League cities were asked to do so, as they are not. Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros will not be asked to do so, as they are not.

So the question becomes, is Kymai a new city, or an old one? Is the city of Kymai destroyed, with the Kymaians now homeless men who happen to arrive on a foreign shore, forced to accept any custom of that shore's people as the price of their salvation? Or is the city of Kymai to survive, having been rescued from destruction by our strength and magnanimity?

Is the site of Nea Kymai a new colony and new city that never existed before? Or is it the new site of the old city of Kymai?
And yet you would open a gate we can not close. If noble Kymai must live on lest it all to be worthless- what of others who seek the prosperity and safety of magnificent Epulia? Our ways are not the ways of barbaroi, there are far too many poli to know them all by name. To know how the Akarnians are distributed amongst their fair poli, to know that any would be colonists don't come in their motley thousands and claim that their polis, not matter how small or unknown to us is sacrosanct. That they do not come to start a new life for themselves in fair Epulia, but to start their existing life anew? Can we deny them knowing we could not bring ourselves to deny the Kymaians? Can we decry them for the audacity to have such civic virtue as to seek the continuation of their polis? A thousand possibilities, and a dozen poli neither I nor you can name- can we embrace hypocrisy and refuse them, or can we indulge them at our magnificence and see the league of brotherhood we have fought and died for wither in the face of their 'rights' to maintain the continuity of their polis. No kindness, no matter how grand or impressive ought ignore the precedent it sets, doubly so when the kindness is one brought over the abrogation of law.

Does not the farmer have fears that the barbaroi might steal away with his crops? No matter how banal these concerns are today the memory lingers. The memory of the menace beyond our walls we have now yoked can be a frightful thing. How frightful the memories of barbaroi, xenos from hinterlands beyond the sight of the polis, descending on grand and beautiful Kymai and driving her to the brink. To see one's fellow citizens starve and waste away as the chattering horde lurks beyond the gates. How might that memory remain once one is whisked to a strange land and a strange people? How might those strange people remain strange, if one lets the memory poison one against them? How might the opportunity for well wishes and good feeling might fall on deaf ears because the cries of battle and desperation ring all the louder still.

Ah, but any virtuous Eretrian knows that the Tarantines were quick to war against us, their former brothers, that they were too blinded by emotion and our percieved betrayal to understand how circumstance forced our hand and in doing so wounded us. A Tarantine is by no means one deserving of contempt, but so too are they a stranger among us, and will remain a stranger because their ways are not our ways and will always remain that way. Because the fleeting meetings of the years is by no means enough to impress on one another our virtues and our vices.

I find it too cruel to save the Kymaians and then to abandon them on the coast of a strange land for their betterment. Nay, I would walk Nea Kymai among them, aid in the raising of their houses, the cutting of their palisade, and the building of their fishing boats. As a neighbor, and one who seeks to embrace them in brotherly love and see that the Nea Kymaians learn of us, and that we learn of them. I must remind this most honored assembly that the work in regaining the glory and magnificence of Kymai does not stop on arrival, just as the arrival of Eretria Eskhata heralded more challenges to come. That we of this great Ekklesia should know better than most that it is in it's people that a polis' meaning lies, it's institutions given weight and meaning by their will and the gods. That more hands will make light of the work before the Nea Kymaians, for you have raised the point of Athenian aid and unwanted intrusion by the Great Owl- but was it not in those heady days that any man who would break ground with you, raise houses with you, and lay the seed of your city's survival was a man most fitting to be embraced as a fellow citizen? How can we spite this tradition, as passed down to our colonies through the Linean Laws in the name of Kymai's traditions and call it good?

So says Philometer, boat builder and son of Nikolaos.
 
And yet you would open a gate we can not close. If noble Kymai must live on lest it all to be worthless- what of others who seek the prosperity and safety of magnificent Epulia? Our ways are not the ways of barbaroi, there are far too many poli to know them all by name. To know how the Akarnians are distributed amongst their fair poli, to know that any would be colonists don't come in their motley thousands and claim that their polis, not matter how small or unknown to us is sacrosanct. That they do not come to start a new life for themselves in fair Epulia, but to start their existing life anew? Can we deny them knowing we could not bring ourselves to deny the Kymaians? Can we decry them for the audacity to have such civic virtue as to seek the continuation of their polis? A thousand possibilities, and a dozen poli neither I nor you can name- can we embrace hypocrisy and refuse them, or can we indulge them at our magnificence and see the league of brotherhood we have fought and died for wither in the face of their 'rights' to maintain the continuity of their polis. No kindness, no matter how grand or impressive ought ignore the precedent it sets, doubly so when the kindness is one brought over the abrogation of law.
OK, speaking OOC here...

I don't even get where this is coming from. There's no commonsense interpretation of what we're doing for Kymai that somehow obliges us to do it for all other endangered poli. Nor is our giving Kymai the chance to found a new Kymai that isn't subject to the Linean Laws somehow preventing anyone else from going to our OTHER Adriatic colonies (we have several) and settling those instead.

I find it too cruel to save the Kymaians and then to abandon them on the coast of a strange land for their betterment. Nay, I would walk Nea Kymai among them, aid in the raising of their houses, the cutting of their palisade, and the building of their fishing boats. As a neighbor, and one who seeks to embrace them in brotherly love and see that the Nea Kymaians learn of us, and that we learn of them. I must remind this most honored assembly that the work in regaining the glory and magnificence of Kymai does not stop on arrival, just as the arrival of Eretria Eskhata heralded more challenges to come. That we of this great Ekklesia should know better than most that it is in it's people that a polis' meaning lies, it's institutions given weight and meaning by their will and the gods. That more hands will make light of the work before the Nea Kymaians, for you have raised the point of Athenian aid and unwanted intrusion by the Great Owl- but was it not in those heady days that any man who would break ground with you, raise houses with you, and lay the seed of your city's survival was a man most fitting to be embraced as a fellow citizen? How can we spite this tradition, as passed down to our colonies through the Linean Laws in the name of Kymai's traditions and call it good?
Leukos:

"Our tradition and our ways, our love of the brotherhood that comes from making a city anew together, are the law in Ankon, in Pharos, in Issa, and no doubt in other cities, cities yet undreamed and unmade. If the ekklesia of Nea Kymai sees fit, they may yet be the law in Nea Kymai. But that is for the ekklesia of Kymai- new or old- to decide, not for us to decide here and now. Not when the decision is contaminated by our self-interest, by the advantages to us of breaking the old ways of Kymai whether its people wish it so or not."
 
Just had an interesting realization, I think I would have supported applying the Linean Laws for any location choice besides the Daorsi harbor (Dubrovnik).
If we had gone with the Island of the Enetoi (Venice), I would've been greatly concerned that, due to great geographical distance and profitable trade routes, Nea Kymai could become too independent from us. The preprogrammed conflict over monopoly profits from Amber wouldn't have helped matters in that case.
If we had gone with the harbor in Histri lands (Pula) also in the northern Adriatic, the same concerns regarding distance would have applied. Although, the close proximity to the vengeful pirates of Liburnia might have actually made the Kymaians more receptive to increased settler numbers.
Instead we are resettling Nea Kymai relatively close to us in the central Adriatic, an area we just started to colonise. Furthermore, we are "inviting" its two future neighbors - Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros - into the Epulian League. With this we have basically maximised our chances for a successful long run cultural integration. If not applying the Linean Laws ever was a viable option, one would be hard pressed to find a more ideal setup for it.
 
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Just had an interesting realization, I think I would have supported applying the Linean Laws for any location choice besides the Daorsi harbor (Dubrovnik).
I'm actually a bit confused about that. The Daorsi are supposedly settled along a river on the map, but the river doesn't seem to meet the sea at the site of OTL Dubrovnik. It looks like Dubrovnik would be smack in the middle between Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros, as you point out.

Is the city site located on the river at its mouth, or is it in the location between the two existing cities?

Instead we are resettling Nea Kymai relatively close to us in the central Adriatic, an area we just started to colonise. Furthermore, we are "inviting" its two future neighbors - Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros - into the Epulian League. With this we have basically maximised our chances for a successful long run cultural integration. If not applying the Linean Laws ever was a viable option, one would be hard pressed to find a more ideal setup for it.
Either way I think this is a good point.
 
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis, wish that this particular debate over Kymai's future with Eretria gets immortalized in plays and in scrolls. So that in the future and in the present all Hellenes and non-Hellenes may know how seriously we take our civic duties. Of how seriously we consider the opinions of our League members. And of how seriously we consider our future.

Not for nothing am I named the most shameless play write in all Eretria! If the Ekklesia crosses my palm with silver, the play would be written. I hope the members of the Ekklesia understand, however, that I do not write for free, my work would be of the usual quality and the comedy fight between the two old men in the third act that has thus far graced all of my plays is necessary to the artistic integrity of the work. Paying audience members won't sit through dramatized political bloviating without some comedy.

Dareios: "If we think having to follow the Linean Laws is a fate akin to slavery or of being robbed, why are we not abolishing them? Let us abolish these laws of theft, these laws that make slaves of us all!"

Quite. The debate leads me to believe that much of the Ekklesia doubts the laws it has passed.

Personally I favour letting Kymai have its own laws. But while I find it unseemly to ask them to move their city and take on our laws in the moment of desperation (I would rather they established themselves firmly and then accepted our laws because we had convinced them of their wisdom). Yet still I find the extreme arguments on both sides abhorrent.

Further, I am concerned about the precedent we set for Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros. Each are also long-established. They will surely use our decision in the case of Kymai to argue that they deserve to have the benefits of membership in our league without having to align their traditions with ours. To deny them something they consider already theirs may cause them to refuse us, and I do not think the liberty of Kymai is worth such a loss.

Perhaps it would be better to call Nea Kymai an ally and only offer them full league membership once their city had been firmly established.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes.
 
Vote called for real in one hour.

Uff. But I dunno how I'll even vote yet!

Also, what exactly are the citizenship laws in our league? I'm sure you must have said, but I seem to have missed it somehow.

I'd be curious to read your sources, they sound interesting, but it sounds like the period you're referring to is the Hellenistic period. Athenai did not sell citizenship during the later classical period and we have records of the citizenship they awarded; it was in the dozens or low hundreds across the entirety of the 4th century BCE until Philip II's victory. Then Athenai lost its independence and its democracy in short order during the early Hellenistic period and never regained a place as a geopolitical actor of any consequence.

I was going off the wikipedia page here. And Philip II trouncing Athens isn't so far in the future... Within a human lifetime of when we are "now" in the quest, unless I've completely messed up my chronology.

fasquardon
 
Uff. But I dunno how I'll even vote yet!

Also, what exactly are the citizenship laws in our league? I'm sure you must have said, but I seem to have missed it somehow.
Our law, the "Linean Law," is that any new city must accept new settlers arriving within the first, uh... 20 or 24 years... as citizens.

This is contrary to the customary practice of the Hellenes, by which only those who go off to found a city in the first wave are citizens of that city.

The original intent was to provide a more open, stable opportunity for metics to resettle in the colonies and become citizens of those League cities.

About 200 more Kymaians (a large fraction of the total that are seriously considering coming with us at this time) will come with us if we exempt Kymai from the Linean Law and let the city of "New Kymai" limit its citizenship to citizens of the "Old Kymai." About 500 LESS Kymaians will want to come with us if we require them to follow the Linean Law, because then they will have to assimilate a large number of strangers, which will tend to dilute the customs and heritage of Old Kymai.

The main argument for imposing the Linean Law on New Kymai is that it will commingle a bunch of Epulian League citizens into the population, making them a less culturally distinct polity, that will be faster-growing if initially much smaller. Thus, they will be easier to more tightly integrate into the League. From what @Cetashwayo says, there is some concern that the other League cities may grumble if we give Kymai an exception, too.

The main argument for NOT imposing the Linean Law on New Kymai is that it will be easier to persuade the Kymaians to settle in a new city that will allow them to preserve their traditions and identity. They will be a larger, if slower-growing polity, a stronger ally if a less tightly integrated one, and we will avoid the impression that we are trying to force our laws and customs and attitudes towards citizenship on their people against their wishes as a price of being saved from the Oscans.
 
Our law, the "Linean Law," is that any new city must accept new settlers arriving within the first, uh... 20 or 24 years... as citizens.

Hm. So since Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be under no obligation to accept new settlers as citizens in either case, and nor would our existing league members, since all are already established?

fasquardon
 
Hm. So since Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be under no obligation to accept new settlers as citizens in either case, and nor would our existing league members, since all are already established?

fasquardon

That would be correct. The law would never pass if that was the case.
 
Hm. So since Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be under no obligation to accept new settlers as citizens in either case, and nor would our existing league members, since all are already established?
Yes. The colony city of Ankon, which was founded during the timeskip from the last game (less than 20 years ago, apparently) was forced to accept new settlers as citizens for a while under the law, though.

Some of our more legalistic posters argue that this sets a "no exceptions" precedent, and it can in fact be expected that Ankon will grumble if we make an exception for Kymai.

I have my own counter-arguments, but I'm trying to keep my presentation of the issue balanced for the moment. You can go back and read my posts if you want, after all.
 
Yes. The colony city of Ankon, which was founded during the timeskip from the last game (less than 20 years ago, apparently) was forced to accept new settlers as citizens for a while under the law, though.

Some of our more legalistic posters argue that this sets a "no exceptions" precedent, and it can in fact be expected that Ankon will grumble if we make an exception for Kymai.

I have my own counter-arguments, but I'm trying to keep my presentation of the issue balanced for the moment. You can go back and read my posts if you want, after all.
I disagree with your stance on Kymian citizens but respect that you're trying to and succeeding at presenting an unbiased account of the two sides. Just wanted to point out that this is the way we should be discussing policy and issues rather than the toxic demonizing and dishonest manner some posters have adapted of late.
 
I disagree with your stance on Kymian citizens but respect that you're trying to and succeeding at presenting an unbiased account of the two sides. Just wanted to point out that this is the way we should be discussing policy and issues rather than the toxic demonizing and dishonest manner some posters have adapted of late.
I mean, to be fair, I'm deliberately censoring my own opinions in this as best I can. It would be almost unnatural for people to debate like this, unless they busted out the kind of stuff the Wright Brothers would do where they'd arbitrarily switch sides in the middle of a debate just for the sake of amity and getting an unbiased resolution.

(or so XKCD tells me)
 
Uff. But I dunno how I'll even vote yet!

Also, what exactly are the citizenship laws in our league? I'm sure you must have said, but I seem to have missed it somehow.



I was going off the wikipedia page here. And Philip II trouncing Athens isn't so far in the future... Within a human lifetime of when we are "now" in the quest, unless I've completely messed up my chronology.

fasquardon
While that's factually true many, many, many things happened in the meantime in the Medditeranean world as a whole and in Hellas in particular.

To use a modern analogy, arguing that because something would be a plausible post-Charonea it would also make sense just before the OTL Peace of Nicias would pretty much be equivalent to arguing that because something is a thing in the 2010's seeing it emerge in the roaring 20's would also automatically make sense.
 
Personally I favour letting Kymai have its own laws. But while I find it unseemly to ask them to move their city and take on our laws in the moment of desperation (I would rather they established themselves firmly and then accepted our laws because we had convinced them of their wisdom). Yet still I find the extreme arguments on both sides abhorrent.

The thing is that the (set of) law(s) we are talking about here isn't the totality of our own Eretrian laws or indeed even one that its applicable to to our city itself but as I understand the law that grants new immigrants citizens status in a new colony for twenty years after its initial founding. So letting it get established and settled before introducing it kinda defeats the point because it seems likely that by the time that would the case the law isn't applicable anymore anyhow.
 
Vote is called. The following votes win:


  • [X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
  • [X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
  • [X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
  • [x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
That would be correct. The law would never pass if that was the case.

Well, in that case, I think I have a vote. :-D


[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

My reasoning:

90 talents to deal with the Metic debt crisis is I believe less politically dangerous than the alternatives. The Drakonid proposal I think runs the risk of working too well and leading to the Metics becoming a stable class of second class citizen for too long. Also, I think it will be more expensive over the long term. Allowing the Metics to elect their own Prytanis when that was the one reform we rejected just seems the most injurious to the Ekklesia's authority. Alleviating the burdens of the tenant farmers seems the best option for me because 1) it stands a chance of winning and 2) it is an opportunity to push back the forces advancing serfdom in Epulia. Serfs are not good for the sort of high-wage high-productivity economy I'd like to foster. Also, as others have pointed out, the money will be going into the hands of citizens.

I don't see any downside to turning Rhegion on Lokri, I opposed the alliance with Krotone in any case and Rhegion rising as a counterweight to Syrakousai sounds good to me.

In the case of Kymai, now that the laws in question have been explained to me, I don't see what all the strife is about. Letting Kymai have its own citizenship law for 20 years seems a small enough concession and in any case, I don't want Nea Kymai to grow too big and powerful. Also insisting they accept colonial law undermines the goal that we are here to take all Kymains to a re-located city. Rhegion may be willing to wait in their humbling of Kymai, but it will come. And I want to make clear to the people of Kymai that we are here to save as many as wish to be saved and that once we're done, what is now Kymai will not be Kymai to us again and further generosity is not something we can afford. So the new city will be Kymai, her laws will be in the hands of her own people, and those who stay behind will be citizens of a city that is none of our beeswax!

The Massapii will of course be our extra mission, as I've promised before.

So votes Kleon son of Aristophanes
 
Well in any case, thanks everyone for a long discussion. I understood it got heated in points, and I take part of the blame for that in not being perhaps as clear as I could have been in the original update. Lesson learned for the future.
 
[] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

Edit: Well, I was a little late.
Adhoc vote count started by ShyGuy on Jul 3, 2019 at 6:33 PM, finished with 6099 posts and 81 votes.
 
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We probably should look into the matter of Ankon's land grabs soon by the way. I'm not convinced by their "everything's well" message, and now Ankon might have even more incentive to passive-aggression acting out by antagonizing the local barbaroi. Granted at some point the new citizens brought in by the Linean laws will outnumber the older ones aggrieved by them, but even the new settlers will have land-hunger and probably be as respectful of the natives as most new Hellene colonists are, ie, not at all.

Regretting not paying more attention to how Ankon was forced under the Linean Laws now...
 
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