Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Star said:

I kinda don't like idea of Pluto wining because it looks like some sort of celebration reserved mostly for the rich instead of entire city.
Heck it puts emphasis on rich women.

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Not only is there the redistribution component Skippy mentioned, broadening the scope of the festival from the rich to the whole city will happen, if not within the scope of this game, then certainly within a generation.

Turns out humans really, really like to get involved in parties.

Star said:

I mean it's one thing to have rich donate part of their riches to the poor to look good and entirely other to actually solve the problem in Elysia.

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No one is going to "actually solve the problem" here in the sense you mean. We aren't calling up the Department of Labour Statistics and asking for policy proposals here. Bringing modern sensibilities into this is not a good idea.

Religious donations were a big deal in pre-modernity, in terms of effective relief for the poor. More often than not it was the only form of effective assistance they received. If we do develop our own version of a proto-welfare state, it may very well be couched in religious terms.

The precedent set here by all of our richer people showing generosity by giving to poor women is a really good one, socially speaking. It would be beneficial for those who need it the most.

Like even if it can be argued that it doesn't go far enough its still a step in a good direction. Five may be less than ten, but one is more than zero and many Greek societies are sitting at negative numbers right now.

Another thing to keep in mind:

Cetashwayo said:

While some have raised the idea of having an additional festival around the harvest, the general disposition is to leave such an important festival to another reform, as there are many minor traditions that would be difficult to choose from.

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Given Persephone's journey into the underworld to meet her husbando matches the passing of the seasons, with her leaving in Autumn, and Demeter is obviously very associated with the harvest, we could also probably do a major Festival centered around Persephone and Demeter here, around the harvest. We could make it another major Divine Marriage festival, even, which would be very on-brand for us.

It might be a little more centered around the relationship between Persephone and Demeter as mother and daughter, and the sadness of saying goodbye contrasted against the joy of marriage, I'm unsure. Either way, all good stuff.

So, all that is to say that we may get another, greater opportunity for a festival to Persephone later on, but with the Courting of Ploutos, this is probably a one-time opportunity.

As I've said, I would really like a festival which involves the whole community giving money to poor women.

INDECISION INTENSIFIES

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

Admiral Skippy said:

Another thing to keep in mind:


Given Persephone's journey into the underworld to meet her husbando matches the passing of the seasons, with her leaving in Autumn, and Demeter is obviously very associated with the harvest, we could also probably do a major Festival centered around Persephone and Demeter here, around the harvest. We could make it another major Divine Marriage festival, even, which would be very on-brand for us.

It might be a little more centered around the relationship between Persephone and Demeter as mother and daughter, and the sadness of saying goodbye contrasted against the joy of marriage, I'm unsure. Either way, all good stuff.

So, all that is to say that we may get another, greater opportunity for a festival to Persephone later on, but with the Courting of Ploutos, this is probably a one-time opportunity.

As I've said, I would really like a festival which involves the whole community giving money to poor women.

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Festival celebrating marriage between Hades and Persephone with mother daughter relationship by side? In wich we can organise mass weddings with mothers escorting their daughters to the groom?

I've been sold.

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

Erandil said:

@Cetashwayo

A quick question, I understand why we have limited the citizenship to only children born of citizens since there is for example an argument to be made that strong familial connections to groups outside the polis have the potential of weakening the ties that bind it together (and of course the opposite is also true in that ties between families in the polis bind it together). But I wondered how difficult it would be to weaken that rule enough to allow for marriages within the Epulian League to happen without that loss and thus strengthen the ties between our cities even more.

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Sorry, missed this earlier, the answer would be no. There really isn't much inertia for this move given citizens always marry in.

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone. Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] The city has no masters except the Gods, none to worship except those in the heavens. To elevate men to such a degree threatens the rise of tyrants.

I stand by what I said before, no crown on an Eretreian head.
We are a demokratia.
Either we are all kings, or none of us are.
So says Hector the Rower.

PCTacitus said:

I stand by what I said before, no crown on an Eretreian head.
We are a demokratia.
Either we are all kings, or none of us are.
So says Hector the Rower.

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Dareios: "EVERY MAN A KING, BUT NO ONE WEARS A CROWN!!!"

*pause*

"Wow, I'm sorry for that, I don't know what just came over me."

Cetashwayo said:

Sorry, missed this earlier, the answer would be no. There really isn't much inertia for this move given citizens always marry in.

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Yeah.

I could imagine it happening if something as the increasingly solid Sikelikote (?) League gradually evolves into a nation, assuming it ever actually does, because they have something increasingly approximating shared League citizenship as it is.

But the Epulian League isn't like that, it's fairly directly and blatantly "the Eretrian empire," just ruled with a light hand and given more power to restrain the Eretrian metropole than is usual in such an arrangement.

If such laws WERE passed, they'd be a lot more likely to be passed in the smaller League cities first, to enable male citizens of the smaller League cities to seek brides elsewhere. Those cities' smaller citizen populations would provide more incentive to seek exogamy than the roughly twenty thousand citizens of Eretria, I would think.

(EDIT: Like, you could call it the Paris-and-Helen exception. If you bring back a foreign Hellene woman and marry her, your kids are citizens. Running off with the wife of the king of Sparta is still considered highly inadvisable though. )

Random Member said:

Dareios: "EVERY MAN A KING, BUT NO ONE WEARS A CROWN!!!"

*pause*

"Wow, I'm sorry for that, I don't know what just came over me."

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"Truly, some mischievous spirit has left its marks on our friend Dareios..."

"But truly, I have no fear that the laurel leaves of a victorious contestant will turn into the crown of a king. If a man puts on such airs we can simply raise him up higher still- upon our spearpoints."

Simon_Jester said:

"But truly, I have no fear that the laurel leaves of a victorious contestant will turn into the crown of a king. If a man puts on such airs we can simply raise him up higher still- upon our spearpoints."

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Eh, I think people are focused too much on the king/tyrant angle, and not enough on the other effects this will have.

As my IC posts have touched on, I think this passing will be a shame because it makes Eretria less unique. Rome was all well and good, but Eretria doesn't need to be Rome.

fasquardon

Admiral Skippy said:

Another thing to keep in mind:


Given Persephone's journey into the underworld to meet her husbando matches the passing of the seasons, with her leaving in Autumn, and Demeter is obviously very associated with the harvest, we could also probably do a major Festival centered around Persephone and Demeter here, around the harvest. We could make it another major Divine Marriage festival, even, which would be very on-brand for us.

It might be a little more centered around the relationship between Persephone and Demeter as mother and daughter, and the sadness of saying goodbye contrasted against the joy of marriage, I'm unsure. Either way, all good stuff.

So, all that is to say that we may get another, greater opportunity for a festival to Persephone later on, but with the Courting of Ploutos, this is probably a one-time opportunity.

As I've said, I would really like a festival which involves the whole community giving money to poor women.

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I am not in agreement. First of all the festival of Ploutos has nothing to do with spring. It really has nothing to with any of the seasons. Yet at the same time, as a largely mercantile state we are always going to pay respects to the gods and goddesses of wealth. So I really do not see this being a one time only deal.

I also do not agree that it would be a festival that involves the whole community. Will everyone participate? Yes. It is a festival, of course everyone is going to want to join, but who will be the focus?

The rich and widowed.

The push for recognition and acceptance will be hard enough as is without adding class differences into the mix.

Let it not be a celebration of aristocratic women and one poor woman, but a celebration of women of all classes and their families!

[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone. Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.

Theocritus the confused, son of Antigonos, changes his vote once again.

"Citizens, be solemn! While I be as happy as everyone if we celebrate our wealth in a grander way, we have the chance to honor a divine marriage this time one accepted all across Hellas! Also, these times are sadly more suitable for a festival of life and death. We have the chance to remember our fallen and celebrate the new life. Please, consider this."

So said Kleon Prokopios, greatly concerned merchant.

Wellhello said:

Theocritus, youyou need to include the rest of your previous votes otherwise they will not be counted.

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I wanted to stop spamming the thread with a massive text wall every time I changed one vote.

@Cetashwayo, did Ancient Greeks consume seaweeds as opposed to feeding it to animals?

Is it possible to start seaweed farming with a user motion?

EDIT:

Just for the record, an amusing observation. In The Courtship of Ploutos, the demi-goddess created by Aphrodite to match Ploutos? Nomisnia? Pretty sure from the name that she's meant to be a goddess of coins and money, specifically... and that she doesn't actually officially exist.

We'd be inventing a new goddess.

I think this is kind of cool actually.

fasquardon said:

Eh, I think people are focused too much on the king/tyrant angle, and not enough on the other effects this will have.

As my IC posts have touched on, I think this passing will be a shame because it makes Eretria less unique. Rome was all well and good, but Eretria doesn't need to be Rome.

fasquardon

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I can get that, but on the other hand I feel like Eretria has enough profoundly distinguishing characteristics to prevent it from turning into Rome (lack of a separate aristocratic senate, plus a maritime tradition, being the big ones) that just institutionalizing the "ekklesia can vote a public honor upon a citizen if they want" isn't going to turn us into them.

racnor said:

I wanted to stop spamming the thread with a massive text wall every time I changed one vote.

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You could just edit your last post then?

Though to be far the accept Taras deal is pretty much a one sided vote, Sea vs Zeus is leaning heavy towards Sea last time I checked (so go strengthen our naval cultre and training!)

Does anyone get the feel that a 2nd autumn festival will either be part of each domestic platform or part of additional work on the calendar and festivals as part of one of the demes platform.

Spring festival is 40-40 split,
Taras 80-0
Sea over zeus 59-20
Honor 57-19

Random Member said:

You could just edit your last post then?

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I also want to communicate to the the primary debaters which arguments have persuaded me though, given the closeness of things.

Simon_Jester said:

EDIT:

Just for the record, an amusing observation. In The Courtship of Ploutos, the demi-goddess created by Aphrodite to match Ploutos? Nomisnia? Pretty sure from the name that she's meant to be a goddess of coins and money, specifically... and that she doesn't actually officially exist.

We'd be inventing a new goddess.

I think this is kind of cool actually.

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Ah, yes, Ariadne Nomisnia, a real goddess of the mint, yep yep, everything is in order here.

It's an interesting but little known fact that Nomisnia is also the goddess of disguises, fake beards, and open secrets.