Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
man this isn't even greek
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
man this isn't even greek
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Also, let's not dip into "kill them all", even in-character. As I've said in the past I'm not a fan of people using the in-character voice as an opportunity to advocate for genocide or mass killing or what-have-you. It is certainly a thing that happened but let's keep it out of player posting.
- Location
- Philippines
I don't know the ancient Greek of it. Just assume that Iskandar spoke Greek for the phrase there...
Regarding the kill em all, Iskandar is just very eager to solve the pirate threat and get back to making money.
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- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
Come to think of it, if we ally with Rhegion it is likely that we could have our navy focus more closely on operations in the Adriatic where we have a pirate problem. Whereas if we ally with Krotone, we shoulder more of the naval burden in southern regions of interest.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I don't know the ancient Greek of it. Just assume that Iskandar spoke Greek for the phrase there...
Regarding the kill em all, Iskandar is just very eager to solve the pirate threat and get back to making money.
I understand that but would ask players stray away from it.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
So 25,000 vs. 25,142 on land, and 75 vs. 102 on sea. It's certainly not the best odds to be facing down against an enemy with the better home-field advantage. We definitely need Krotone Hoplites on the field of battle.
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- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
I think you miscounted slightly on the Syrakousai side.
Currently, Syrakousai would fight with Syrakousai, Gela, and Akragas. So:
Sy. on Land: 10k + 6k + 7k = 23k
Sy. at Sea: 35 + 15 + 25 = 75 (25 proficient)
Meanwhile the Sikeliote League is with Rhegion (assuming we don't pull something like allying with Lokri Epixephyrii), Eretria, Thurii and Himera.
SL. on Land: 8k + 2.5k + 8.142k +4k + 2.5k = 25.142k
SL at Sea: 15 + 25 + 22 + 30 + 10 = 102 (47 proficient)
However, I do think that it's important to note that the side for Syrakousai is as you said with the home-field advantage. Our buddies are unlikely to be able to bring their full might to bear because especially Eretria and Thurii along with the better part of Rhegion are across the sea, increasing the cost of campaign as well as biting into campaign season with travel time that's likely to wear them out. Plus they have other threats to face which likely necessitate reserving some more of their forces at home, while the Syrakousai forces are all linked up in a row and can thus concentrate more fully on the external threat.
This is why I think it's incredibly important to secure Rhegion versus Sikeliote League ambition, they need all the local Sicilian support to be found so that the conference doesn't make Syrakousai ambitions come true and weight the numbers even more towards the opposing side. Furthermore, if we make Rhegion likely to flip by becoming the ally of its enemy in Lokri Epixephyrii, that leaves our proficient naval units outnumbered 2x by those of the other side.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Honestly, 'kill them all' really isnt Eretrias style anyway. Why would they kill you when they can pick a king and then make you filthy rich?
Also we have a habit of opting for peace when offered to us.
- Location
- nowhere
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
PyroTechno
The Procrastination Pokemon
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
I did. My eyes glazed over during a night-long lack of sleep and double-read 8,000.
Rhegion would be leaving it's back to Kroton, Thuras and Etretia, given the geographical setup, though.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Unless you're Bari
Because fuck Bari I guess?
Oh yeah, no, there's definitely been a lot of killing in Eretrian history and there will continue to be. I would just prefer the players don't do it because it always has a deleterious effect on empire-builder threads without exception.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
It looks like Krotone is winning. I encourage everyone to consider the political picture on Sicily for now; I know that there are some minor Italiote cities as a package deal with Krotone and those extra hoplites do look promising, but please please consider that that does not especially help our position at the Sicilian conference.
If Syrakousai wins big at the conference, the gains will be at the expense of the Sikeliote League and will deteriorate our position even as that of Syrakousai is strengthened. The reverse also holds true if we are able to get a good influence over the conference instead.
Krotone & Co. hold no significant sway in the conference, while Rhegion and the concept of limiting the expansion of the Sikeliote League except in the direction of Syrakousai does. Also, gains in hoplites from Krotone and its satellite cities will be somewhat compensated for by a loss of Thurii enthusiasm in our alliance. The Sikeliote League is kind of forced to be in our corner because otherwise they look like a weak picking against Syrakousai, but Thurii is further away, less invested in the conflict and by their rise. If we reconcile with Taras and make alliance with Krotone, Thurii doesn't have nearly as much reason to remain in our corner.
If Syrakousai wins big at the conference, the gains will be at the expense of the Sikeliote League and will deteriorate our position even as that of Syrakousai is strengthened. The reverse also holds true if we are able to get a good influence over the conference instead.
Krotone & Co. hold no significant sway in the conference, while Rhegion and the concept of limiting the expansion of the Sikeliote League except in the direction of Syrakousai does. Also, gains in hoplites from Krotone and its satellite cities will be somewhat compensated for by a loss of Thurii enthusiasm in our alliance. The Sikeliote League is kind of forced to be in our corner because otherwise they look like a weak picking against Syrakousai, but Thurii is further away, less invested in the conflict and by their rise. If we reconcile with Taras and make alliance with Krotone, Thurii doesn't have nearly as much reason to remain in our corner.
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Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Unless you're Bari
Because fuck Bari I guess?
I guess you could say that that whole affair was a bit ... em-Bari-ssing?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Theopilos the Younger returns from a bit of revelry with the Aoxenta and a number of younger citizens and metics, somehow having won three cows from the Aoxenta in the drunken competitions, and is riding on the back of one of said cows.
"Peace is good, my friend!" he says with the emphatic precision of the still inebriated, "Most of all peace won by strength. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to bring my noble steed back to the Aoxenta. To win a wager is a fine thing, but to win a friend is finer still."
(Because a bit of lighthearted humor seems appropriate for youthful antics.)
dontpressenter
Irrational Philosopher
- Location
- An alternate universe not unlike our own...
Ah. I think I see the point of disagreement here. I do not believe we can take peace in Italy for granted. But I do see your point of viewing Syrakousai as the greater threat. Yet I feel that Rhegion will be against Syrakousai anyway, even if we don't send our Xenoparakletor there. Hah, that may be me taking Rhegion for granted.
Ah, I shouldn't over speculate. We do not know if our entreaties to Taras will work, or how the Congress of Gela will play out. I still feel Krotone and its influence over the minor Italy cities is vital to secure the peace in Italy we need to look abroad without distraction.
I will still think on it.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
"Good evening, my fellow Hellans, and please, cease your groans. I have attained an epitaph for Long-Speaking, but I pray that you shall find my discussion enjoyable this night.
"On the matter before us, concerning the cattle drive, I truthfully care not. I believe that, in the end, we should imbune authority within King Artahias to organize this pledge of fealty. I can understand the worries that have been suggested, that we have no reason to trust this barbaroi King, and I agree fully. Why should we trust him? He comes before us, speaking proper Greek, but that hardly hints to any true loyalty.
"No my friends, we cannot trust in the man. What we can trust, however, is in the practicality. The Messapii have been dealt a blow to which they will not easily recover these last few decades. They have lost thousands upon thousands of men over time, constantly ground down by ceaseless attrition. They are shadows of their once true forms.
"Right now, the Messapii have a chance to breathe. A chance to grow and to recover their strength. Our hand is light upon them; they may practice their own laws, their own traditions, and more. All that we will ask is that they serve as our spear point in war while we serve as their shield. The Peuketti have learned and they have prospered. Egnatia, a once Messapii city, has learned and grown greatly.
"If this barbaroi King were to reject us? Then our boot will descend once again onto Messapii necks. They have been bested in war and will take generations to properly recover. If they were to fight us, the Messapii coalition will fly apart, north fighting south. None of the northern Messapii cities trust this King of the South and will likely look to the path of Egnatia were trouble to spark. Before we claimed exclusive overlordship in truth as well as deed, the Messapii were already beginning to splinter, Bretion and Caelia looking towards us. I see no reason for this trend to reverse; our size, our trade, and our proximity will draw them close, as Egnatia has already been, and it shall be in the mold they've made.
"For the south, however? They will be crushed. Even if we do not bother to sweep them from the field as we have in the past, Taras will. Their hungry eyes have always been set on dominance of the Sallantine peninsula. They will take by force that which our hand does not already possess. Taras will destroy them either in cooperation with us — provided our Xenoparkletor finds success in his mission next year — or in their avarice to acquire that which is ours.
"The only way that we could encounter issue were the Messapii to submit themselves to the Tarantine yoke. I'm sure Aoxtola will tell them of Tarantine mercy. Compared to our recognition and support, there is no rational choice.
"When it comes to the vote for our additional foreign policy option, I stand beside my earlier declaration; we should sweep the Illyrian pirates from the sea and establish a colony at Issa. The Demos Drakonia will establish a policy of immigration and colonialism; I see that as our only viable path to power in the future. Land and manpower and wealth are what make cities great. From those factors flow great temples, works of culture, skill at arms, and regional influence.
"By growing the Epulian League, we lay the seeds for lasting success. Colonies are small things at first, but they grow. Does not every man know the saying: 'Society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they will never enjoy?' These colonies shall be our trees. It will take decades, a lifetime, but by the time your sons are sitting here as elders, listening to a speaker droning on and on and on... they shall thank us for the cool protection we have provided and enjoy the sweetest fruits of our labours. New markets will be open to them, new ships added to our fleet, new hoplites will stand alongside us on the field of honour. We shall grow and within the Adriatic, there is room to grow for at least a century.
"Though... if I know the ambitions of the Demos Drakonia, I am not sure we even need decades to begin seeing true returns. Once our colonies begin to establish themselves, I suspect that the existing free cities of the Adriatic sea will soon find encouragement to join our side. Given Kerkyra's and Korinth's distraction, who else can they turn to for safe ports and succor from the pentakonters of pirates?
"For my last vote, I will cast my vote for Krotone as our ally. I do not like the fact that we will indirectly be stymieing an ally — such an action does not make for a good alliance, but it is necessary. Syrakousai is like one of those strange, screeching men that the Carthaginians have found. I heard from a merchant friend of mine that told me those screeching men with hand-feet, are powerful. One of them was able to overpower its trainer, tear his arm from his body, and then beat him to death with it.
"Syrakousai and their two allies is at a level of power that is virtually unknown in all the world. Of all the powers who compete within our sphere, I can think of four who could potentially claim peership: the Delian League, the Peloponnesian League, Carthage, and the Medes.
"We shall need every advantage on the field of battle and every arrow in our arsenal to oppose them.
"Rhegion has a strong incentive to oppose Syrakousai already. After the Sikeliote League, they are the first polis that would feel the wrath of a resurgent Syrakousai. The straits over which they have guardianship are of paramount importance to a truly powerful Sicilian polity. The trade revenues that make their way through Rhegion will be torn from bloody fingers by Syrakousai. Rhegion knows it; they dance upon a knife's edge. Any unity in Sicily means the yoke or annihilation.
"Seeking to ally Lokri would be a gamble. If we pull them away, we isolate Syrakousai from Magna Gracia. If. The success of our Xenoparkletor is not assured, despite his skill; we may find closed ears, unwilling to listen to reason. During Herodion's War in Sicily, we wounded Lokri and favoured Krotone above the. Their pride was injured and they remember that. Even then, assuming, for the argument, that he succeeds, what's stopping Syrakousai from trading up? They might be tempted to appeal to Krotone who could be encouraged to expand against Lokri and against our ally in Thurii.
"I simply see the risk of approaching Lokri to be high, but the benefits minimal. Even if we were successful, we may not necessarily isolate Syrakousai from Italia. If we are unsuccessful, then we risk having gained nothing while Syrakousai steals a march on us. Lokri limits themselves greatly by allying with us and risks Krotone being turned to a knife in their back.
"As it stands, Krotone is the least likely to support Syrakousai or oppose them without our intervention. While fine hoplites, they do not take to the waves in truth. They are also far removed from Syrakousai's influence, nearly as far as Thurii or Metaponton. They may think they have little to fear from a resurgent Syrakousai and a united Sicily. There is little with which they might compete with Syrakousai so why fight them? We need their numbers, however; the current anti-Syrakousai League barely out numbers the pro-Syrakousai faction and Syrakousai has numerous advantages due to their wealth and relative concentration of forces.
"If we approach Krotone, however, we can offer them much more. Thurii is our ally and could be made by extension Krotone's. That secures their northern flank and positions an enemy for them in the south in Lokri, someone whom is isolated and ripe to expand against. Lokri is surrounded by Krotone and Rhegon. With the relative naval superiority of the anti-Syrakousai alliance, they will be deeply isolated and faced with having to fight ourselves, Thurii, Krotone, and Rhegion. Syrakousai may be powerful, but all that power may do nothing for Lokri if they are still ground down under our spears.
"Further, even setting aside Krotone's efforts against Sicily, they will be the most direct benefit to us as a polis. They are closest and best poised to help us counter barbaroi migrations or to oppose wrath from Metaponton or Taras. In war, distance is time and makes the difference between life and death. Compared to distant Lokri and furthest Rhegion, Krotone is simply of greater use to us in more fields.
"It will cost us something to placate Thurii, but I suspect that our ambition to offer them Herakleia with Taras' consent next year will sate them for a time. They would not be able to expand along the coasts, but we have showed all Greeks that the coasts are not the only path to power. It is possible to attain Hegemonia over our barbaroi neighbours and turn their lands and their strengths to serve that of the polis. With Heraklia under their control, Thurii could expand against either the Bruttii or Lucani.
"It is for all these reasons that I believe Krontone to be the best polis to approach seeking friendship."
So says Leander.
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
"Good evening, my fellow Hellans, and please, cease your groans. I have attained an epitaph for Long-Speaking, but I pray that you shall find my discussion enjoyable this night.
"On the matter before us, concerning the cattle drive, I truthfully care not. I believe that, in the end, we should imbune authority within King Artahias to organize this pledge of fealty. I can understand the worries that have been suggested, that we have no reason to trust this barbaroi King, and I agree fully. Why should we trust him? He comes before us, speaking proper Greek, but that hardly hints to any true loyalty.
"No my friends, we cannot trust in the man. What we can trust, however, is in the practicality. The Messapii have been dealt a blow to which they will not easily recover these last few decades. They have lost thousands upon thousands of men over time, constantly ground down by ceaseless attrition. They are shadows of their once true forms.
"Right now, the Messapii have a chance to breathe. A chance to grow and to recover their strength. Our hand is light upon them; they may practice their own laws, their own traditions, and more. All that we will ask is that they serve as our spear point in war while we serve as their shield. The Peuketti have learned and they have prospered. Egnatia, a once Messapii city, has learned and grown greatly.
"If this barbaroi King were to reject us? Then our boot will descend once again onto Messapii necks. They have been bested in war and will take generations to properly recover. If they were to fight us, the Messapii coalition will fly apart, north fighting south. None of the northern Messapii cities trust this King of the South and will likely look to the path of Egnatia were trouble to spark. Before we claimed exclusive overlordship in truth as well as deed, the Messapii were already beginning to splinter, Bretion and Caelia looking towards us. I see no reason for this trend to reverse; our size, our trade, and our proximity will draw them close, as Egnatia has already been, and it shall be in the mold they've made.
"For the south, however? They will be crushed. Even if we do not bother to sweep them from the field as we have in the past, Taras will. Their hungry eyes have always been set on dominance of the Sallantine peninsula. They will take by force that which our hand does not already possess. Taras will destroy them either in cooperation with us — provided our Xenoparkletor finds success in his mission next year — or in their avarice to acquire that which is ours.
"The only way that we could encounter issue were the Messapii to submit themselves to the Tarantine yoke. I'm sure Aoxtola will tell them of Tarantine mercy. Compared to our recognition and support, there is no rational choice.
"When it comes to the vote for our additional foreign policy option, I stand beside my earlier declaration; we should sweep the Illyrian pirates from the sea and establish a colony at Issa. The Demos Drakonia will establish a policy of immigration and colonialism; I see that as our only viable path to power in the future. Land and manpower and wealth are what make cities great. From those factors flow great temples, works of culture, skill at arms, and regional influence.
"By growing the Epulian League, we lay the seeds for lasting success. Colonies are small things at first, but they grow. Does not every man know the saying: 'Society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they will never enjoy?' These colonies shall be our trees. It will take decades, a lifetime, but by the time your sons are sitting here as elders, listening to a speaker droning on and on and on... they shall thank us for the cool protection we have provided and enjoy the sweetest fruits of our labours. New markets will be open to them, new ships added to our fleet, new hoplites will stand alongside us on the field of honour. We shall grow and within the Adriatic, there is room to grow for at least a century.
"Though... if I know the ambitions of the Demos Drakonia, I am not sure we even need decades to begin seeing true returns. Once our colonies begin to establish themselves, I suspect that the existing free cities of the Adriatic sea will soon find encouragement to join our side. Given Kerkyra's and Korinth's distraction, who else can they turn to for safe ports and succor from the pentakonters of pirates?
"For my last vote, I will cast my vote for Krotone as our ally. I do not like the fact that we will indirectly be stymieing an ally — such an action does not make for a good alliance, but it is necessary. Syrakousai is like one of those strange, screeching men that the Carthaginians have found. I heard from a merchant friend of mine that told me those screeching men with hand-feet, are powerful. One of them was able to overpower its trainer, tear his arm from his body, and then beat him to death with it.
"Syrakousai and their two allies is at a level of power that is virtually unknown in all the world. Of all the powers who compete within our sphere, I can think of four who could potentially claim peership: the Delian League, the Peloponnesian League, Carthage, and the Medes.
"We shall need every advantage on the field of battle and every arrow in our arsenal to oppose them.
"Rhegion has a strong incentive to oppose Syrakousai already. After the Sikeliote League, they are the first polis that would feel the wrath of a resurgent Syrakousai. The straits over which they have guardianship are of paramount importance to a truly powerful Sicilian polity. The trade revenues that make their way through Rhegion will be torn from bloody fingers by Syrakousai. Rhegion knows it; they dance upon a knife's edge. Any unity in Sicily means the yoke or annihilation.
"Seeking to ally Lokri would be a gamble. If we pull them away, we isolate Syrakousai from Magna Gracia. If. The success of our Xenoparkletor is not assured, despite his skill; we may find closed ears, unwilling to listen to reason. During Herodion's War in Sicily, we wounded Lokri and favoured Krotone above the. Their pride was injured and they remember that. Even then, assuming, for the argument, that he succeeds, what's stopping Syrakousai from trading up? They might be tempted to appeal to Krotone who could be encouraged to expand against Lokri and against our ally in Thurii.
"I simply see the risk of approaching Lokri to be high, but the benefits minimal. Even if we were successful, we may not necessarily isolate Syrakousai from Italia. If we are unsuccessful, then we risk having gained nothing while Syrakousai steals a march on us. Lokri limits themselves greatly by allying with us and risks Krotone being turned to a knife in their back.
"As it stands, Krotone is the least likely to support Syrakousai or oppose them without our intervention. While fine hoplites, they do not take to the waves in truth. They are also far removed from Syrakousai's influence, nearly as far as Thurii or Metaponton. They may think they have little to fear from a resurgent Syrakousai and a united Sicily. There is little with which they might compete with Syrakousai so why fight them? We need their numbers, however; the current anti-Syrakousai League barely out numbers the pro-Syrakousai faction and Syrakousai has numerous advantages due to their wealth and relative concentration of forces.
"If we approach Krotone, however, we can offer them much more. Thurii is our ally and could be made by extension Krotone's. That secures their northern flank and positions an enemy for them in the south in Lokri, someone whom is isolated and ripe to expand against. Lokri is surrounded by Krotone and Rhegon. With the relative naval superiority of the anti-Syrakousai alliance, they will be deeply isolated and faced with having to fight ourselves, Thurii, Krotone, and Rhegion. Syrakousai may be powerful, but all that power may do nothing for Lokri if they are still ground down under our spears.
"Further, even setting aside Krotone's efforts against Sicily, they will be the most direct benefit to us as a polis. They are closest and best poised to help us counter barbaroi migrations or to oppose wrath from Metaponton or Taras. In war, distance is time and makes the difference between life and death. Compared to distant Lokri and furthest Rhegion, Krotone is simply of greater use to us in more fields.
"It will cost us something to placate Thurii, but I suspect that our ambition to offer them Herakleia with Taras' consent next year will sate them for a time. They would not be able to expand along the coasts, but we have showed all Greeks that the coasts are not the only path to power. It is possible to attain Hegemonia over our barbaroi neighbours and turn their lands and their strengths to serve that of the polis. With Heraklia under their control, Thurii could expand against either the Bruttii or Lucani.
"It is for all these reasons that I believe Krontone to be the best polis to approach seeking friendship."
So says Leander.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
@Cetashwayo : I just noticed this on reviewing your post. The new "Excess of Heroes" update gives the updated commerce value of 83.3 talents to reflect the new two trade routes in cattle in the Treasury & Income tab. However, in the Trade tab it still gives the old commerce revenue of 69.8 talents. Just wanted to point that out in case you're iterating off of the most recent update's numbers.
I think we are in a fairly secure position in Italy, should we wisely choose our battles. With our proxenoi we should be able to more easily catch wind of anything in the southwest and defuse tensions there before they build up or play them off each other should they occur, and so long as we preserve the Dauni as a buffer in the north we don't have that much contact with the really scary barbaroi. If we can secure peace with Taras then the only really hair-raising enemy that we border are the Lukani; they should be manageable in either case because if Taras agrees to the deal then we'll have the Thurii also having a border with the Lukani via Herakleia Lukania, and if the deal with Taras falls through then Metapontion will likely be pretty pliable. If we try to collapse the border with the Dauni and expand as far as we can against the barbaroi there then I think we'd run into trouble, but that's not really my intention here.
Whereas Syrakousai is definitely out for our blood from our initial choices and will become a monster if left unattended. It's the most hostile and strongest of our enemies and also surrounded by Greeks who don't have particularly strong citizenship ties and are easily assimilated, unlike the majority of the Hellenic world. The numbers are already daunting as it is; if the conference goes well for Syrakousai, I'm afraid that credible local opposition in Sicily will be extinguished. Outside of Carthage, anyway, but we missed our window to easily ally with them already and by doing that we'd burn bridges with most of the western Greeks we just became pals with.
I do hope you'll join in supporting Rhegion; it's not so much about ensuring that they support the conference (although I'm sure they'll do it more enthusiastically as they could more fully commit against Lokri and Syrakousai if they don't have to look over their shoulder as much to see if the Sikeliote League is about to backstab them), but supporting a balance of power in Sicily more tolerable to small states that we'd want to sway to our side. If we have Rhegion as an ally, the Sikeliote League basically has to give up on the straits of Messina so long as it wants help against Syrakousai (and it really badly does right now given the force distribution). That means it can't conquer Messana and then think about going for Mylai and Lipara and on, and since the Sikeliote League has less chances to become stronger except by bashing up against Syrakousai and the power is distributed more evenly around the coalition, neutral powers like Selinous can find it as more palatable to support without worry that they're creating the next titan. Up until the balance of power shifts in favor of the Sikeliote League and then they shift sides, but if such a thing happens then Syrakousai as the closet target to them will have been terribly devastated and they're the only ones with a major grudge against us. Then it's just a matter of maintaining balance of power.
Edit: I wish terribly that I didn't have work tomorrow, this vote is extremely important and I hope I may sway the result.
I think we are in a fairly secure position in Italy, should we wisely choose our battles. With our proxenoi we should be able to more easily catch wind of anything in the southwest and defuse tensions there before they build up or play them off each other should they occur, and so long as we preserve the Dauni as a buffer in the north we don't have that much contact with the really scary barbaroi. If we can secure peace with Taras then the only really hair-raising enemy that we border are the Lukani; they should be manageable in either case because if Taras agrees to the deal then we'll have the Thurii also having a border with the Lukani via Herakleia Lukania, and if the deal with Taras falls through then Metapontion will likely be pretty pliable. If we try to collapse the border with the Dauni and expand as far as we can against the barbaroi there then I think we'd run into trouble, but that's not really my intention here.
Whereas Syrakousai is definitely out for our blood from our initial choices and will become a monster if left unattended. It's the most hostile and strongest of our enemies and also surrounded by Greeks who don't have particularly strong citizenship ties and are easily assimilated, unlike the majority of the Hellenic world. The numbers are already daunting as it is; if the conference goes well for Syrakousai, I'm afraid that credible local opposition in Sicily will be extinguished. Outside of Carthage, anyway, but we missed our window to easily ally with them already and by doing that we'd burn bridges with most of the western Greeks we just became pals with.
I do hope you'll join in supporting Rhegion; it's not so much about ensuring that they support the conference (although I'm sure they'll do it more enthusiastically as they could more fully commit against Lokri and Syrakousai if they don't have to look over their shoulder as much to see if the Sikeliote League is about to backstab them), but supporting a balance of power in Sicily more tolerable to small states that we'd want to sway to our side. If we have Rhegion as an ally, the Sikeliote League basically has to give up on the straits of Messina so long as it wants help against Syrakousai (and it really badly does right now given the force distribution). That means it can't conquer Messana and then think about going for Mylai and Lipara and on, and since the Sikeliote League has less chances to become stronger except by bashing up against Syrakousai and the power is distributed more evenly around the coalition, neutral powers like Selinous can find it as more palatable to support without worry that they're creating the next titan. Up until the balance of power shifts in favor of the Sikeliote League and then they shift sides, but if such a thing happens then Syrakousai as the closet target to them will have been terribly devastated and they're the only ones with a major grudge against us. Then it's just a matter of maintaining balance of power.
Please consider the conference. If we do not win there, Syrakousai can gain massively at the expense of the Sikeliote League. Gaining hoplites from Krotone on the one hand while also losing some from Thurii becoming more disgruntled than otherwise cannot account for that imbalance; particularly as Krotone is far from Sicily, increasing the expense of foreign campaigning even as the season for it is shortened by hard travel. They must also spare some of their warriors to defend from the depradations of the Brutii, while the only hostile force Rhegion borders is Lokri, an ally of Syrakousai, so they may fully commit what men they have.
Edit: I wish terribly that I didn't have work tomorrow, this vote is extremely important and I hope I may sway the result.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Thanks, fixed.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
One last thing before I go to sleep, just noticed your edit.
Look to the map again. Rhegion and its satellites straddle Sicily and Italy. It only borders four entities: neutral Mylai and the Sikels as well as the Sikeliote League and Lokri Epixephyrii. If we make it a solid ally so that the Sikeliote League has to back off, it can dedicate almost all of its power to Lokri Epixephyrii on land and deploy its substantial navy (larger than ours!) as it pleases. This puts its army in the same direction that Taras and Krotone could conceivably come from (though I'm not sure why they would if we have peace with the former and haven't antagonized the other). Or if we have those handled due to Eretria and Thurii coming on down the boot and laying waste to our intimidating the Lokrians out of the fight, it can use its huge navy to deploy where it wants to.
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