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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Actually, looking at overall Samnite numbers during the Samnite Wars in terms of individual battles, I'm actually going to raise the number the Oscan Campani can call on to as much as 10,000. Especially given the Carthaginians used them as a massive source of manpower and they could capsize all of Campania so quickly. It also quickly puts them into "fuck no" territory for fighting which helps highlight the disparity of forces here, and that really, the Italiote Greeks are outnumbered here, as they were historically. I don't want to oversell the Samnite ability at war to the point where even when you meet them in a 1 on 1 they're super awesome and can own you. But if they also outnumber you that helps make it clearer and fairer.
 
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[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Cetashwayo said:
Actually, looking at overall Samnite numbers during the Samnite Wars in terms of individual battles, I'm actually going to raise the number the Oscan Campani can call on to as much as 10,000. Especially given the Carthaginians used them as a massive source of manpower and they could capsize all of Campania so quickly. It also quickly puts them into "fuck no" territory for fighting which helps highlight the disparity of forces here, and that really, the Italiote Greeks are outnumbered here, as they were historically. I don't want to oversell the Samnite ability at war to the point where even when you meet them in a 1 on 1 they're super awesome and can own you. But if they also outnumber you that helps make it clearer and fairer.
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Better you did this now than after we sent forth the Great Armament and got smashed by Valar! Samnites.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Look, I'm gonna tell you up-front, you really don't want to attract Alkibiades' long-term attention. Yes, the man's antics are hilarious, but he just consigned the natives of Sicilia to death without any hesitation after gaining their trust. The guy is extremely dangerous.
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If we ever want to start a war with Athens, I propose we invite Alkibiades to a conference in Eretria and then find a pretext to execute him. For the irony.

That, or get him to work for us.


As for the situation at hand:

[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Droman said:
Better you did this now than after we sent forth the Great Armament and got smashed by Valar! Samnites.
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Well, if you had done this I wouldn't have changed the numbers then. That would just be mean.

There's actually been several times where I realize something is historically inaccurate but decide not to change it because I think it would disrupt gameplay. One example was finding out there were actually Peuketii cities in what is now Turai and Gnatia, and that Gnatia was Peuketii. But by then you already had relations and vision of this area and changing it would be unfair and give your enemies a sudden power boost. So I wrote it out as being abandoned either as you arrived or a little bit after.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Well, if you had done this I wouldn't have changed the numbers then. That would just be mean.
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Or like a game of Mount and Blade when you don't notice your enemy has friends nearby and suddenly you're facing down three times as many enemies. And then you have to leave men behind and try and get away before they crunch and munch away.

And now I'm hankering for Mount & Blade: Magna Graecia.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

So, Linos is well on his way to getting into the Cemetery of Heroes, and has basically solidified a stranglehold on control of the Drakonids, two amazing victorious wars, a successful and popular colonial policy, and gaining a reputation as a philosopher. He will go very far.

However, I am a bit sad about that lost Trireme, when can we replace it? Or see about expanding our fleet a bit more, honestly 21 doesn't feel as solid as 25, hopefully we can get a boost in numbers from some wealthy donations like we did from Drako in the first thread. Wouldn't want our navy getting worn down.

Lastly, with the Kymai situation, I think it's time we start preparing for war with the Interior, we have allies in Thurri, Krotone and Rhegion, have friends in Taras and Metapontion, Lokri has some issues with raiding as well, and with their ally Syrakuse's defeat and loss of hegemony in the Congress, may just be willing to cooperate if they feel it may bring them some kind of alliance to stave off their possible destruction. Lastly, if we consolidate our control over the Iapgyian, namely organising things with the Messappi, and helping Salapia and Herodonia take control of the Dauni as our clients, we could raise an army exceeding 20,000 via the Italians and Iapgyians that we can let Linos lead against the Oscans, one with strong skirmisher screens, cavalry traditions and sheer numbers to punish them for their raiding.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Inspired by a similar Roman scheme. Those Romans were good at taxing I'll tell ya that much! In 18th century France, there was also a window tax which worked on similar principles, though sometimes people would try to cop out by reducing the number of windows in their house.
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I was always under the impression the Romans had enormous problems with private tax farms, wherein private citizens would essentially bid to have the rights to tax an area, and were given a free hand to do just that so long as they provided the stated bid.
 
McLuvin said:
However, I am a bit sad about that lost Trireme, when can we replace it? Or see about expanding our fleet a bit more, honestly 21 doesn't feel as solid as 25, hopefully we can get a boost in numbers from some wealthy donations like we did from Drako in the first thread. Wouldn't want our navy getting worn down.
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The lost trireme will be rebuilt by Symmachos who will personally donate enough funds to cover the cost in collaboration with the other deme leaders. As for expansion, that'll be discussed next year.

Karugus said:
I was always under the impression the Romans had enormous problems with private tax farms, wherein private citizens would essentially bid to have the rights to tax an area, and were given a free hand to do just that so long as they provided the stated bid.
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VERY

GOOD

AT

TAXING

(also this was for larger areas, it's a lot easier to tax in urban areas for obvious reasons)
 
We are not fighting off the Oscans, now or in the next few years, alone or with a coalition.

In contrast, we can quite viably free the Dauni cities from their King, secure our northern frontier and link our coastal holdings to the northern league members and gain access to one of he richest sources of salt production in the whole region, all under our own power.
 
I mean I guess if we were willing to spend a lot of money we could put 1,5-2k soldiers into the city, add a strong cavalry element to it and supply the city for the next few years while skirmishing with the Oscans till they are tired enough to accept some sort of peace (though we would probably have to face the same problem in tens years time). Or of course we grow/tired or need the men elsewhere and loose (or even worse get into a conflict with the citizens of the city and/or get stormed due the fortunes of war). Still I am tempted to send that force anyhow if only to give us a bit more time to maybe reach out to the local powers and see if we can get something going there though i admit i am not to hopeful on that front since the Latin powers and the Etruscans might be powerful enough to "beat" the Oscans but still have something of a buffer zone between them on the enemy which both makes waiting for the enemy to come to them an attractive prospect and might be hard to cross with massive armies anyway, and get some experience fighting the Oscans. At the very least an additional year might give us valuable time coming up with a way to convince and relocate more citizens.

That said if we are willing to spend a lot of money we could try to perhaps bribe one of the Samnite tribes or Lucani tribes to attack the invaders since that would in many ways solve the problem of how to deal with their mastery of terrain. If history is anything to go by they shouldn't by that united and there is always an faction that feels slighted or is happy to profit from the demise of a rival. The Peuketti and thus we have bordered both factions for quite some time now so maybe there are some avenues of contact we might be able to explore though i admit that paying a very large sum of wealth to relieve the pressure on a distant city not elemental to our security or prosperity could be a hard sell to our citizens and the league.
 
McLuvin said:
However, I am a bit sad about that lost Trireme, when can we replace it? Or see about expanding our fleet a bit more, honestly 21 doesn't feel as solid as 25, hopefully we can get a boost in numbers from some wealthy donations like we did from Drako in the first thread. Wouldn't want our navy getting worn down.

Lastly, with the Kymai situation, I think it's time we start preparing for war with the Interior, we have allies in Thurri, Krotone and Rhegion, have friends in Taras and Metapontion, Lokri has some issues with raiding as well, and with their ally Syrakuse's defeat and loss of hegemony in the Congress, may just be willing to cooperate if they feel it may bring them some kind of alliance to stave off their possible destruction. Lastly, if we consolidate our control over the Iapgyian, namely organising things with the Messappi, and helping Salapia and Herodonia take control of the Dauni as our clients, we could raise an army exceeding 20,000 via the Italians and Iapgyians that we can let Linos lead against the Oscans, one with strong skirmisher screens, cavalry traditions and sheer numbers to punish them for their raiding.
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I like the idea of a big coalition against the interior but I think after taking the Dauni as clients, we should first focus on the Lucani and Brutti before even considering a campaign against the Oscans. Obviously all of this is a number of years away as their is a fair bit of work before we can get a grand coalition. Assuming it is feasible.
 
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Consider also, that the interior tribes spilling out to the coast on the west benefits us on a purely pragmatic level as we carve our dominions further into the eastern side of that interior.
 
Karugus said:
I was always under the impression the Romans had enormous problems with private tax farms, wherein private citizens would essentially bid to have the rights to tax an area, and were given a free hand to do just that so long as they provided the stated bid.
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I think that was mostly a thing that came up late in the Republic when Rome had to deal with the sudden and massive expansion that followed the Punic Wars and suddenly was responsible for the exploitation of wealth from numerous provinces far away from Rome/Italy. I know Sicily had some issues in that regard (I think Cicero had some contact there) but I don't think they were ever really present in italy itself.
 
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Ironanvil1 said:
We are not fighting off the Oscans, now or in the next few years, alone or with a coalition.

In contrast, we can quite viably free the Dauni cities from their King, secure our northern frontier and link our coastal holdings to the northern league members and gain access to one of he richest sources of salt production in the whole region, all under our own power.
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I am aware, I am one of the biggest advocates for finally ending the Dauni, and was the first to suggest replacing the current royal dynasty with a puppet one from Salapia or Herodinia a few weeks back.

And I believe all of the Italiotes and Iapgyians combined might be able to defeat the Oscans. I truly believe that, such a force would be able to throw out well over 20,000 men for a single army, and the reserves to suffer a hefty defeat and keep fighting, as well as Eretria's extremely massive Scared Treasury backing it up.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
What little understanding I have of these things tells me that a good natural harbor is more important than a useful transit point, especially since this is a priority decision as opposed to an either or type deal.

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
I don't have a good handle of all the politics going on so this seems like a safe option.

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
Sounds fun.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
Eretria is good at diplomacy but it's not that good. Not everyone has the benefit of hindsight. Far as most of the Italiotes see it the Oscans are going to settle down after Kymai falls and won't be a bother anymore, and the Brutii and Lucani are minor annoyances who might take some smaller cities but not our cities. It's not until the late 4th century BCE that the situation becomes desperate enough that the Italiotes are willing to call in outside help, and IMO the Brutii were even given the opportunity they had mostly because Syrakousai crippled the western Italiotes by owning the shit out of them.

In the perspective of most people, including most Eretrians, the Oscans aren't a huge threat. They're a threat regionally, but no one's thinking they're going to be dangerous in the long run. They raid, and then they're beaten, and then you don't have to worry about them. They might burn a city down every now and then, but the Hellenes also burn down cities, and they do it in a more organized way. If there is anxieties most thoughts are directed to the Peloponnesian War.

Erandil said:
I think that was mostly a thing that came up late in the Republic when Rome had to deal with the sudden and massive expansion that followed the Punic Wars and suddenly was responsible for the exploitation of wealth from numerous provinces far away from Rome/Italy. I know Sicily had some issues in that regard (I think Cicero had some contact there).
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This is correct. The Romans relied on publicani in order to support their taxation as they took control of massive new areas and needed to somehow govern and collect revenue from them. I don't think they remain prominent during the Empire. The publicani may still be around in the Imperial era but their excesses are reduced.
 
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
 
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Ironanvil1 said:
It seems to Sideros that we would better invest our efforts in liberating those settlements who have already expressed an eagerness to come under our hegemony from the yoke of the capricious and murderous Dauni King, rather than engage in grand gestures on the other side of Italia towards people who have not even requested such aid.
Send relief to our distant kin, aye, but those who speak of sending Eretrian hoplites to battle Oscan barbaroi have never marched in the dust of a long road to war, one suspects.
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An evacuation is not the same thing as meeting the Oscans in the field, and no one is seriously proposing we do that. This will be a strictly diplomatic and naval operation; leveraging Eretria's advantages.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Yes, but I don't consider such crazed fever-dreams "serious". :lol
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TBF I only proposed doing that after uniting all the Italiote and Epulian Greeks alongside the Iapgyians Kingdoms under a single Alliance against the Oscans, which makes the idea feasible.

Outside of that, there's no way I'm voting to go to war with them, no way, no how. I'd rather just build up our colonies in the Adriatic, finish eating the Messappi and Dauni and then upgrade the Temple Of The Divine Marriage, properly this time, as the greatest Temple in all Italia.
 
McLuvin said:
TBF I only proposed doing that after uniting all the Italiote and Epulian Greeks alongside the Iapgyians Kingdoms under a single Alliance against the Oscans, which makes the idea feasible.

Outside of that, there's no way I'm voting to go to war with them, no way, no how. I'd rather just build up our colonies in the Adriatic, finish eating the Messappi and Dauni and then upgrade the Temple Of The Divine Marriage, properly this time, as the greatest Temple in all Italia.
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Oh yeah, in that case you could definitely fight them. That's just, uh, a while away, if it happens. Lots of ways for it to be disrupted :p
 
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