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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Cetashwayo said:
Well obviously they accepted that the expedition will go forward. It was almost unanimous, and the expedition is not nearly as controversial as some of the other options.
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I imagine this is because all the demes can see the impact to our funds that the pirates unchecked would have plus the wealth and manpower a colony can add.
Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on Jun 8, 2019 at 7:20 PM, finished with 3103 posts and 55 votes.
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"Fuck pirates" is basically the one thing every civilization on the Mediterranean coast who aren't themselves pirates can agree on.
 
Anyway, not a lot of time tonight, so a quick vote:

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

"The words of austere Phokion and wise Glaukommes on the matter of honours for those great and small who have done a great service to our city are sound. As I have little to add to their wise words, I will only commend them, and lift my rock to add to their pile. It pleases me that the Ekkesia has seen also the merit in honouring our most worthy.

So too am I happy to see that we are prepared to plant the spear of war in the ground with fair Taras, and see it grow instead into a tree of peace. It would be ill if two cities who had so much in common ended up astranged, especially when the shepherds and Italians grow ever more restless. If the recent news from Hellas tells us anything, it is that war and mistrust are among the worst pestilences unleashed from the coffer of Pandora.

I would say but a little on the festivals we choose to adopt.

Let us remember that as well as an occasion for piety and devotion, our festivals are also an opportunity for celebration and levity. Whilst all the proposals before us are good, and we might wish that cruel Kronos had made the year twice as long so that we could adopt them all, some seem a greater occasion for jollity than others.

Can anyone truly say that it would not be an incredible spectacle, to see a mock sea battle between dolphins and krakens in the same harbour where brave Eusebios defeated fifty with three? To be able to bring one's children to enjoy fried squid and cuttlefish stew and watch our boldest rowers swim in the freezing depths, when the fare in the winter months is often so plain? And of course, to give thanks for our very deliverance across the waves, the only reason why Eretria stands here today.

Truly, the Conquest of the Sea seems to me as if it would be a joyous occasion, and a pious way to celebrate our deliverance across the waves.

So too with the the Courting of Ploutous. Whilst I have nothing but respect for the cult of Persephone, and the battle that our wives and sisters undergo in the birthing bed, I also have respect for those shrewd widows who carry on their husband's professions so their children can still see a roof above their heads. To celebrate prosperity in marriage would be a great way to honour the new year for Eretria, most prosperous of cities upon the Adriatic. It is a sign of our wealth and generosity that we give money to the poorest women, without husbands or brothers to support them.

So speaks Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios."
 
Anyone else kind of disappointed by Obander right now? The dude almost embarrassed us in Taras, and his whole Iron analogy left his diplomatic ally scratching his head and doubtful, as well as misrepresenting Eretrian goals for the future.

Thurii was worse than we thought, but Obander didn't seem to be able to handle it or salvage the situation, the entire alliance seems to hinge on them gaining Tarantine territory, otherwise we have more Athenian influence in the West, thankfully we have that, but it's a close run thing.

Finally he very much misrepresented the debate for the Honours, and is being soundly defeated thus far, and even criticised outright initially for it.

Hopefully Obander can reverse his course, because at the moment he's failed to impress me.
 
I mean, on the one hand you have Mnemnon, whose foreign policy accomplishments involved wrangling those in a subordinate position to Eretria and convincing a tribe at death's door that there is an alternative to dying, as well as securing the non-entrance into the war of Ausculos who while cunning is not really Eretria's equal.

On the other hand you have Obander who has to deal with, in a single year, five different Italiote cities who each consider themselves Eretria's equal in status if not in numbers, and then also Taras, all at the same time, and then has to juggle that with preparations for a conference in Sicily to help decide the fate of potentially entire western Greek world.

None of this is really to undermine Mnemnon's policy accomplishments, but Obander has a bit of a shit hand here. Arguably he also has to clean up the fallout of the war with Taras, whereas Mnemnon had a much simpler foreign policy situation.
 
I will note that awarding honors for distinguished service was a notable practice in Athens and Sparta alike. The Spartan officer Brasidas was given a Cenotaph beside the tomb of King Leonidas as well as a golden wreath by the city of Amphipolis as one notable example. The Athenians meanwhile gave out enough particular rewards to individual citizens that the inscriptions recording them are a major source of academic information about the city, and Socrates notably enraged his jury by suggesting that they award him some of the honors granted to military heroes.

So I really do not think that the award of distinction by acclamation is something unprecedented (and certainly not plausibly impious or an affront to the gods) or that it has much of anything to do with a course toward oligarchy or tyranny.
 
Obander is also in many ways trying to overcome the consequences of decades of Eretria neglecting the Italiote relationships in favour of the Adriatic interests.
 
The Sandman said:
Sorry, but I still have to vote for the choice that continues nudging us towards women being allowed to participate in public life rather than the one that reinforces tradition keeping them cloistered at home.

Also, a big public celebration linked to a mystery cult seems weird to me (using cult in the sense of "bit of polytheistic religion devoting itself to one particular deity and/or one particular manner of worship," not its modern meaning).
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That argument still chooses to demean the role of the homemaker which is still an important job that can and does take as much time and effort as a full time position.

You also cannot say that either festival tries to cloisters women away considering they are the very focus of these festivals and participants as well.

If anything the festival of Persephone is acknowledging the role women have in society and that being a housewife does not necessarily mean that they have no power. Look only towards Eudoxia of Taras or even our own Anysia of the Drakonids and how they rule their own houses.

The Ploutus festival restricts it to only the wealthy women and widows. Those that come from wealthy families and no longer have families. Is that not a worse role? That a woman only has social standing if she has money or without a husband? Does that not restrict the right of power to fewer women?
 
And I would remind that we are not Athens or Sparta, and that from the beginning we have weakened the position of the aristocracy relative to the common citizen.

If the people have the desire to be Athens or Sparta I will not gainsay them, but something deeply, truly Eretrian will be lost.
 
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You know what, I'll defend Obander a bit:

He his an Antipatrid, the whole point of his Demes is a more traditional focus on land and on hoplites. That's what was voted for when he was elected. Maybe the future of Eretria foreign policy will be somewhere else entirely. Many voters seem to believe it, with the Adriatic Empire have becoming something of a buzzword with many, but to simply assuming it will be the course history will take his kinda jumping the gun, IMO... Future votes and future events will determine what we don't know right now.

Similarly, his take on the debate for honours was kind of par for the course considering he first entered the public scene as an opponent of the cemetery of heroes.

As to Lokri and Thurii, we where warned that seeking alliance with Krotone would anger the latter, that's on the Ekklesia (i.e us) not Obander and Lokri being a syracusean ally, as well as a traditional ennemy of Krotone, was unlikely to be happy with us aniway.

He did, however, secure what needed to be secured in Rhegion, Metapontion and Krotone.

Overall we did get pretty rotten dices too.
 
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Metapontion 5d4+4=19 avg 15
Thurii 2d10+2 = 7 avg 13
Krotone 2d10+4 = 16 avg 15
Lokri 2d10+2 = 7 avg 13
Rhegion 5d4+3 = 15 avg 14
Taras 1 2d10+2 = 10 avg 13
Taras 2 2d10+4 = 15 avg 15

So 2 just above 1 average, 1 above average by a good margin, 1 average, 1 just below average and 2 below average by a good margin. Dice did him no favors there but we still got a good peace deal from Taras that opens the path to drawing closer together with them. Basically he had a bad hand (dice and position) but his own skill upped the results
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
McLuvin said:
Anyone else kind of disappointed by Obander right now? The dude almost embarrassed us in Taras, and his whole Iron analogy left his diplomatic ally scratching his head and doubtful, as well as misrepresenting Eretrian goals for the future.

Thurii was worse than we thought, but Obander didn't seem to be able to handle it or salvage the situation, the entire alliance seems to hinge on them gaining Tarantine territory, otherwise we have more Athenian influence in the West, thankfully we have that, but it's a close run thing.

Finally he very much misrepresented the debate for the Honours, and is being soundly defeated thus far, and even criticised outright initially for it.

Hopefully Obander can reverse his course, because at the moment he's failed to impress me.
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phil03 said:
You know what, I'll defend Obander a bit:

He his an Antipatrid, the whole point of his Demes is a more traditional focus on land and on hoplites. That's what was voted for when he was elected. Maybe the Eretria foreign policy will be somewhere else entirely. Many voters seem to believe it, with the Adriatic Empire have becoming something of a buzzword with many, but to simply assuming it will be the course history will take his kinda jumping the gun, IMO... Future votes and future events will determine what we don't know right now.

Similarly, his take on the debate for honours was kind of par for the course considering he first entered the public scene as an opponent of the cemetery of heroes.

As to Lokri and Thurii, we where warned that seeking alliance with Krotone would anger the latter, that's on the Ekklesia (i.e us) not Obander and Lokri being a syracusean ally, as well as a traditional ennemy of Krotone, was unlikely to be happy with us aniway.

He did, however, secure what needed to be secured in Rhegion, Metapontion and Krotone.

Overall we did get pretty rotten dices too.
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The dice weren't really that horrific, I think.

A 5d4 gives a minimum of 5 and a max of 20, the average is at 12.5 (evenly split between 12 and 13). This was used for Metapontion and Rhegion.
A 2d10 gives a minimum of 2 and a max of 20, the average is 11. This was used for Thurii, Krotone, Lokri Epixephyrii, and both times for Taras.

So below I tally the bolded actual results in a range compared to what was the floor, expected result and ceiling of outcomes.

Metapontion (5d4 + 4):
9 < 16.5 < 19 < 24
(2.5 better than expected)

Thurii (2d10 + 2):
4 < 7 < 13 < 22
(6 worse than expected)

Krotone (2d10 + 4):
6 < 15 < 16 < 24
(1 better than expected)

Lokri Epixephyrii (2d10 + 2):
4 < 7 < 13 < 22
(6 worse than expected)

Rhegion (5d4 + 3):
8 < 13.5 < 15 < 23
(1.5 better than expected)

Taras 1st (2d10 + 2):
4 < 10 < 13 < 22
(3 worse than expected)

Taras 2nd (2d10 + 4):
6 < 15 < 24
(Exactly expected)

Total:
41 < 89 < 99 < 161
(10 worse than expected)

Most of where we did worse was concentrated where we expected it to go with the relations that were either already hostile or that we knew beforehand would be damaged by the choices that we made, and in the case of Taras it seems that we still managed to do well enough to get peace on the table despite them.

I think Obander is doing a fairly reasonable job here, and although he does not have the nice words that a Drakonid faction member might have in reply for Telesphoros, had we elected the Drakonid faction it is entirely possible that we would not have even been there to speak of peace with Taras.
 
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The Sandman said:
I think that depends on how the Italiotes would feel after Memnonimania runs wild over their towns.
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I think Mnemnon would have done worse in the other city-states, but about as well in Krotone, where he probably would have recognized a fellow wrestler in Ajax and carried out the entire treaty negotiations while staying firmly in kayfabe.

The Sandman said:
"Fuck pirates" is basically the one thing every civilization on the Mediterranean coast who aren't themselves pirates can agree on.
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Yeah, the debate usually centers on how vigorously to do so, or on who gets to go do it this time.

Admiral Skippy said:
Fast forward a generation, and Eretrian democracy is taken over by an Honourable Lich Oligarchy!! :o

Plato studies the Necronomicon on a trip to Egypt mourning the death of his master, and realises that the ideal Republic is one led by a council of immortal Necromancer-Philosopher-Kings.

IT'S MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK
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OOC:

The Necronomicon, in Lovecraftian canon, wasn't written until the early 8th century CE. That is to say, closer to the time of Lovecraft's writing than to the misadventures of the Eretrians in our quest. :p

Ironanvil1 said:
Obander is also in many ways trying to overcome the consequences of decades of Eretria neglecting the Italiote relationships in favour of the Adriatic interests.
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Yeah. I kind of imagine Obander's reactions to the reception he got as being sort of, uh...

​

phil03 said:
I do feel that the very existence of the Hippeis Eskhata might potentially make the consequences of Sphacteria several order of magnitude worse for Sparta, something they can't really afford consider how close to complete collapse they brought Sparta in OTL.

Basically, Pylos almost sound like a tailor made assignment for Erasmos Dion. There he and his cavalry can pretty much be unleashed without second toughts, and any damages to Athens reputation, and told to do their worse, burning farm under the cheers of the hillotes, who suddenly both have a great occasion to make a run for it and place to make that run too, instead of the wails of free farmers and killing whatever overseers the spartan might have left around to prevent the Messenians to try anything.

Both the damages to the structure keeping the Messenians in bondage on a day to day basis and the demonstration that Sparta grip is slipping is likely to make even those Messenians not entering into contact with the athenian horsemens far bolder too. At the very least we could see attempts to flee to Pylos multiply compared to OTL and a full blown Messenian revolt is far from impossible.
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"You thought that the men trying to burn down the farms that feed your Spartiates were just angry rioting slaves. BUT IT WAS I, DION!"
 
The Sandman said:
I think that depends on how the Italiotes would feel after Memnonimania runs wild over their towns.
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The Xenoparakletor of Lokri refuses Memnon entry before the great gate to the city.

Memnon immediately puts him in a Slim Jim, then suplexes him into the ground, finishing of with the patented Memnon Pile Driver, as the people of Lokri look on.

Lokri immediately sends its unconditional submission to Eretria, and petitions for admission into the Epulian League.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
The Xenoparakletor of Lokri refuses Memnon entry before the great gate to the city.

Memnon immediately puts him in a Slim Jim, then suplexes him into the ground, finishing of with the patented Memnon Pile Driver, as the people of Lokri look on.

Lokri immediately sends its unconditional submission to Eretria, and petitions for admission into the Epulian League.
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picture: xenoparakletor Memnon

 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone.Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.
[X] [Winter] The Ascendency of Zeus Olympios.A monumental festival that celebrates the military victory of Zeus Olympios of the titans and the end of the titanomachia, the war against them. The ascendency has become increasingly popular in Eretria due to the influence of her olympic contestants who have been so shaken by the recently completed statue of Zeus at Olympia that have returned to their faith more vigorous than ever. The true supreme God of the Hellenes, Zeus deserves to be celebrated with vym and vigor in a military and civic parade. During the Ascendency, there is a battle among those representing the titans and olympians, with brawling and wooden swords, and a competition involving a ball which represents control of the heavens between two teams.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
Random Member said:
Dareios: "Children are annoying little brutes. How anyone can think that the noises they make is comparable to, let alone finer than, that of clinking coins is beyond me."
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Ahhh... but there lies the beauty of it my friend, for these children will grow up and will pay taxes, man the oars, join the hoplite, and make more children that would further bring the clinking coins to our beloved city. So always invest in children and help nurture and guide them to be good contributing members to our society.
 
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[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.


[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos.A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.


[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea.A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.


[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.

[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.

[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.

[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
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