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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Admiral Skippy said:
DON'T FORGET THOSE SLAVIC GODS WE MADE UP

OR YOU WON'T GET YOUR '70S ACADEMIC LEATHER ELBOW PATCHES
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Which Slavic gods?

Sivantic said:
I am constantly irked by how it keeps getting pushed that because the Festival of Persephone is supportive of traditional roles that it is a step back and it is not. We are dealing with straight up misogyny here, the hatred of women. We have gotten word of Cet on that. The Festival would be about acknowledging women as being important, that the role of the housewife is not something to dismiss but a valuable and important part of society.

I have to fight this sort of thinking now, or else the exact same thing is going to get trotted out later.

You may think that is a step back from the modern day, but we are trying to start somewhere. The Festival of Ploutos is restrictive, it only celebrates women who already have money or those that managed to sneak property through loop holes. It is not about being supportive of women in the public sphere, it is of only acknowledging women of wealth. It is the safe option.
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I think you're making too much soup out of too little stock here.

This is a case where either festival choice is a major step forward for women's representation in Eretrian culture because, well, it's a festival that represents women in the culture of a Greek city-state of the 5th century CE.

The Festival of Persephone does this and affirms women's traditional role; the Courtship of Ploutos does this and affirms women's right to enter the economic sphere. Note that I mean 'affirms' as in 'affirmation' as in 'affirmative' as in 'you go girl!' just to be clear about that.

The Courtship of Ploutos is more subversive of traditional restrictions on women, tending to reinforce existing minor subversions of those restrictions that we've already seen in Eretria. Meanwhile, the Festival of Persephone is more inclusive of the deep-traditional-feminine in Greek culture as a whole.

The way for further gender equality is not in the support of only those with money, the exceptions, but the support of as many women as possible. This is a democracy, we should not be trying to extend the hand to only to those in power, but women from all backgrounds, whether they be the wife of a fisherman or an aristocrat.
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As others have pointed out, widows with involvement in business are not necessarily rich. The widow of a dead fisherman killed by an accident at sea is not part of the aristocracy. The widow of a hardscrabble farmer trying to hold onto her late husband's estate is not part of the aristocracy.

The situation is more complicated than you are making it out to be.

I never said that the Festival of Ploutos can fill in the Harvest festival, the list was to show that there are several slots it can fill throughout the year, including an Early Spring slot which should be near enough its original time to move. Look at the current vote, it is not like we would only be creating one festival at a time.

Well we are not really working with hard time slots since Cet only used terms like late Summer or mid Autumn so I could have only extrapolated that there must be some reason for that.
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As noted, there is strong compelling logic for having a festival of Demeter, in which Persephone can readily become involved, at harvest time. We have room for that.

Or, hell, the Running of the Weasels could be reshuffled to a different time of year, because honoring the gods with a well-timed harvest festival takes priority.
 
Sivantic said:
I am constantly irked by how it keeps getting pushed that because the Festival of Persephone is supportive of traditional roles that it is a step back and it is not. We are dealing with straight up misogyny here, the hatred of women. We have gotten word of Cet on that. The Festival would be about acknowledging women as being important, that the role of the housewife is not something to dismiss but a valuable and important part of society.

I have to fight this sort of thinking now, or else the exact same thing is going to get trotted out later.

You may think that is a step back from the modern day, but we are trying to start somewhere. The Festival of Ploutos is restrictive, it only celebrates women who already have money or those that managed to sneak property through loop holes. It is not about being supportive of women in the public sphere, it is of only acknowledging women of wealth. It is the safe option.

The way for further gender equality is not in the support of only those with money, the exceptions, but the support of as many women as possible. This is a democracy, we should not be trying to extend the hand to only to those in power, but women from all backgrounds, whether they be the wife of a fisherman or an aristocrat.

I never said that the Festival of Ploutos can fill in the Harvest festival, the list was to show that there are several slots it can fill throughout the year, including an Early Spring slot which should be near enough its original time to move. Look at the current vote, it is not like we would only be creating one festival at a time.
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Look, I've said before that I like the Festival of Persephone. I don't want to get put into a box here where I'm having a go at it because it affirms and celebrates traditional gender roles, because that isn't what's happening here. Celebrating traditional femininity can be empowering too, and certainly may be a valuable corrective when classical Greek culture could tend to erase women so much.

But it's equally wrongheaded to see the Courting of Ploutos as restrictive, any more than the Return of Persephone is. Both of them celebrate womanhood within certain spheres, but it is absurd to suggest that a festival celebrating women engaging in business in the public sphere in partnership with men is anything other than empowering for all women trying to assert themselves in public. It is most popular with widows and wealthy women, for obvious reasons, but it celebrates all women who engage in business.

As I said at the start of this, my deciding reason for voting is because I like the idea of a festival which is celebrated by giving money to poor women.

If it were not for that, I would be roughly evenly split, because they are both good festivals that celebrate women. But the suggestion that the Courting of Ploutos represents some kind of elitism, when it is the only festival which explicitly celebrates generosity to the poor and vulnerable, is actually rather perverse.
 
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone. Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.

This is the first time i've been on the persephone side after a Admiral Skippy post. I'm logging off now.
 
veekie said:
Isn't our view of Demeter more of the "raging <bleep of a mother-in-law" here for the Persephone festival?
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That's one reason why I would also ideally prefer a Persephone festival centered around the harvest, rather than spring. It would probably frame Persephone's leaving in somewhat bittersweet terms; the joy of marriage and the sorrow of saying goodbye to family. More focus on the love of Demeter for her daughter, and on her primacy within the story (it is harvest time, after all), would be a good thing, I think.

Like to a certain extent, why do we have to make it one festival celebrating women, or the other? Especially when the harvest is a major festival, rather than a minor one. A story as primal as Persephone's descent into the Underworld could carry the weight of a major seasonal festival.

Essentially:
 
I am assuming that the above discussions are being done out of character.

Because if they are being done in character;

I...uh...I don't get it.
 
I am now suddenly concerned that the citizenship only-in laws would result in genetic bottlenecking.
 
So no sea weed farming is possible in Classical Greece? Even if driven by pioneering chefs?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Which Slavic gods?

I think you're making too much soup out of too little stock here.

This is a case where either festival choice is a major step forward for women's representation in Eretrian culture because, well, it's a festival that represents women in the culture of a Greek city-state of the 5th century CE.

The Festival of Persephone does this and affirms women's traditional role; the Courtship of Ploutos does this and affirms women's right to enter the economic sphere. Note that I mean 'affirms' as in 'affirmation' as in 'affirmative' as in 'you go girl!' just to be clear about that.

The Courtship of Ploutos is more subversive of traditional restrictions on women, tending to reinforce existing minor subversions of those restrictions that we've already seen in Eretria. Meanwhile, the Festival of Persephone is more inclusive of the deep-traditional-feminine in Greek culture as a whole.

As others have pointed out, widows with involvement in business are not necessarily rich. The widow of a dead fisherman killed by an accident at sea is not part of the aristocracy. The widow of a hardscrabble farmer trying to hold onto her late husband's estate is not part of the aristocracy.

The situation is more complicated than you are making it out to be.

As noted, there is strong compelling logic for having a festival of Demeter, in which Persephone can readily become involved, at harvest time. We have room for that.

Or, hell, the Running of the Weasels could be reshuffled to a different time of year, because honoring the gods with a well-timed harvest festival takes priority.
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It is called stone soup and it is an Eretrian delicacy! :V

And maybe read my post more closely? That final part you quoted was about how in the Festival of Persephone, it does not matter who you are a wife of, whereas in the Festival of Ploutos, it does.

You really should avoid spaghetti posting :p

Admiral Skippy said:
Look, I've said before that I like the Festival of Persephone. I don't want to get put into a box here where I'm having a go at it because it affirms and celebrates traditional gender roles, because that isn't what's happening here. Celebrating traditional femininity can be empowering too, and certainly may be a valuable corrective when classical Greek culture could tend to erase women so much.

But it's equally wrongheaded to see the Courting of Ploutos as restrictive, any more than the Return of Persephone is. Both of them celebrate womanhood within certain spheres, but it is absurd to suggest that a festival celebrating women engaging in business in the public sphere in partnership with men is anything other than empowering for all women trying to assert themselves in public. It is most popular with widows and wealthy women, for obvious reasons, but it celebrates all women who engage in business.

As I said at the start of this, my deciding reason for voting is because I like the idea of a festival which is celebrated by giving money to poor women.

If it were not for that, I would be roughly evenly split, because they are both good festivals that celebrate women. But the suggestion that the Courting of Ploutos represents some kind of elitism, when it is the only festival which explicitly celebrates generosity to the poor and vulnerable, is actually rather perverse.
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That is still restrictive even with your expanded demographic. Not all women want to go into business, especially when not even most men are in business either. The vast majority of our people are farmers, not merchants. We are not really in a time period where we can afford otherwise. The vast majority however, will be married.

The shower of drachmas, to put it bluntly and if you will excuse my barbaroi, is nothing more than panem et circenses.

It is giving one woman a temporary lucky break in a city of thousands once a year. It does nothing to actually resolve poverty. It is foolish to think that a paltry 200 drachmas is enough to solve the problems of our poor.

It is a celebration of two folks getting married to get even richer. Of course it is elitist! :p

Let us put it this way the Festival of Persephone affirms the traditional role of women, but there is nothing saying that those traditions cannot change or even are universal. Consider Taras who is right next door. Their traditions are to allow women to speak as equals and that is great! What is to say we do not steal that? We have already taken the Orion and Artemis from our barbaroi, and the Demeter and Poseidon from our Metics.

(Incidentally, lots of people love that marriage since it is more down to earth and Demeter is nice...r)

This would only be the starting point, and I believe the best way is to include as many women as possible to ensure there is less in-fighting and that there is more cooperation between classes.
 
Sivantic said:
It is called stone soup and it is an Eretrian delicacy! :V

And maybe read my post more closely? That final part you quoted was about how in the Festival of Persephone, it does not matter who you are a wife of, whereas in the Festival of Ploutos, it does.

You really should avoid spaghetti posting :p
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And maybe you should read my post more closely. My point is that in the Courtship of Ploutos, it doesn't matter whether you are the wife of a rich or poor person. The reality of women involved in commerce, trade, and money cuts across class lines in a society like this.

You've been pitching this as a festival that sets the rich against the poor, or that esteems the rich and ignores the poor. I would argue that both characterizations are inaccurate. Firstly because the festival literally redistributes money from the city coffers or from wealthy charitable donors to the poor. And secondly because the festival celebrates women involved in the economy of the city in any capacity, be they rich or poor alike. Not every woman in the city is involved in commerce, but every woman in the city knows that someone like her is involved in commerce, or some day may be. Because any woman may become a widow, any woman may find it necessary to assist in running a family business, and so on- especially in an era when "family business" typically means "one craftsman and his assistant or two."

That is still restrictive even with your expanded demographic. Not all women want to go into business, especially when not even most men are in business either. The vast majority of our people are farmers, not merchants. We are not really in a time period where we can afford otherwise. The vast majority however, will be married.
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Farmers, too, are involved in commerce- because they buy and sell goods. Again, I explicitly reference the reality of widows trying to hold onto hardscrabble farms- a reality that has been a constant for as long as there have been families and agriculture.
 
Sivantic said:
cooperation between classes
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I want to push back on the idea that "class" is a useful, productive, or even meaningful way to conceptualize a Greek polis.

There are just over 10,000 adult males resident in Eretria.

A large urban high school in the United States is about 3,000 students, plus faculty and staff.

When we talk about Eretria, we're talking about something like three to five high schools of people. In Eretria, there's no useful way to discuss social class without talking about its members, in the same what that it's very difficult to assign a character to a high school class without specifically mentioning Chloe, Hector or Aristarchus as individuals. Eretria, as a community, is very, very small, small enough that everyone in the city is a friend of a friend, and you know the faces of about a quarter of them.
 
Shard said:
I am now suddenly concerned that the citizenship only-in laws would result in genetic bottlenecking.
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It's a legitimate threat in a very small polis, but it'd take several generations to unfold, and on those timescales something else usually happens to said very small polis, such as the entire place being burned down and its inhabitants being scattered to the four winds before inbreeding has time to become relevant.

Secretariat said:
I want to push back on the idea that "class" is a useful, productive, or even meaningful way to conceptualize a Greek polis.

There are just over 10,000 adult males resident in Eretria.

A large urban high school in the United States is about 3,000 students, plus faculty and staff.

When we talk about Eretria, we're talking about something like three to five high schools of people. In Eretria, there's no useful way to discuss social class without talking about its members, in the same what that it's very difficult to assign a character to a high school class without specifically mentioning Chloe, Hector or Aristarchus as individuals. Eretria, as a community, is very, very small, small enough that everyone in the city is a friend of a friend, and you know the faces of about a quarter of them.
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To be fair, you can totally have economic stratification by class in a community not much larger than a large high school.

However, this requires a lot of social institutions to preserve and enforce that kind of wealth, institutions Eretria doesn't really have.

It bears remembering that Eretria was founded by a large population of people with very little material property to their names, and that this took place less than 100 years ago. There simply hasn't been time for the city's elite to accumulate very large estates, and many of the decisions made early in the city's history (i.e. limits on the number of slaves any one citizen can own) tended to sharply limit the amount of wealth inequality that could exist within the city.

I mean for fuck's sake, membership in the "aristocracy" of Eretrian society is defined by 'owns enough land to graze a horse, probably hires several farm hands or owns several serfs.' We're not talking Roman senators of the late Republic with fortunes measured in thousands of talents of gold and silver or massive latifundia here. The most prosperous men in the city are, basically, gentleman farmers- low ranking gentry by the standards of feudal Europe. We shouldn't project our concepts of class warfare onto this society; it's not classless but it's not sharply stratified WITHIN the citizen classes. The real stratification is "all citizens over all metics and slaves and serfs" and "men over women."

kilopi505 said:
Jesus Christ is there no edible seaweed species INSIDE the Mediterranean? The nearest place that I can find is past the Straight of Gibraltar.
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Mayhaps you have just discovered WHY Europe isn't big on eating seaweed...

Also in all seriousness, the Mediterranean has somewhat unusual salinity and climate conditions for an ocean, I suspect, and the strong currents at various depths on the Strait of Gibraltar may impact what sort of seaweed can get into it.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Since the Carthaginians have gone past Gibraltar, may they can find a way to introduce edible seaweed into the Mediterranean?
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Ok. Let's find us some enterprising Carthaginians. Or Lusitanians.

No, seriously. If we can just farm the seas...we would have significantly increased Eretria's food production.

Simon_Jester said:
Mayhaps you have just discovered WHY Europe isn't big on eating seaweed...

Also in all seriousness, the Mediterranean has somewhat unusual salinity and climate conditions for an ocean, I suspect, and the strong currents at various depths on the Strait of Gibraltar may impact what sort of seaweed can get into it.
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I get my info about edible seaweeds from this UN website.

1. INTRODUCTION TO COMMERCIAL SEAWEEDS

Irish moss and Winged kelp and Ascophyllum seem promising in the context of Eretria Eschate. The first 2 for human consumption and the last as animal feed, especially for our horses.
 
kilopi505 said:
Ok. Let's find us some enterprising Carthaginians. Or Lusitanians.

No, seriously. If we can just farm the seas...we would have significantly increased Eretria's food production.



I get my info about edible seaweeds from this UN website.

1. INTRODUCTION TO COMMERCIAL SEAWEEDS

Irish moss and Winged kelp and Ascophyllum seem promising in the context of Eretria Eschate. The first 2 for human consumption and the last as animal feed, especially for our horses.
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Why would we pay Carthaginians to go beyond the pillars of Hercules to grab a seaweed that we don't know exists and that all the versions we know of are inedible?
 
Kipeci said:
Why would we pay Carthaginians to go beyond the pillars of Hercules to grab a seaweed that we don't know exists and that all the versions we know of are inedible?
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I don't know about the 'we don't know exists' part. Irish moss is eaten in Ireland and its vicinity so we can postulate that the Atlantic Celts could also be eating seaweeds as of last update's date. Rumors of eating plants from the sea could travel down the trade routes. Like...say, we are trying to connect with the Amber road, right? Or are we connected already? @Cetashwayo?

So, the upper end of the Amber road is where winged kelp is a culinary thing. Se could get rumors of sea vegetables via the Enetoi. Also someone is roleplaying as a trader who regularly goes to the Enetoi, how else could they get ice?

As for the why? Why not, when the result could be an increase in food production not only for Eretria but the entire Adriatic?
 
kilopi505 said:
Ok. Let's find us some enterprising Carthaginians. Or Lusitanians.

No, seriously. If we can just farm the seas...we would have significantly increased Eretria's food production.
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Do you have evidence that Greeks unfamiliar with how to farm seaweed would be able to produce more calories and nutrients by seaweed farming than they would by farming crops and fishing in ways that they DO know how to do?

Remember, you don't get food by "having resources." A community with 20 different kinds of plant foodstuffs doesn't necessarily have more to eat than a community with four kinds. There's no "Achievement Unlocked, 4th Variety of Root Crop Found, +5% food production," unless you happen to discover a specific crop that far outstrips anything you have (potatoes are one of the few examples of this, and they're out of our reach).

See, you don't get food by having a long list of food items potentially available to your society to be grown. You get food by growing or gathering food. Food is produced through labor. Labor spent gathering one kind of food is mutually exclusive with labor spent gathering other kinds of food. And almost all labor by almost all humans in a society like Eretria's is spent, directly or indirectly, on gathering that food.

This is what we call "subsistence farming-" farming, not for profit like a business, but so that the farmer can personally eat what they grow, or trade it for the things they eat to live.

And it's generally more efficient for subsistence farmers to focus on methods of food production and gathering that their ancestors have been fine-tuning for generations, than to constantly run around scrambling to find new and unfamiliar crops and food sources that may or may not work under the specific conditions where they live.

Tell me, @kilopi505 , and I'm actually serious, I'm curious to know the answer, have you ever heard of the principle of comparative advantage?
 
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