Friends, let no one doubt that I once believed this Kumai "rescue" as nothing more but folly and an act of hubris. That we are wasting time on people who are barely our kin. Yet the idea of a Hellene city sacked by barbaroi, and worse of Hellene children to be used as playthings of our inferiors just makes my blood boil! Hence, the call of just letting the Kumaians to their fates since they won't accept our colonial laws is a mark against our own magnanimity! For are we not the greatest city in Italia? Are we not the shining example that all Hellenes should aspire to? Is Eritrea not the most pious and blessed by the gods? I see this "rescue" now as a test of the gods! To show everyone from Carthage to the Meds that we are the exemplar! That we are among the greats! That we are Eretria!


So says I, Kalyx the animal breeder

IC argument, appealing to emotions and IC pride.
 
We are already saving their lives at great cost ti the city, I'll not throw away the bonds of brotherhood in our Epulian League for a few hundred ungrateful men. Kymai is as a drowning man and we offer them a fishing boat to save their lives and feed themselves, instead all I hear is whining about how we should offer them our best trireme. I'll not see Eretria be over generous again and sit idly by as the Kymians try to emulate the metrics in mistaking our generosity for weakness.
 
Hmm...I'm willing to change my vote regards Kymai (Let them have their own laws) in exchange for someone changing their vote into choosing the 90 talent option and for anyone to word a user motion wherein we send ALL our best speakers to Kymai (speakers being everyone that got rewarded for IC speeches in the quest updates) to convince Kymaians of how the Linean law can benefit them and how much more beneficial the effect would be if the entire city of Kymai packs it all up and move to the Adriatic...and won't it be a doozy if Kymai sells the real estate to the Lucanians in exchange for the equivalent number of sheep? One sheep per house? Or per person?

Kymai can sell the sheep to us, we sell the sheep to every one else in the area for profit...we profit!
 
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Hmm...I'm willing to change my vote regards Kymai (Let them have their own laws) in exchange for someone changing their vote into choosing the 90 talent option and for anyone to word a user motion wherein we send ALL our best speakers to Kymai (speakers being everyone that got rewarded for IC speeches in the quest updates) to convince Kymaians of how the Linean law can benefit them and how much more beneficial the effect would be if the entire city of Kymai packs it all up and move to the Adriatic...and won't it be a doozy if Kymai sells the real estate to the Lucanians in exchange for the equivalent number of sheep?

Kymai can sell the sheep to us, we sell the sheep to every one else in the area for profit...we profit!

I'd do that. User motion will need to wait for a day or two, but I've been tossing around an idea for an IC piece anyway.
 
Hmm...I'm willing to change my vote regards Kymai (Let them have their own laws) in exchange for someone changing their vote into choosing the 90 talent option and for anyone to word a user motion wherein we send ALL our best speakers to Kymai (speakers being everyone that got rewarded for IC speeches in the quest updates) to convince Kymaians of how the Linean law can benefit them and how much more beneficial the effect would be if the entire city of Kymai packs it all up and move to the Adriatic...and won't it be a doozy if Kymai sells the real estate to the Lucanians in exchange for the equivalent number of sheep? One sheep per house? Or per person?

Kymai can sell the sheep to us, we sell the sheep to every one else in the area for profit...we profit!

The Lucanians will take it all for the cheap low price of conquest.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Hm. A while back I did some reading up on Athenian Metic relations. In Athens the Metic population wasn't stable and at about this time Athens was using some fairly heavy-handed laws to keep citizen and metic populations as separate classes. I don't much fancy applying Athenian law in Eretria (to be honest, I find it annoying enough at how very Athenian Eretria is, which I kinda understand, given that our sources are so Athens-biased, but still, nuts to Athens). Also, the Athenian system didn't work. The bulk of the Metic population gained citizenship perhaps during this period or perhaps just after, largely it seems through buying citizenship or just bluffing their way through to becoming established citizens (though this latter approach had some risk, it doesn't seem to have had very much risk). And since the average citizen and the average metic were as Athenian as each-other, there's also the risk of citizens being made into metics by the rulings of the court if we did try to enforce such laws in Eretria. After all, if Metics are "faking it" as citizens, then citizens can accuse each other of being fakes in order to settle grudges and hamper business competition...

So to those who are trying to figure out how to stabilize the Eretrian class system, I say it is a doomed effort. Many Metics in Eretria can "pass" as citizens and while the city is smaller than Athens and thus people know each-other, it's still a pretty darn big town and we aren't exactly keeping paperwork on the classes. I'm actually surprised given the high tax disparity that "passing" as citizens hasn't come up as an issue yet.

So, whatever we do now will be but one step in the larger process of managing the change in Eretria's class structure, a thing which is inevitable.

In that context, I find the Drakonid proposal the worst of the lot. If we lower taxes and allow them to buy property, it's embracing the bad aspects of the model of Athens while not embracing the good and really begs the question of why in hades we don't just make those Metics who can buy property citizens. At least the other Demes have proposals that are self-consistent with keeping the Metics as a separate class.

I am not sure yet whether the other concessions may have merit, or whether to vote for outright refusing the Metics. My instinct is to refuse, and to push alternate reforms. But perhaps debt relief or a Metic-elected Prytanis could play a role in a reform process.

fasquardon
 
It is not however more population than Epidauros, and is certainly less than both together. I would not risk endangering the accession of the two new league cities by ripping away the chance for them to colonize the easiest and nearest site, and as Linos says this is a terrible example to set for the league cities by saying that league rules don't apply for Eretria and her endeavors if they don't want it (although they'll be inflicted on you if you go against it and are weak, as with Ankon earlier). Plus, I would contend that even if those 700 were not almost made up through immigration within a mere 25 years, it would be more useful to have it take some citizen immigrants from the local cities. They actually know the local conditions and could serve as an invaluable trove of information to the refugees of Kymai, who have only known very different barbaroi and agriculture in ash-nourished volcanic lands. We want them to land on their feet and not stumble, but if we restrict citizenship to Kymai only then they cannot benefit from this local knowledge.

It was brought up before, but I disagree. The main driver in our immigration is the wage and opportunity available in Eretria, since that's the only city of ours that most have heard of. If we have massive emigration to the colonies from the choice land and opportunities available out there, then that spikes up wages in Eretria as the labor supply becomes less. The high wages drive general migration to our city, and once they arrive and become aware of a good number of the colonial opportunities a good fraction immediately set sail to the colonies. It's a feedback loop that continues as long as we have available land, with the immigration to Eretria being driven by the 'pull' factor of wages towards Eretria. This is most maximized by having desirable colonies hoovering up everyone who thinks they can make a better life from Eretria, that is, a 'push' factor towards the colonies in the form of choice available land. To maximize the pull in, we must maximize the push out; that can be done if we have many attractive spots available (that is, more sites available for colonization) to limit the rate at which any particular one's desirable land is parceled out and provide different circumstances amenable to the whims of the people. For instance, some may prefer island living and others living on a mainland.

Well, that depends on how this choice will affect future turns. I for one expect us to get more, if we have a good start to the negotiations. Otherwise, I suspect we will either be offered less potential freemen over the next turns, or susequent choice for more freemen will be more "expensive" due to us having a worse reputation in Kymai. I also suspect this vote will definitely influence the next Kymai dice roll and enforcing the Linean Laws will not give us any positive modifiers on that.

I just don't see the comparison between Ankon and Kymai. One was a small colony founded by few hundred people from all over the Epulian League, and the other one is a centuries old polis of over twenty thousand people. Yes, the written word of the Linean Laws says that a colony will have to allow settlement for 25 years. However, I simply don't see New Kymai as a colony of Eretria(or the Epulian League). It is a newly arriving member, forced to flee its home due to war and destruction. A fate all Eretrian should sympathise with. If we force the Linean Laws on the Kymaian refugees, then we treat them the same way we treated the citizens of Lykai. Is that the way we want to treat some of our oldest friends in Magna Grecia when they are in times of need? By placing them under our hegemony and destroying their bounds of citizenship? Because that is what Linean Laws do by definition. They make New Kymai a colony of ours, in which every Metic we invite is welcome to settle. An appealing narrative for our grand rescue mission looks different to me.

Regarding the Push-Pull factor:
That is definitely a thing. However I remain unconvinced that not opening up this one settlement site would make a significant impact on the overall inflow of Metics to the Epulian League. For one, we still have a number of free settlement sites in the Adriatic Dodecanese and we are planning for a massive colony push in the northern Adriatic come next election. Among our currently held sites is a natural harbor (Vela Luka) on the same island as Melaina Kerkyra. If anything that will be the location freeman of that polis will be interested. Regarding Epidauros we will have to make sure that they are not forgotten when we negotiate with the Daorsi for land. That said, I'm in general not as worried as you about failing to integrate these two tiny poleis. 1) Obander is very well suited for this task. 2) We should have some land we can offer both of them. 3) Our military might is very much on display after the Battle of Pharos. 4) We are about to deepen relationships with their only available protector, Athens(through Kerkyra).
 
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I don't really like the idea of Nea Kymai being turned into a colony under Eretrian domination because this would be seen as a bad showing towards the rest of Magna Graecia that the only way we would help them is to destroy their institutions and leave the rest who dare to not follow to commit mass suicide if they hate it when the walls of Kymai finally fall. This would be a stain in the city's honor as being too unyielding in such a unique situation would turn us to Athens always weary of the next revolt when we can't control them utterly. This would also be a bad precedent in trying to integrate Taras or forming a league across Magna Graecia with us needing to behave towards equals and or vassals such is Kymai and we should not belittle them as children.
 
I don't really like the idea of Nea Kymai being turned into a colony under Eretrian domination because this would be seen as a bad showing towards the rest of Magna Graecia that the only way we would help them is to destroy their institutions and leave the rest who dare to not follow to commit mass suicide if they hate it when the walls of Kymai finally fall. This would be a stain in the city's honor as being too unyielding in such a unique situation would turn us to Athens always weary of the next revolt when we can't control them utterly. This would also be a bad precedent in trying to integrate Taras or forming a league across Magna Graecia with us needing to behave towards equals and or vassals such is Kymai and we should not belittle them as children.
We are saving Kymai from complete destruction, out of the blue, and offering them a new ready-made home of our own volition. Asking them to thus abide by the few basic rules of our home in return does not exactly seem draconian.
 
Friends, i understand your anger at the temerity of the people of Kymai, yet these people are simply afraid and confused, they need assurances that we will not just let them wither and die. For you see, fearful men oft act foolishly. Supposedly, what if the opposite is true, what if we are besieged by the barbaroi? The city may have not yet fallen though its close, then here comes the people of Kumai out of their own magnanimity giving aid to our beleaguered polis. They offer salvation in another land, yet surely we will be just as skeptical all the same? I also do not see these people as mere numbers on the board but free men with women and children in tow whose future is in our hands.

Yes, we don't want to be seen as weak, that the the metics and the Kymaians cannot dictate terms at us, i know the sentiment. Yet, I believe this is further reason why we should help save as many as we could since we are already strong and magnanimous, that this reflects poorly on them and not on us. That our legend will only grow further for in the act of giving in to their unreasonable demands of wanting to keep their own identity and institutions, we show that we are the better people. That we are strong enough not to see such demand as a hindrance but as a tool which we can use in the world stage for in diversity there is strength!

Sadly, i am not a wordsmith, hence If this does not convince you then maybe @Admiral Skippy whose words convinced me of this Kymaian adventure perish any doubts in the wisdom of saving as many as we can.

So says I, Kalyx the animal breeder.
 
Kymai is not one of our oldest friends. That goes to Taras.
They are not our friends anymore though are they?

We have been in contact with Kymai, a colony of Old Eretria, since OL 289 and have been trading since 296. They also took in the largest share of Eretrian Citizens living abroad after the exodus.

So yes they are our oldest continuous friend in Magna Graecia.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 6:06 AM, finished with 5940 posts and 70 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM, finished with 5957 posts and 73 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 7:48 PM, finished with 5982 posts and 74 votes.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
We are saving Kymai from complete destruction, out of the blue, and offering them a new ready-made home of our own volition. Asking them to thus abide by the few basic rules of our home in return does not exactly seem draconian.
It does when we give help and give them terms that would just humiliate them rather than seeing them as equals because even if they took in refugees from Old Eretria we don't have any sense of gratefulness for what they have done.
 
It does when we give help and give them terms that would just humiliate them rather than seeing them as equals because even if they took in refugees from Old Eretria we don't have any sense of gratefulness for what they have done.

They won't really be humiliated, those that don't want abide by the rules and are to stuck in old ways will stay and those that are willing to live with us and our Leauge side by side in peace and harmony will come along.
 
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This entire approach of "But what do I get out of this?!" is directly undermining the prestige and soft-power benefits that this quest would have brought us.
 
I would prefer the Kymaians to be able to stand proud in recreating their polis as equals than bow low in supplication to their overlords that will engender hatred to those we rescue as they are not individuals we get in the wars of Hellas but rather a polis about to fall from the predations of barbaroi.
 
This entire approach of "But what do I get out of this?!" is directly undermining the prestige and soft-power benefits that this quest would have brought us.

I think it was mentioned that we won't get much prestige out of this?

But more importantly even if we get a little prestige it's not worth undermining iner working and prestige of our Leauge. Even if Eretria is main power in the league much of its power strives from the fact that it is not an overlord that is willing to use Leauge for its gains and from the fact that we are willing to treat everyone fairly. So how will it work if we suddenly bend the rules of the Leauge for our own gains. No amount of prestige is worth the loss of our credibility in the league and through it among the Helens.

If we wish to invite other polis in the Leauge we must show them that they will be respected there and ignoring the rules of entire Leauge for our own wishes is no way to do it.
 
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They are not our friends anymore though are they?

We have been in contact with Kymai, a colony of Old Eretria, since OL 289 and have been trading since 296. They also took in the largest share of Eretrian Citizens living abroad after the exodus.

So yes they are our oldest continuous friend in Magna Graecia.

We're currently rebuilding that relationship with Taras. And given that Cetashwayo didn't characterize Kymai as such in that last update I'm loathe to give them the courtesy.
 
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[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, have been convinced by the reasoning of other citizens on the necessity of having Nea-Kymai follow the same laws as the rest of the Epulian League. As such, I now revote my stance on Kymai!

I'd do that. User motion will need to wait for a day or two, but I've been tossing around an idea for an IC piece anyway.

Err...I cooked something up. Tell me if it's ok or if I need to reword it.

Also I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, propose the following motion to the citizens of Eretria Eschate!


[X] USER MOTION: Eretria shall send all the Citizens who had been given rewards for their eloquent speeches and arguments to Kymai for the sole mission of convincing the Kymaians, whether citizen or metic, of the benefits of the Linean Law as it would apply to their new site in the Adriatic Sea. They shall emphasize the sheer numbers of freemen they could gain from interested potential citizens if their entire city goes to the Adriatic as one undivided polis because of Kymai's prestige and because of safety in numbers. They shall emphasize that by numbers alone, if they migrate to the Adriatic as an undivided polis and follow the Linean Law they would quickly catapult to one of the three most powerful polis in the Adriatic, after us and Kerkyra. They shall emphasize that if they are metics here in Kymai, in the Adriatic they will be citizens thanks to the Linean Law. Emphasize that in the Adriatic they won't stand alone against non-Hellenes if they were attacked but they would be among friends, since they would be a full member of the Epulian League and friends with non-Hellene allies of the Epulian League because of Eretria Eschate. They shall emphasize that the Sybil of Kymai would be more famous the nearer they are to other Hellenes and Hellenized non-Hellenes, which would bring more money to the polis of Kymai. And most importantly of all, explain and profusely apologize to Kymai that our hands are tied because the Linean Law had been passed by majority vote by the members of the Epulian League and tell them we are willing to support them asking for a reasonable amendment to the Linean Law once they have moved to the Adriatic.

Now, who shall lift my old and small rock!
 
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[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Adhoc vote count started by Spazerr on Jul 2, 2019 at 7:27 AM, finished with 5948 posts and 71 votes.
 
@Cetashwayo What are the League members more nuanced opinions on us (not) applying the Linean Laws to New Kymai?
Since there is no talk about a veto at the next Synedrion, I suspect their opposition is either not strong enough to veto, or there are enough members who would support the exception.
We're currently rebuilding that relationship with Taras. And given that Cetashwayo didn't characterize Kymai as such in that last update I'm loathe to give them the courtesy.
Your bar for friendship seems oddly low for Taras and quite high for Kymai. Taras has been regional rival for decades, one we just recently fought in a war. We have no specific information what happend between us and Kymai during the timeskip, however before that we always enjoyed warm relations only tempered by our geographical distance. I guess we will have to disagree on what makes someone a friend of Eretria.
 
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

The situation with the Metics is unfortunate but was entirely foreseeable, in fact several people said exactly this would happen during the last Metic Assembly. The problem then wasn't that any of the suggestions were individually terrible ideas (in fact they were all good) but that by giving them so much at once we would set their expectations unrealistically high. And now that we've done so once they're explicitly pushing their luck and asking for more than is reasonable.

Now I'm not saying that these requests are inherently unreasonable but in this situation, they are because this isn't just about what reforms are granted but how it's done. Are they forced from the citizenry under the threat of civil unrest or reforms jointly enacted? Politics is more than policy.

Paying off their debts is the best option right now because while it only delays their demands, that in itself is a victory. It gives the Metics a 'win' without a radical concession, it shows them they can't just make unreasonable demands one after the other because the citizens will push back, but it's not a slap in the face. The Assembly rejects their unreasonable demands but generously grants a reasonable request that the Metics didn't even make. This helps reset the Metic/Citizen relationship and in 8 years time at the next Assembly, even if they make these exact same requests, they'll be more acceptable because at the last Assembly (this one) they won't have been given a massive concession.


As for Kymai, I'm undecided on that. There are good arguments for both options.
 
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