- Location
- Luton Airport
We could do so much more as regards colonies if we focused on our local region rather than Kymai.
More people, more territory, more wealth, more salt.
More people, more territory, more wealth, more salt.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Mists of Albion
No.
He's saying we're a bunch of Classical 1930's Russia expies.
Think about it, we refused to export the revolution, we focussed on dominating the larger more powerful factions in our 'state' of Epulia, and have since become a major economic and military power in Italia and Sicily with rapid growth in a period where several states are at risk of decline.
Now we just need to decide which of Herodion, Drako or Obander are Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky
- Location
- United States
Progress. I mean, we still haven't solved the issue of inequality and exploitation today, but today's lower classes have it a hell of a lot better than the plebeians did. All we can do is just keep trying to take the systems we have and make them better.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Red Alert was real...No.
He's saying we're a bunch of Classical 1930's Russia expies.
Think about it, we refused to export the revolution, we focussed on dominating the larger more powerful factions in our 'state' of Epulia, and have since become a major economic and military power in Italia and Sicily with rapid growth in a period where several states are at risk of decline.
Now we just need to decide which of Herodion, Drako or Obander are Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Herodion is clearly Trotsky, what with being exiled.No.
He's saying we're a bunch of Classical 1930's Russia expies.
Think about it, we refused to export the revolution, we focussed on dominating the larger more powerful factions in our 'state' of Epulia, and have since become a major economic and military power in Italia and Sicily with rapid growth in a period where several states are at risk of decline.
Now we just need to decide which of Herodion, Drako or Obander are Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Hrm, I've changed by vote to not doing the Kymai rescue, but now I wonder.
With so much of Kymai's current population consisting of refugees with no loyalty to the current city (and who are therefore the most likely to agree to being evacuated), does a successful evacuation and colonization have a chance of their society turning out with something similar?
- Location
- Mists of Albion
And his reformation of the military.
But I don't quite think Trotsky was gay
Or had an eyepatch
Heriodion was basically better Trotsky is what I'm saying
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I mean, they are trying to build a functional polis, they would probably start taking scrolls from our library, seeing how successful and stable we are.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Not really, given they'll likely model their government off Eretria's once they land, and Eretria today doesn't really have the same revolutionary qualities. Further, they'll be well-protected by the Eretrian umbrella.
Most of the western Greeks have a constitution theoretically similar to Eretria's, but without the same origin. It's similar to imitations of British or American government structures by countries without a similar background or context, with some modifications. Sometimes they succeed and sometimes they don't.
dontpressenter
Irrational Philosopher
- Location
- An alternate universe not unlike our own...
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry its people wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry its people wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Your argument for hard power is running face-first into the rare opportunity to cultivate soft power of a kind that is very rare to have in this era. We can always gain more hard power later, this sort of opportunity for soft power does not happen often, since any other event and we would need to worry about getting involved in duking out a war, which would weaken the soft power gained if it was against another Hellenic power, and would be much more costly no matter what (as it'd have the evacuation and the fighting needing to be addressed).
Eretria has innovated diplomacy in a way far more powerful than other Greek cities and leagues -- this is a chance to increase that strength even further.
- Location
- Dreiländereck
Comrade citizens, the general secretary of the boule has decreed that the following comissioners are to develop a five year plan to increase the yields of grain our city produces by as much as five percent, to ensure the autonomy of our glorious polis....
Isisgas looks up:" Friends, I don't know what has come over me. It was very strange."
Isisgas looks up:" Friends, I don't know what has come over me. It was very strange."
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Theopilos the Elder:
"A simple bout of Civic Foolishness, Isisgas. Pay it no mind, it happens to most of us, sooner or later."
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
Aniketos the Philosopher: "All too often, practical things that we can do later become issues we needed to address yesterday."
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Hell, we don't even have to limit ourselves to one or the other, we have two cities in the Dauni, the ones right next to the salt, who want us to let them join our Hegemony, or conquer the Dauni, and we are already stronger than all of the United Dauni with our land forces.
Then there's the fact that since the Dauni have no Fleet, we can do both, we don't need to use our navy, which is the tool to help Kymai, in our war against the Dauni, so we can literally claim local Hegemony finally and save them and settle them in the Venetian Lagoon.
There is no reason whatsoever why we can't do both.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Is that the problem with a revolutionary mindset, where you try to export your own system of government to other countries?
This is a minor derail, and if you want me to take it elsewhere just say the word but I feel like I want to add my thoughts on this.
I always thought that this is why when the USA attempt to export its government, sometimes it fails, and hard. Governments simply arent 'picked'. People like the Iranian Shah, or Attaturk dont just pick a government from a screen, they build a system that works for them in the situation and context in which they exist. They lean one way or another, but you still have to let them choose how to build their own government that works for them in their context. We could never export our government to other Polis, because other Polis did not go through what we went through to arrive where we have arrived.
It isn't to say that they couldn't arrive to the conclusions we have, or hold the views that we have, they just have different ways of doing things because that is what their situations called for.
Its like what Aristotle said (He may not have said this, but I find it insightful nonetheless).
There are no good or bad types of governments, there are only effective and ineffective governments. The effective ones survive, until they are no longer effective. The ineffective governments do not survive at all.
A dictatorship might be what a people need to maintain stability and order. It isn't nice, by any means, but people die.
Stalin died, and the country tried to liberalize. Castro died, and the Cuba IS liberalizing without losing what few good things came about from his rule. You cant just roll in, force them to make a constitution and have a house and senate, and call it a day. All you do is introduce chaos and chaos corrodes a society and causes suffering.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Well, actually it is outright stated that we can't go do the big war the Dauni if we're trying to save Kymai.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Until the next election cycle, the next election cycle is pretty soon.
Unless he means this takes up an entire Party Dominion Phase, which makes no sense at all when we look at the fact the Dauni don't have a navy.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I do think we're starting to put off salt for too long, and we need to act on the Exorian platform at the next election. I don't think it should stop us from saving Kymai, but I think it is as important, and certainly the key priority we want to address next.
You'd think that saving everyone's lives would engender some loyalty. They're certainly going to be more loyal than the Lyakiian civilians we are currently forcibly evicting from their homes and then relocating. They're also going to be more loyal than new Metics who come to Eretria purely because we are offering work, the franchise and land (through colonies) or they want to flee the war between Athens and Sparta.
Securing Kymai (as much of it as we can) gets us things beyond a large population who owes us everyone of their lives and futures. It's going to be a rallying call, a myth that we can base our poleis upon. Sparta turned the sacrifice of 300 of their men to stop the Persians into an enduring myth of their warrior supremacy. Evacuating the better part of 7,500 civilians will be just as miraculous.
Rescuing Kymai shows that we mean what we say when we promise to look after the people under our protection. People are a lot less likely to rebel when they realize their 10% tribute does actually buy them significant protection. Kymai is not our colony, but given we are Eretria reborn, the myth is going to iron that little detail away. It gives us a relatively humanitarian reputation among the Hellenic cities and that can in turn be paid into dividends. I'm sure Rhegion is going to be happy when we offer to relocated Kymai and we can translate that into better relations.
Pylonia, the current largest League city, is made up of 7,000 people and we subjugated them by naked force. Why do you implicitly trust their loyalty? All 7,500 residents of New Kymai will owe us their lives and time will build further loyalty. Grandfathers and grandmothers will tell their grandchild of who saved them and allowed them to have a future.
We're going to have to accept to some degree a League and a loss of direct, almighty control if we want to remain relevant. Athens, the poleis, is not that much larger than us, but their Delian League is over 1.5 million people. The Epulian League will grow just as powerful now that we've finished subjugating the Peuketti and Messapii. We need to move towards that larger League model if we want to remain viable in the long-term. If we don't, when Rome or another native Italian power rises, they will bury us in bodies.
If we want to build an actual state, then we'll need to allow cities to develop outside of our direct purview and grow powerful on their own merits. Eretria's land is ultimately limited and we can't kneecap all of our subordinates in order to preserve the gap. Without murder and fratricide, it's impossible to maintain that over the long-term. Being gracious and working together will be what creates a strong polity, fratricidal infighting to ensure we have the largest slice of an ever decreasing pie will destroy us.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I mean, what are the Peuketii and Messapii kings but governors by another name?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Uh, I mean, yeah, it does. The next election cycle is next year. Why would it not mean that? "Oh sorry, you can't take any foreign missions for the one year in which parties don't do any foreign missions!" What a negative
It's one less foreign mission for the entire next election cycle. This is both to prevent me from burning out by overloading missions (given players will get 3 missions anyways with that 1 free mission they get to vote on the year after the election) and because saving Kymai while building a great work will be expensive. Saving Kymai while building a great work while fighting a war will be financially impossible. The Dauni are not a one season war.
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The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
Screw it, changing my vote. Given that I'm literally the only person actually trying to come up with a plan to save Kymai (in the sense of stalling the siege long enough to completely evacuate it, because keeping it from falling indefinitely isn't possible) and the response has been "that's impossible" without anyone so much as attempting to suggest their own ideas, I'm pretty sure now that if we do vote for that option we're going to find ourselves completely at a loss for what to do about it.
Better to wash our hands now than to wring them uselessly later.
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
Screw it, changing my vote. Given that I'm literally the only person actually trying to come up with a plan to save Kymai (in the sense of stalling the siege long enough to completely evacuate it, because keeping it from falling indefinitely isn't possible) and the response has been "that's impossible" without anyone so much as attempting to suggest their own ideas, I'm pretty sure now that if we do vote for that option we're going to find ourselves completely at a loss for what to do about it.
Better to wash our hands now than to wring them uselessly later.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
You can extend the siege for a while depending on your choices. You just kept throwing out insane ideas, my man
And you have at least three years to evacuate them anyway.