Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
What? I didn't say they would get better wages and circumstances. I said that the situation will equalize and prevent mass emigration.
Let me say that if you refuse their demands it's going to cause problems. That's obvious.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Well obviously.
Zeitgeist Blue
Currently Made of Metal
- Location
- Manila, Philippines, GMT +8
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
The cost of labour due to the halt in the migrant flood is, as you specify here, going to drive the price of labour for the remaining Metics up, they'll get better pay. And better pay normally leads to better circumstances.
However, I am more than aware they'd be pissed by the refusal and this would take years, and even when they get better labour costs, they'd still be pissed off.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
On Kymai:
I recognize that a lot of people are wanting to maximize the number of Kymaians we're getting out of this, but it would really be shooting ourselves in the foot right now to be inconsistent in our League practices. We're right now looking to induct Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra to the league, tempting them with all these wonderful league privileges; they are the only established Greek cities in the area, and without them the new Kymai would have only the more distant and island-based Pharos and Issa for support, and no example of mainland-based Epidauros to emulate. If we allow Kymai its own laws, then we're telling the folks at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros that they're getting shut out of the project at this awesome harbor right next to them. Without the ability to have citizen contacts there, they're much less able to have strong trade relations with each other and a good deal of the benefit dries up to having this big city founded right in their neck of the woods. Plus, we'd be letting Kymai have its own laws in an atmosphere with substantially less influence from us at the very periphery of our territory, lessening our connection. The potential to cause trouble throughout our league and discourage the new additions we hope for at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros are not worth the 700 citizens we'd gain otherwise, particularly since we'd be having weaker future immigration for 25 years.
Let me give an example case to demonstrate this. Let's conservatively say that the growth rates over the 25 years are 2% if we have them keep our laws, 1% if they don't. If they have our laws, the potential freemen drop to only 2000 as of yet, while if they keep their own it rises to 2700. In that case:
2000 * 1.02^25 = ~3281
2700 * 1.01^25 = ~3462
This is a very minimal difference which would be more than made up for by the swaying of cities to our league- or, put the other way, their rejecting it for it not being beneficial enough. I beg us not to sow seeds of discord by creating an inconsistent league for the sake of what would end up as less than a couple hundred extra population, all of our league cities can agree on being mad about not having influence in new cities. Particularly since this powerful new city would have allegiance only to Eretria through establishment ties and gratitude, and nothing really binding it to the rest of the league such as citizens descended from the rest of the league cities.
On Rhegion:
I urge the highest priority towards encouraging them to antagonize Lokri Epixephyrii. Consider what the danger is for each of the targets.
If Rhegion attacks the cities of the Lucanian coast such as Hyele, this will doubtlessly weaken them; recall how an ambitious Lucanian chief took one night's inattention at the walls due to civil disorder to sack Hyele's neighbor Poseidonia and to create it anew as Paestum. Those cities have little room for error, being adjacent to the seat of Lucanian power, and any distractions caused by Hellenic infighting render them as vulnerable targets to Lucanians encouraged by that chief's example; furthermore, this would damage our already weakened relations with Thurii.
If they successfully bargain the Sikeliote League to have a greater share of the Sikel's land and associated slaves and serfs (which also seems like a potential point of contention with the Sikeliote League, jealous as they are of Rhegion's position and riches), then we infuriate Taras. Taras has a lucrative deal for slave trading with the Sikeliote League and Syrakousai, while Rhegion has slammed shut the door to Tarentine traders; thus, it is in their interest that the Sikeliote League controls as many slaves as possible such that they have access to these slaves. We want this to be the case, too, because if the majority of the slaves are in the Sikeliote League's hands then it has more importance in Tarentine trade than Syrakousai and will thus cause the Tarentines to think twice about taking the side of Syrakousai in future wars of Sicily. We just went through quite a hassle to set relations right with Taras and trade is the foundation of their peace faction, causing harm to the interests of the peace faction will make it much easier for them to reconsider our relations. With how our burgeoning Adriatic empire and ties with Athens will likely to offend Korinthos and how Syrakousai is permanently set to bay for our blood, it would be in our best interests not to offend Taras and risk potentially all three of those powerful cities working against us without the corresponding alliances to back us up.
Aggression against Lokri Epixephyrii seems to be the best of the available choices. It is no friend of ours and holds no important border with powerful barbaroi we would wish not to empower; to the contrary, it has been a friend of Syrakousai which is now distracted by the prosecution of the Sacred War against the Sikels. The only other party which is upset by this is Krotone on account of it desiring to reap the full benefit of crushing Lokri Epixephyrii. To which I say, it should endeavor to also take advantage of this opportunity; taking some of the southern cities while Western Lokri is being menaced would provide it with additional strength with which to face the Bruttii. Consider that if the city starts trying to compete with Rhegion, it would doubtlessly try to influence cities of the coast such as Terina and Temesa so that it could provide an alternate route for Tyrrhenian trade to flow through. This inherently surrounds the Bruttii, opening a path as well for Krotone to travel around and attack the city of the Bruttii at Consentia rather than the exercise in futility of challenging the mountains currently available to them. I have always preferred partnership with Rhegion to that of Krotone, and should Krotone be so offended then we should make up with refocused joint efforts to weaken the Brutii, having seen what the effects of ignoring the Oscan tribes while they rise in power are. This would also provide an opportunity to benefit Thurii as conflict with the Bruttii could net them Besidiae and a bit more of the plains surrounding them, the bulk of which lies between two rivers.
On Metics:
We are still seeking to support our league by vacuuming in a great number of Metics of a finer character, with which we may make excellent artists capable of producing luxuries in Eretria or craftsmen citizens in the colonies; to encourage them our way rather than the opened Sicilian lands, it is best to give way on at least one of their demands. I say to grant the Metics their Prytanis, so as not to endanger the city's position with finances or unrest at this critical juncture. If the Metics utterly despise us for rejecting their demands, they may carry on the sentiment even as they fill out our colonies or seek to use their power to ensure their demands rather than merely asking. Give them the means for a better manner to keep on asking us rather than the capacity to buy out our own citizens and provide them with greater economic clout.
On Mission:
I agree with Obander here. I think that we should take the Exorian foreign slate in the next election to finally tie up a lot of the barbaroi reform without the relatively trash options like trying to ally the Histri in a more integrated action rather than hodge-podging it, and people will probably want to lean that way on account of the poor performance of our barbaroi levies as well as the huge desire to integrate the Messapii. In the mean time, though it's really best to stamp out future fires before they start to really smolder and spark. While I think it not only possible but probable for our league to win against the Picentini should they come to blows with Ankon, hostility being engendered in the eight or so years we're likely to be distracted if we don't pick this now mean that the easiest option for expansion up there is off the table. 40 talents and no blood is much easier than paying the same to send hundreds or thousands of men up there while neglecting one of the many other uses we could have for such armies, and what's more is that the colonies created peacefully don't have their growth and capabilities limited by native raids as was the case in the early years for a bunch of our colonies near the Dauni. It may need to come to blood eventually, but I'd rather that occur when Ankon is swole and has a bunch of tiny cities in the area to provide it with local backup rather than having to call us down; we're a mighty hammer indeed, but we can't be around to help all the time for minor incursions like small local colonies founded off the purchased land could.
For our long-term survival, this area is critical. Rome bought nigh-limitless manpower through its victories over the Etruscans and the vast plains of northern central Italy to support tremendous appetites. We are a bit unfortunate in that the geography of Italy renders our side usually more mountainous, but the Picentini hold an abundance of flat and excellent land. If we can bring it under cultivation and soon, we will not only be stronger all the quicker in the northern Adriatic to support our trade but will secure another region beneficial to our agriculture, more so that the hills around Pylona or the Adriatic islands. It seems unreasonable that we should let Ankon be the weak point in our league, with no friends nearby and mounting tensions with the huge locals, when it may be cultivated as a valuable source of priceless Murex and is the foundation of our immensely profitable trade with the northern Etruscans as well as the Enetoi.
[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
I recognize that a lot of people are wanting to maximize the number of Kymaians we're getting out of this, but it would really be shooting ourselves in the foot right now to be inconsistent in our League practices. We're right now looking to induct Epidauros and Melaina Kerkyra to the league, tempting them with all these wonderful league privileges; they are the only established Greek cities in the area, and without them the new Kymai would have only the more distant and island-based Pharos and Issa for support, and no example of mainland-based Epidauros to emulate. If we allow Kymai its own laws, then we're telling the folks at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros that they're getting shut out of the project at this awesome harbor right next to them. Without the ability to have citizen contacts there, they're much less able to have strong trade relations with each other and a good deal of the benefit dries up to having this big city founded right in their neck of the woods. Plus, we'd be letting Kymai have its own laws in an atmosphere with substantially less influence from us at the very periphery of our territory, lessening our connection. The potential to cause trouble throughout our league and discourage the new additions we hope for at Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros are not worth the 700 citizens we'd gain otherwise, particularly since we'd be having weaker future immigration for 25 years.
Let me give an example case to demonstrate this. Let's conservatively say that the growth rates over the 25 years are 2% if we have them keep our laws, 1% if they don't. If they have our laws, the potential freemen drop to only 2000 as of yet, while if they keep their own it rises to 2700. In that case:
2000 * 1.02^25 = ~3281
2700 * 1.01^25 = ~3462
This is a very minimal difference which would be more than made up for by the swaying of cities to our league- or, put the other way, their rejecting it for it not being beneficial enough. I beg us not to sow seeds of discord by creating an inconsistent league for the sake of what would end up as less than a couple hundred extra population, all of our league cities can agree on being mad about not having influence in new cities. Particularly since this powerful new city would have allegiance only to Eretria through establishment ties and gratitude, and nothing really binding it to the rest of the league such as citizens descended from the rest of the league cities.
On Rhegion:
I urge the highest priority towards encouraging them to antagonize Lokri Epixephyrii. Consider what the danger is for each of the targets.
If Rhegion attacks the cities of the Lucanian coast such as Hyele, this will doubtlessly weaken them; recall how an ambitious Lucanian chief took one night's inattention at the walls due to civil disorder to sack Hyele's neighbor Poseidonia and to create it anew as Paestum. Those cities have little room for error, being adjacent to the seat of Lucanian power, and any distractions caused by Hellenic infighting render them as vulnerable targets to Lucanians encouraged by that chief's example; furthermore, this would damage our already weakened relations with Thurii.
If they successfully bargain the Sikeliote League to have a greater share of the Sikel's land and associated slaves and serfs (which also seems like a potential point of contention with the Sikeliote League, jealous as they are of Rhegion's position and riches), then we infuriate Taras. Taras has a lucrative deal for slave trading with the Sikeliote League and Syrakousai, while Rhegion has slammed shut the door to Tarentine traders; thus, it is in their interest that the Sikeliote League controls as many slaves as possible such that they have access to these slaves. We want this to be the case, too, because if the majority of the slaves are in the Sikeliote League's hands then it has more importance in Tarentine trade than Syrakousai and will thus cause the Tarentines to think twice about taking the side of Syrakousai in future wars of Sicily. We just went through quite a hassle to set relations right with Taras and trade is the foundation of their peace faction, causing harm to the interests of the peace faction will make it much easier for them to reconsider our relations. With how our burgeoning Adriatic empire and ties with Athens will likely to offend Korinthos and how Syrakousai is permanently set to bay for our blood, it would be in our best interests not to offend Taras and risk potentially all three of those powerful cities working against us without the corresponding alliances to back us up.
Aggression against Lokri Epixephyrii seems to be the best of the available choices. It is no friend of ours and holds no important border with powerful barbaroi we would wish not to empower; to the contrary, it has been a friend of Syrakousai which is now distracted by the prosecution of the Sacred War against the Sikels. The only other party which is upset by this is Krotone on account of it desiring to reap the full benefit of crushing Lokri Epixephyrii. To which I say, it should endeavor to also take advantage of this opportunity; taking some of the southern cities while Western Lokri is being menaced would provide it with additional strength with which to face the Bruttii. Consider that if the city starts trying to compete with Rhegion, it would doubtlessly try to influence cities of the coast such as Terina and Temesa so that it could provide an alternate route for Tyrrhenian trade to flow through. This inherently surrounds the Bruttii, opening a path as well for Krotone to travel around and attack the city of the Bruttii at Consentia rather than the exercise in futility of challenging the mountains currently available to them. I have always preferred partnership with Rhegion to that of Krotone, and should Krotone be so offended then we should make up with refocused joint efforts to weaken the Brutii, having seen what the effects of ignoring the Oscan tribes while they rise in power are. This would also provide an opportunity to benefit Thurii as conflict with the Bruttii could net them Besidiae and a bit more of the plains surrounding them, the bulk of which lies between two rivers.
On Metics:
We are still seeking to support our league by vacuuming in a great number of Metics of a finer character, with which we may make excellent artists capable of producing luxuries in Eretria or craftsmen citizens in the colonies; to encourage them our way rather than the opened Sicilian lands, it is best to give way on at least one of their demands. I say to grant the Metics their Prytanis, so as not to endanger the city's position with finances or unrest at this critical juncture. If the Metics utterly despise us for rejecting their demands, they may carry on the sentiment even as they fill out our colonies or seek to use their power to ensure their demands rather than merely asking. Give them the means for a better manner to keep on asking us rather than the capacity to buy out our own citizens and provide them with greater economic clout.
On Mission:
I agree with Obander here. I think that we should take the Exorian foreign slate in the next election to finally tie up a lot of the barbaroi reform without the relatively trash options like trying to ally the Histri in a more integrated action rather than hodge-podging it, and people will probably want to lean that way on account of the poor performance of our barbaroi levies as well as the huge desire to integrate the Messapii. In the mean time, though it's really best to stamp out future fires before they start to really smolder and spark. While I think it not only possible but probable for our league to win against the Picentini should they come to blows with Ankon, hostility being engendered in the eight or so years we're likely to be distracted if we don't pick this now mean that the easiest option for expansion up there is off the table. 40 talents and no blood is much easier than paying the same to send hundreds or thousands of men up there while neglecting one of the many other uses we could have for such armies, and what's more is that the colonies created peacefully don't have their growth and capabilities limited by native raids as was the case in the early years for a bunch of our colonies near the Dauni. It may need to come to blood eventually, but I'd rather that occur when Ankon is swole and has a bunch of tiny cities in the area to provide it with local backup rather than having to call us down; we're a mighty hammer indeed, but we can't be around to help all the time for minor incursions like small local colonies founded off the purchased land could.
For our long-term survival, this area is critical. Rome bought nigh-limitless manpower through its victories over the Etruscans and the vast plains of northern central Italy to support tremendous appetites. We are a bit unfortunate in that the geography of Italy renders our side usually more mountainous, but the Picentini hold an abundance of flat and excellent land. If we can bring it under cultivation and soon, we will not only be stronger all the quicker in the northern Adriatic to support our trade but will secure another region beneficial to our agriculture, more so that the hills around Pylona or the Adriatic islands. It seems unreasonable that we should let Ankon be the weak point in our league, with no friends nearby and mounting tensions with the huge locals, when it may be cultivated as a valuable source of priceless Murex and is the foundation of our immensely profitable trade with the northern Etruscans as well as the Enetoi.
[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
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- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
In light of the tax break being after the census, I think I'm going to vote with that, it gives us time to mitigate the income issue, with for example the trade route mission.
I also think metics being able to have property within the city wall could generate economic development and increase ties to the city.
I also think metics being able to have property within the city wall could generate economic development and increase ties to the city.
- Location
- Luton Airport
The Prytanis seems more in keeping with Eretrian custom (giving the League a strategos and such) and is likely to be one we can wrap in ceremony to somewhat restrict its immediate impact.
@Cetashwayo what terms are the Metics looking for on the Prytanis proposal? Can we make it that said notable has to be invited to specific meetings of the polis (say a once a month hearing of the metics) , rather than just turning up when they feel like it?
@Cetashwayo what terms are the Metics looking for on the Prytanis proposal? Can we make it that said notable has to be invited to specific meetings of the polis (say a once a month hearing of the metics) , rather than just turning up when they feel like it?
- Location
- Central Europe
"I'm still torn regarding the proposals brought before us by the Metic Pyrtanis. On one hand I agree with those that say they overreached. For them to repay our kindness by asking much of us in these crucial times, can make one doubt their loyalty to the city that nurtures them. That said, I will not go so far as call them children in need of punishment. Rejecting them now might change their attitudes for the better, however it might also do the reverse. We already have much our plate with the rescue of Kymai and the construction of our fleet. Especially the expansion of rowers required for the later would be susceptible to blockade by the Metics. So let me talk about the alternatives. The one I dislike the most is the debt relief. For it interferes with our current goals, it is unlikely to solve much and it altogether simply feels like a bribe. The two issues not taken up now would simply reappear next time around. The tax break, especially with the delay to its introduction, is less disruptive to our expedition to Kymai. By the time it would be implemented the harbour should be almost finished and, with the right Demoi in charge of foreign policy, we will have the chance to expand our trade relations over the subsequent four years. Allowing for a non-citizen Pyrtanis bypasses the economic considerations and instead opens the way for broad changes to how the Metics in our city are seen. This choice holds much potential, however I suspect it is also the least popular among our own citizen.
The choice for tribute from the Messapii seems to be almost unanimous, so I will not comment on it further. Similarly, I will not argue too strongly against the Rhegian focus on Lokri. I personally favour taking the chance to nip any issues between our two closest partners in the region in the bud. The focus on Lokri, while sound in the short run will only mean more issues with Krotone and the Sikeliote League in the future. The latter of which is our most important counterweight to Syrakousai. Let me finish by reiterating that this is not question of who we wish to go to war with. We should not need to cower out of fear over the displeasure of Taras due to trade issues on Sicily.
Last, but not least, I must strongly argue against the current movement to enforce the Linean Laws on New Kymai. This is an old polis, with an established core of citizens, we should not force upon them, what we originally intended for Eretrian colonies full of Metics from all corners of Hellas. This is the crucial first step in our pitch to the freemen of Kymai for a new Adriatic settlement. Let us start these talks with an open hand to our brothers in need. I am sure that starting on a positive note will have long running consequences on decisions down the line. Also I disagree with my fellow citizen (@Kipeci), who argues that Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be happy about our enforcement of the Linean Laws. No, I think they would be worried. In the short run of us doing the same to them, an in the long run of losing their regional influence and trade to the much faster growing settlement at a superior natural harbour.
Our rescue of Kymai is a mission undertaken to show the Mediterranean world the greatness and magnificence of Eretria Eshkata. Let us not start it of by squabbling with the same people we are trying to save. We want to save as many as possible, not just those who bow most quickly to our hegemony."
Gregorios Alexios, wondering if we will soon be able to captain his own ship.
The choice for tribute from the Messapii seems to be almost unanimous, so I will not comment on it further. Similarly, I will not argue too strongly against the Rhegian focus on Lokri. I personally favour taking the chance to nip any issues between our two closest partners in the region in the bud. The focus on Lokri, while sound in the short run will only mean more issues with Krotone and the Sikeliote League in the future. The latter of which is our most important counterweight to Syrakousai. Let me finish by reiterating that this is not question of who we wish to go to war with. We should not need to cower out of fear over the displeasure of Taras due to trade issues on Sicily.
Last, but not least, I must strongly argue against the current movement to enforce the Linean Laws on New Kymai. This is an old polis, with an established core of citizens, we should not force upon them, what we originally intended for Eretrian colonies full of Metics from all corners of Hellas. This is the crucial first step in our pitch to the freemen of Kymai for a new Adriatic settlement. Let us start these talks with an open hand to our brothers in need. I am sure that starting on a positive note will have long running consequences on decisions down the line. Also I disagree with my fellow citizen (@Kipeci), who argues that Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would be happy about our enforcement of the Linean Laws. No, I think they would be worried. In the short run of us doing the same to them, an in the long run of losing their regional influence and trade to the much faster growing settlement at a superior natural harbour.
Our rescue of Kymai is a mission undertaken to show the Mediterranean world the greatness and magnificence of Eretria Eshkata. Let us not start it of by squabbling with the same people we are trying to save. We want to save as many as possible, not just those who bow most quickly to our hegemony."
Gregorios Alexios, wondering if we will soon be able to captain his own ship.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The representative would have to be invited by the proboulos to speak as they are now, and most substantive proposals rather than specific issues (so legal reform rather than specific grievances) have to wait until the meeting once every eight years.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think the opposition to more reforms feels pretty knee-jerk to me and is flavored with a lot of "ungrateful wretches" that I find a little disturbing; these people are the economic backbone of our city. They produce a lot of our wealth; the fact that they'll want more back because of that is a foregone conclusion, in a lot of ways. One of the (dis)advantages of not using slaves is that they'll push for more political rep and concessions (whereas slaves can't do that, but also require use to oppress the fuck out of them all the time). Also metics tend to be more willing and more invested in the city's success; granting them more isn't a bad thing. It gets them invested in the success of the city. It makes them trust the political class. They're not an underclass there for us to simply squeeze for more and more cash dollars; they're a living, breathing, integral part of the city.
That deserves consideration.
That deserves consideration.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros are not newly founded, they've been there since at least the last version of this quest in the time before the Drakonid faction took over and as such the 25 year time has long since run out. They would be no more crowded with immigrants to be granted citizenship than would Pylona or Sipontion; it was only Ankon that was threatened by that earlier because it had been our newest founded city. Anyway, even if immigration were to be open, why would you settle in long-established Melaina Kerkyra for whatever picked over scraps of land might exist when you could go to the other side of the island under Pharos and take your choice of free land from the disestablished Liburnians? The New Kymai would be upon a new site, a harbor with no boundaries defined as of yet; there's just inherently more draw for that.
What this would mean is that they could not contribute immigrants to become citizens at the harbor of the Daorsi, giving them zero influence on the establishment of the city at that harbor which is happening with or without them. Zero contacts to speak of, all trade between the two would have to start between strangers. Whereas we could present them to be in the option of existing in our league to take advantage of the opportunity to set themselves in a better position with the development of this new harbor. Not implementing the Linean Laws essentially throws away the carrot that we could use to encourage them to be in favor of existing in our league, leaving us with just stick.
Furthermore, we're not "forcing" anything on Kymai. They're free to take or reject our offer should they so desire, should they take it then we have the population most on-board with the idea. There's hardly much difference population-wise twenty-five years down the line since higher immigration is possible with the colonial laws in place.
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SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I have spoken on the matter of the metics before. I voted then to reject all their demands. I do so again now.
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
On the one hand, I dislike the idea of strengthening Rhegion at the expense of our allies. On the other hand, to antagonize Taras only a couple of years after the trees of peace were planted in our cities sits ill with me as well. Still, needs must.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
I have chosen Krotone, since Thurii is a valuable ally that we have only recently angered with our alignment with Krotone, and I would rather not choose to antagonize Taras. For those who vote for Taras though, I would like to point out that this will not be the first time Rhegion has gotten in the way of Taras:
The issue with Kymai seems to me to be about our intentions for it and it's people. Should we make them an Eretrian colony again, or should we recognize them as a polis in their own right, and enshrine their rights accordingly? I know I would rather they be yoked to Eretria as a colony, but being able to take many more of the people from their doomed city is an advantage in itself.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
Lastly, there is the additional mission, for which I believe there is only one rightful candidate.
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
The Messapii must be brought in line, before they get any ideas about their station.
Thusly do I, Timanthes, son of Thymoetes and playwright of Eretria, vote on these matters.
Edit:
[] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
On the one hand, I dislike the idea of strengthening Rhegion at the expense of our allies. On the other hand, to antagonize Taras only a couple of years after the trees of peace were planted in our cities sits ill with me as well. Still, needs must.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
I have chosen Krotone, since Thurii is a valuable ally that we have only recently angered with our alignment with Krotone, and I would rather not choose to antagonize Taras. For those who vote for Taras though, I would like to point out that this will not be the first time Rhegion has gotten in the way of Taras:
The issue with Kymai seems to me to be about our intentions for it and it's people. Should we make them an Eretrian colony again, or should we recognize them as a polis in their own right, and enshrine their rights accordingly? I know I would rather they be yoked to Eretria as a colony, but being able to take many more of the people from their doomed city is an advantage in itself.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
Lastly, there is the additional mission, for which I believe there is only one rightful candidate.
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
The Messapii must be brought in line, before they get any ideas about their station.
Thusly do I, Timanthes, son of Thymoetes and playwright of Eretria, vote on these matters.
Edit:
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm pretty concerned about this movement to impose Eretrian law on New Kymai.
Right now, we have a lot of goodwill in the city. From the update, though, it's clear that forcing people to live under Eretrian laws is extremely unpopular.
One of the themes that we seen, over and over again, is that Kymai is a proud city, that takes pride in its heritage and traditions. By forcing them to live under League laws, we're spending that goodwill with nothing to show for it.
Let's be real -- if all we're aiming to do is to settle 1500 people at a port, we might as well go to Taras and buy 1500 Sikeliote slaves while prices are cheap, who we set free to settle at OTL Split or Dubrovnik. It will be cheaper, faster, require much less of a logistics chain, and considerably less alienating to every naval power between us and the swamp hicks.
What we are trying to save is not just the people, but Kymaian institutions; we're trying to build a partner, not a colony, and that requires a less heavy-handed, more indirect approach.
-----
Also, the math regarding colony growth isn't correct. We're assuming that the choice we make now does not lock us out of other choices and squander our goodwill; I'd expect only about 1500 freemen to travel to a colony that's an Eretrian dependency, and I'd expect close to the full 15000 to resettle at something that's truly Nea Kymai.
Assuming that, and using the 1%/2% growth rate difference from above, it's going to be 234 years before the 1500-person Eretrian dependency outgrows the 15000-person Nea Kymai.
Right now, we have a lot of goodwill in the city. From the update, though, it's clear that forcing people to live under Eretrian laws is extremely unpopular.
One of the themes that we seen, over and over again, is that Kymai is a proud city, that takes pride in its heritage and traditions. By forcing them to live under League laws, we're spending that goodwill with nothing to show for it.
Let's be real -- if all we're aiming to do is to settle 1500 people at a port, we might as well go to Taras and buy 1500 Sikeliote slaves while prices are cheap, who we set free to settle at OTL Split or Dubrovnik. It will be cheaper, faster, require much less of a logistics chain, and considerably less alienating to every naval power between us and the swamp hicks.
What we are trying to save is not just the people, but Kymaian institutions; we're trying to build a partner, not a colony, and that requires a less heavy-handed, more indirect approach.
-----
Also, the math regarding colony growth isn't correct. We're assuming that the choice we make now does not lock us out of other choices and squander our goodwill; I'd expect only about 1500 freemen to travel to a colony that's an Eretrian dependency, and I'd expect close to the full 15000 to resettle at something that's truly Nea Kymai.
Assuming that, and using the 1%/2% growth rate difference from above, it's going to be 234 years before the 1500-person Eretrian dependency outgrows the 15000-person Nea Kymai.
The Union of the Amazons and the Scythians (Cavalier)
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Alexis, son of Kallias Aristeides, presents the following Comedy for the enjoyment of the people and the honor of the Divine Union, and for the goddess Aphrodite and Artemis, with due sacrifices to Dionysios, for the Festival thereof in the year 354 OL.
The use of two choruses and relatively lavish demands for action and manpower are here an evolution of the Adventure genre of Eretrian theater derived from the Eusebiad. Comedy has the prerogative of being more nakedly metaphorical or even for direct commentary on politics as well. One might think it's pushing the envelope here, but well look at Aristophanes...
Players
Dorias, an Argive
Philippos, a Thessalian
Orithyia, Queen of the Amazons
Melanippe, Sister of Orithyia
Sagillus, King of the Scythians
Panasagoras, Son of Sagillus
Chorus, Amazon warriors
Chorus, Scythian warriors
Artemis
Ares
Aphrodite
Prologos
Stage arranged as a ship:
The Amazons, having been taken as slaves by the Athenians following the Attic War, revolt and seize control of a ship. Orithyia orders the Greek crew executed, but spares the lives of Dorias and Philippos who were only passengers after the two agree to steer the ship for the Amazons. Dorias, a grave and severe man, admits he has no idea how to navigate once Orithyia exits the stage. Philippos, a more boisterous and optimistic man, says they should do their best while praying to every god he can think of for aid in their endeavour. After going through a number of gods he finally settles on begging Aphrodite for help, as she is clearly the best goddess to aid them with women.
Act I
Stage arranged with trees:
The Amazons arrive in Scythian territory, entering the stage dressed and arrayed as Greek hoplites. A party of exotically dressed Scythians led by Panasgoras arrives afterward and mistakes the Amazons for Greek invaders. The two parties engage in a protracted battle, with Philippos and Dorias humorously attempting to stand aloof from the melee. Eventually one of the Amazons is slain and the Amazon party retreats. Panasgoras is then astonished to discover that he has been fighting women and uses his authority to proclaim that the Scythians will not offer the Amazons battle.
Stasima
The Scythian warriors sing a song of their prowess in battle and the charms of their nomadic lifestyle, free of the constraints of civilization like filthy streets, crowded neighborhoods, and noisy foreigners. And yet these Amazons are an intriguing surprise to them, for while one might not earn honor in fighting women these women can fight and might give a warrior many strong sons. They resolve to invoke the goddess Artemis to their aid, for as a warrior goddess she would understand their dilemma.
Act II
Stage arranged as a camp:
Orithyia holds conference with her sister Melanippe and the two Greeks. She complains that the Scythians continue to refuse battle, simply riding away when they came back to seize the body of their fallen warrior. Their lack of a common speech is another frustration, for if the Scythians will not give them battle she desires they at least tell her where they are and give the Amazons passage back to their homeland. She demands that Dorias and Philippos explain the behavior of the Scythians, because they at least are also men. Philippos blurts out that they should appeal to Aphrodite, since she's the authority on communication between men and women, as a horrified Dorias tries to shut him up. Melanippe however embraces the suggestion, noting that the Scythians are fierce warriors who could give them many strong daughters. Orythias agrees to the idea to appeal to the Scythians as women for lack of a better idea.
Stasima
The Amazon chorus recite their lineage as daughters of Ares and their many battles, and speak of the pain of their exile from their homeland. They appeal to Aphrodite in plain language, pleading they are unused to addressing a goddess of soft arts but that circumstances require it. They ask for the gifts needed to appeal to the Scythians to get them to surrender their ways and accept their subordination in marriage so that many strong children will result.
Act III
Stage arranged as a camp:
Panasgoras is meeting with his father Sagillus, who has come down to discuss the matter of the invaders. When his son describes how the Amazons have stopped attempting to fight but rather have enticed them with gentle gestures he nods knowingly and orders that the youngest and unmarried of the Scythian warriors should make their camp closer and closer to the Amazons each day. They should not brandish weapons but rather flower-wreaths and fruits as gifts. He also tells his son to seek out the most powerful and warlike of the Amazon women so that their royal line should continue to prosper above that of other Scythians. Panasgoras leaves, somewhat confused, to follow his father's command.
Stasima
The Scythian chorus sings odes to Artemis, who has heard their pleas and softened the hearts of the Amazons toward them. They stir with excitement of the idea of Amazon brides and the prospect of subjugating even more barbarous peoples with their aid. And yet some among them wonder of how they can communicate with the strange women and so pray as well for aid from Aphrodite in their rough tongues so that she might aid them in getting along their intent.
Act IV
Stage arranged as a camp:
Ares enters the empty stage, raging about the fate of his daughters and challenging Artemis for interfering in his affairs. Artemis answers his challenge, stating that the Scythians as barbaroi are under her patronage and so it is her right to have a say in matters. Ares attacks the goddess, and she boxes his ears with her bow. Aphrodite descends to intervene, convincing her paramour that the Amazons will be strengthened by their dalliance with the Scythians, and that the Scythians themselves are devotees of his as well as Artemis. Under her ministrations Ares is convinced to accept the patronage of the Amazons and Scythians by Artemis and departs as the two goddesses remain behind to oversee the union.
The Scythians and Amazons enter the stage afterward, dancing and making merry with one another. Panasagorus follows with Melanippe as they approach Queen Orithyia with Philippos and Dorias. As it turns out, Panasagorus speaks Greek and uses Dorias as an interpreter to ask for Melanippe's hand. Delighted to be able to communicate, and appraising that he will be a trustworthy and honorable ally who will give them strong daughters, Orythia consents. Artemis and Aphrodite then appear before all assembled to bless the union of the Amazons and Scythians into a sympolitea, both remaining distinct but cooperating and becoming stronger thereby.
Aphrodite however commands that Orythia take a spouse as well, to show that the Amazons have truly embraced her worship as well as that of Artemis and Ares. Orythia seizes Dorias and Philippos by the arms and proclaims that she will have both of them as her husbands as a shocked Dorias shuts down and Philippos tries to wiggle out citing his eromenos waiting for him back in Thessaly.
Exodus
The Amazons and Scythians pair up with the Amazons taking the dominant position as they parade off the stage. Orythia is next to last with Dorias and Philippos on other side both struggling unsuccessfully to break away, followed by Aphrodite and Artemis proceeding arm-in-arm in alliance for the success of the union they have established.
Dorias, an Argive
Philippos, a Thessalian
Orithyia, Queen of the Amazons
Melanippe, Sister of Orithyia
Sagillus, King of the Scythians
Panasagoras, Son of Sagillus
Chorus, Amazon warriors
Chorus, Scythian warriors
Artemis
Ares
Aphrodite
Prologos
Stage arranged as a ship:
The Amazons, having been taken as slaves by the Athenians following the Attic War, revolt and seize control of a ship. Orithyia orders the Greek crew executed, but spares the lives of Dorias and Philippos who were only passengers after the two agree to steer the ship for the Amazons. Dorias, a grave and severe man, admits he has no idea how to navigate once Orithyia exits the stage. Philippos, a more boisterous and optimistic man, says they should do their best while praying to every god he can think of for aid in their endeavour. After going through a number of gods he finally settles on begging Aphrodite for help, as she is clearly the best goddess to aid them with women.
Act I
Stage arranged with trees:
The Amazons arrive in Scythian territory, entering the stage dressed and arrayed as Greek hoplites. A party of exotically dressed Scythians led by Panasgoras arrives afterward and mistakes the Amazons for Greek invaders. The two parties engage in a protracted battle, with Philippos and Dorias humorously attempting to stand aloof from the melee. Eventually one of the Amazons is slain and the Amazon party retreats. Panasgoras is then astonished to discover that he has been fighting women and uses his authority to proclaim that the Scythians will not offer the Amazons battle.
Stasima
The Scythian warriors sing a song of their prowess in battle and the charms of their nomadic lifestyle, free of the constraints of civilization like filthy streets, crowded neighborhoods, and noisy foreigners. And yet these Amazons are an intriguing surprise to them, for while one might not earn honor in fighting women these women can fight and might give a warrior many strong sons. They resolve to invoke the goddess Artemis to their aid, for as a warrior goddess she would understand their dilemma.
Act II
Stage arranged as a camp:
Orithyia holds conference with her sister Melanippe and the two Greeks. She complains that the Scythians continue to refuse battle, simply riding away when they came back to seize the body of their fallen warrior. Their lack of a common speech is another frustration, for if the Scythians will not give them battle she desires they at least tell her where they are and give the Amazons passage back to their homeland. She demands that Dorias and Philippos explain the behavior of the Scythians, because they at least are also men. Philippos blurts out that they should appeal to Aphrodite, since she's the authority on communication between men and women, as a horrified Dorias tries to shut him up. Melanippe however embraces the suggestion, noting that the Scythians are fierce warriors who could give them many strong daughters. Orythias agrees to the idea to appeal to the Scythians as women for lack of a better idea.
Stasima
The Amazon chorus recite their lineage as daughters of Ares and their many battles, and speak of the pain of their exile from their homeland. They appeal to Aphrodite in plain language, pleading they are unused to addressing a goddess of soft arts but that circumstances require it. They ask for the gifts needed to appeal to the Scythians to get them to surrender their ways and accept their subordination in marriage so that many strong children will result.
Act III
Stage arranged as a camp:
Panasgoras is meeting with his father Sagillus, who has come down to discuss the matter of the invaders. When his son describes how the Amazons have stopped attempting to fight but rather have enticed them with gentle gestures he nods knowingly and orders that the youngest and unmarried of the Scythian warriors should make their camp closer and closer to the Amazons each day. They should not brandish weapons but rather flower-wreaths and fruits as gifts. He also tells his son to seek out the most powerful and warlike of the Amazon women so that their royal line should continue to prosper above that of other Scythians. Panasgoras leaves, somewhat confused, to follow his father's command.
Stasima
The Scythian chorus sings odes to Artemis, who has heard their pleas and softened the hearts of the Amazons toward them. They stir with excitement of the idea of Amazon brides and the prospect of subjugating even more barbarous peoples with their aid. And yet some among them wonder of how they can communicate with the strange women and so pray as well for aid from Aphrodite in their rough tongues so that she might aid them in getting along their intent.
Act IV
Stage arranged as a camp:
Ares enters the empty stage, raging about the fate of his daughters and challenging Artemis for interfering in his affairs. Artemis answers his challenge, stating that the Scythians as barbaroi are under her patronage and so it is her right to have a say in matters. Ares attacks the goddess, and she boxes his ears with her bow. Aphrodite descends to intervene, convincing her paramour that the Amazons will be strengthened by their dalliance with the Scythians, and that the Scythians themselves are devotees of his as well as Artemis. Under her ministrations Ares is convinced to accept the patronage of the Amazons and Scythians by Artemis and departs as the two goddesses remain behind to oversee the union.
The Scythians and Amazons enter the stage afterward, dancing and making merry with one another. Panasagorus follows with Melanippe as they approach Queen Orithyia with Philippos and Dorias. As it turns out, Panasagorus speaks Greek and uses Dorias as an interpreter to ask for Melanippe's hand. Delighted to be able to communicate, and appraising that he will be a trustworthy and honorable ally who will give them strong daughters, Orythia consents. Artemis and Aphrodite then appear before all assembled to bless the union of the Amazons and Scythians into a sympolitea, both remaining distinct but cooperating and becoming stronger thereby.
Aphrodite however commands that Orythia take a spouse as well, to show that the Amazons have truly embraced her worship as well as that of Artemis and Ares. Orythia seizes Dorias and Philippos by the arms and proclaims that she will have both of them as her husbands as a shocked Dorias shuts down and Philippos tries to wiggle out citing his eromenos waiting for him back in Thessaly.
Exodus
The Amazons and Scythians pair up with the Amazons taking the dominant position as they parade off the stage. Orythia is next to last with Dorias and Philippos on other side both struggling unsuccessfully to break away, followed by Aphrodite and Artemis proceeding arm-in-arm in alliance for the success of the union they have established.
The use of two choruses and relatively lavish demands for action and manpower are here an evolution of the Adventure genre of Eretrian theater derived from the Eusebiad. Comedy has the prerogative of being more nakedly metaphorical or even for direct commentary on politics as well. One might think it's pushing the envelope here, but well look at Aristophanes...
I really don't think you people really consider the mid to long term consequences of giving Rhegion a free shot at subjugating Lokri. Yes it is the option that upsets the least important of our allies but I would argue that it also is the option that upsets the balance in the region the most, has the highest potential of complicating our diplomatic situation further and carries not only the highest risk of drawing us into a costly conflict in southern italy in the mid term but also distracts practically all the major powers there from the barbarian threat on their frontdoor.
The Sicily option might upset Taras but it seems to be the option with the lowest reward for Rhegion (and fairly enough also the lowest risk) and means it will be somewhat contained and distracted by all the other big powers on Sicily while the northern option might be distasteful for betraying a potential friend like Hylel (and thus could carry some risk for the evacuation) and risk angering the other rising power in the region who lately hasn't been to happy with us but it would also put Rhegion on a confrontational course against the Lucani and Oscans which seems very useful for those of you who dream of a combined effort against them and, and I admit this could be a positive or negative depending on your own opinion, would make it far easier for Rhegion to actually succeed in "conquering" Kymai which while far from optimal would at the very least deny to the Oscans and further preserve an Greek presence in this key region (though i have to say it is certainly ambitious). Hell, in the "best" case Rhegion succeeds in subjugating its rival and then spends the next few years fighting the Oscans, thus weakening a potential enemy and being unable to become a big problem in southern Italy itself.
And once again I ask you if limiting Kymai growth might not be a good thing considering the issues we are starting to crop with Ankon and our free settlement policy. It seems to me that making New Kymai grow like crazy would likely bring us into conflict, at least on the diplomatic level, with the Dalmatea and that seems an entirely unnecessary distraction.
The Sicily option might upset Taras but it seems to be the option with the lowest reward for Rhegion (and fairly enough also the lowest risk) and means it will be somewhat contained and distracted by all the other big powers on Sicily while the northern option might be distasteful for betraying a potential friend like Hylel (and thus could carry some risk for the evacuation) and risk angering the other rising power in the region who lately hasn't been to happy with us but it would also put Rhegion on a confrontational course against the Lucani and Oscans which seems very useful for those of you who dream of a combined effort against them and, and I admit this could be a positive or negative depending on your own opinion, would make it far easier for Rhegion to actually succeed in "conquering" Kymai which while far from optimal would at the very least deny to the Oscans and further preserve an Greek presence in this key region (though i have to say it is certainly ambitious). Hell, in the "best" case Rhegion succeeds in subjugating its rival and then spends the next few years fighting the Oscans, thus weakening a potential enemy and being unable to become a big problem in southern Italy itself.
And once again I ask you if limiting Kymai growth might not be a good thing considering the issues we are starting to crop with Ankon and our free settlement policy. It seems to me that making New Kymai grow like crazy would likely bring us into conflict, at least on the diplomatic level, with the Dalmatea and that seems an entirely unnecessary distraction.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
@phil03 I wouldn't mind threadmarking your own play if you did some of the revisions Cav suggested. Then I'll take a look myself and give it the final okay.
@Cavalier Thanks! Love these plays.
To clarify I said 17,000 people altogether, not 17,000 freemen, when people asked me before. The city has about 5,500 freemen remaining.
@Cavalier Thanks! Love these plays.
To clarify I said 17,000 people altogether, not 17,000 freemen, when people asked me before. The city has about 5,500 freemen remaining.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Got it. So that 17k counts slaves and metics, as well?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The 17,000 is the entire free population of the city. Slaves aren't counted here but might be a few thousand.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
What is this nonsense of letting the Metics have nothing? It is by our adoption of the Metics that our fair city has grown in power at all.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
What is this nonsense of letting the Metics have nothing? It is by our adoption of the Metics that our fair city has grown in power at all.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Thanks! That's actually really useful information.
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From these two posts, we can derive that the ratio of freemen to citizens in Kymai is about 3.1.
That means, from this choice alone, we're looking at a population difference of 3.1*2000 = 6200 if we make them accept our laws, versus 3.1 * 2700 = 8370 if we don't -- assuming that this doesn't lock us out of the high-population path entirely, given how unpopular it is among the Kymaians.
As for
As a military policy, I would much prefer hoplites furnished from a proud, staunchly loyal ally, confident in themselves and indebted to us; to hoplites from a dependency who resents our dominance. Given that morale, not individual strength, was the key to winning hoplite engagements -- and this is broadly true of any spear formation -- we want to be keeping this in mind, given that we're going to be doing a lot of fighting in the near future.