Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Citizens! Lend me your ears, for I have words!

Almighty Zeus already chastised us for interrupting the work on the Hill of the Divine Marriage even to defend ourselves. Now Athenagoras Symmachos and Mnemnon Keylonos would purposefully seek out war? Athenagoras of Demos Drakonia advocating a policy that commits us to one war for the isle of Issa and risks war to pull Kerkyra from the grasp of Korinthos and Athens. Athenagoras, where have your wise policies of 4 years ago gone? Did you hear the talk of the ambitions we have for the Eretria of our grandchildren and think we would be impressed by delivering these ambitions sooner? Well I am not impressed! And certainly not when Zeus has made his displeasure for the pause in building righteous houses for the gods so clear! To propose such reckless policies when naval patrols are so necessary is especially disappointing.

Athenagoras, Mnemnon, your policies would be wise in another year, if you come again before the Ekklesia with such policies you may receive my support. But not this term. This term, as Obander is the only candidate who does not seek war, to heed Zeus' warning, he is who I must support.

And though I wonder if it is too soon to reach out to Taras, Obander's idea to place proxenoi in the other Italiote cities is in my view the single most excellent policy proposed by any of the candidates, so while we must neglect the Adriatic and the Barbaroi, Obander will still take the city forward I feel.

Epiktetos Linos, Kyros Gennadios, Theron Archippos - you all suggest wise goals for your terms as Proboulos, I find it hard to choose between your proposals as you each seek to do things that are useful. Even so, you each propose some things less wise than your other goals I feel. Epiktetos, I believe it unseemly to honour Prometheus before Krios and perhaps risky when Zeus is so tetchy. Kyros, the madness of the Pythagoreans when faced with beans and certain kinds of root is known, I say we do not need these mad cultists in pious Eretria. Theron, I worry at bringing in so many poor Metics when Athenagoras is proposing such impious policies. Demos Exoria would be wise to consider policies for how to settle the poorest Metics so that, through hard work and the blessings of fortune they may become proud citizens of Eretria's daughter colonies.

As things are, I stand on a blade's edge between the proposals of Demos Exoria and Demos Antipatria for Proboulos. In the end, I think the cattle market and temple of Artemis Theron proposes, not to mention the needed calendar reform, are the most useful, though I yearn so much for the grand temple to Apollo and Athena that Kyros speaks of! To those who watch over the accounts of the Polis, can we not afford both a better temple for the Divine Marriage AND a temple to Artemis?

For now, this is who I feel I must vote for:

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes!

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

fasquardon said:

Citizens! Lend me your ears, for I have words!

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AFAIK he has the Grand Mantis's words, not his own

I probably said that OOC

As far as the rest of the people not voting the way I did, well, fair enough. If I were to get my way all the time, we could hardly call this a democracy.

We clearly have differences in priority and opinion. Let us hope that, whatever the outcome, Eretria shall prosper.

Once again I raise the question of what the Exorian advocates intend to do with the large population of menial laborers with no particular affection for the city that they wish to import. Their immigration policy is, as I have said previously, unwise. Unless you wish to provide a ready-made base of support for the same sort of coup as just overthrew the democracy of Kerkyra, I suppose.

Further, as previously stated, the addition of the Pythagoreans will be of great use to any tasks requiring mathematics we might need to perform in the future. Such as, for example, planning for the needs of a great cattle drive from our barbaroi tributaries, or determining how to reform our calendar so that festivals stay in their proper place.

And military reform as well is a topic best considered now, when we have the experience of a war so recent in our minds but have no campaign so immediate that we would not have time to implement any such reform we might settle upon.

I think the Exorian proboulid platform a fine one, excepting of course the madness of their immigration policy. But it is a platform that would be far better implemented after the Antipatrids have laid the necessary foundations for it.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios.

And as a personal matter, once the elections have been decided I shall be away from the polis for some time, I think. After my recent visit to Brention on the way home from the war, I noticed something that made me think a visit to Delos or Rhodes to ask some questions of the smiths there might be of immense future benefit to all of Epulia. Possibly to Carthage as well, en route to the great congress to be held on Sicelia; my questions might also have answers there, and it would be good to take stock of where the Punics stand regarding hostilities between the Sikeliotes and Syracuse.

The Sandman said:

Once again I raise the question of what the Exorian advocates intend to do with the large population of menial laborers with no particular affection for the city that they wish to import. Their immigration policy is, as I have said previously, unwise. Unless you wish to provide a ready-made base of support for the same sort of coup as just overthrew the democracy of Kerkyra, I suppose.

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One thing I will say is that the "loyalty" of the metics who come through the agents recruited by Demos Antipatria is a little overstated, and it should probably be changed to affinity for the next election cycle; that they're recruiting mostly from Ionians and especially from Euboaea and the Chalkidike. We're not talking about giving them citizenship tests or something here, and it gives a false impression that the other metic immigration types are implicitly disloyal.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

>Cite need to influence our neighbors by improving our cultural traditions
>Vote to renovate and expand our cultural monuments
>Build cultural monument to goddess that is popularized by our neighbors

Dammit Exoria, you're doing it backwards.

Which isn't a surprise, because Exoria reads like the worst party to me for culture building, or at least for Hellenic culture building. It's just not who the Exoria are. Demes aren't just collections of policy, they are interest groups and the policies are just the things the interest groups say they want to go for. Is appealing to the barbaroi something a Temple of Artemis can do? Yes. And that's probably the reason why Exoria wants it. The question is though... should we?

The Temple choice is a cultural one, but Exoria is a party that's pretty willing to ignore cultural implications for the strategic advantage of appealing to the Iagyges. It's very SV of them. As our military and barbaroi-oriented party, this is just how they roll, as opposed to the Antipatrids - who are basically our classical Greek party and the people who you should go to for the sake of cultural enhancement and export. It's also why I'm skeptical of the Exoria's religious policy. It isn't that I don't see the value of organizing our festivals - I think it's a good idea - I'm just skeptical of the Exoria being the ones in charge of organizing it and I can't cast a vote for the Grand Mantis to specifically be Antipatrid.

Eretria Eskhata has this long noted problem of being kinda shitty Hellenes, because SV are kinda shitty Hellenes. The Exoria also aren't that great of Hellenes. Really not a surprise that their xenoparakletor candidate is a guy we didn't want to represent us to Metapontion. If you put them in charge of culture, you're... well you won't get bad results because they're not incompetent, but you sure won't be getting a properly Hellenic result.

Also, out of personal interest, how open are the temples? Is access limited to citizens-only, or Greeks only? Or is it that anybody allowed in the city can go and pay homage?

Stealthy said:

>Cite need to influence our neighbors by improving our cultural traditions
>Vote to renovate and expand our cultural monuments
>Build cultural monument to goddess that is popularized by our neighbors

Dammit Exoria, you're doing it backwards.

Which isn't a surprise, because Exoria reads like the worst party to me for culture building, or at least for Hellenic culture building. It's just not who the Exoria are. Demes aren't just collections of policy, they are interest groups and the policies are just the things the interest groups say they want to go for. Is appealing to the barbaroi something a Temple of Artemis can do? Yes. And that's probably the reason why Exoria wants it. The question is though... should we?

The Temple choice is a cultural one, but Exoria is a party that's pretty willing to ignore cultural implications for the strategic advantage of appealing to the Iagyges. It's very SV of them. As our military and barbaroi-oriented party, this is just how they roll, as opposed to the Antipatrids - who are basically our classical Greek party and the people who you should go to for the sake of cultural enhancement and export. It's also why I'm skeptical of the Exoria's religious policy. It isn't that I don't see the value of organizing our festivals - I think it's a good idea - I'm just skeptical of the Exoria being the ones in charge of organizing it and I can't cast a vote for the Grand Mantis to specifically be Antipatrid.

Eretria Eskhata has this long noted problem of being kinda shitty Hellenes, because SV are kinda shitty Hellenes. The Exoria also aren't that great of Hellenes. Really not a surprise that their xenoparakletor candidate is a guy we didn't want to represent us to Metapontion. If you put them in charge of culture, you're... well you won't get bad results because they're not incompetent, but you sure won't be getting a properly Hellenic result.

Also, out of personal interest, how open are the temples? Is access limited to citizens-only, or Greeks only? Or is it that anybody allowed in the city can go and pay homage?

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Artemis is still a Greek goddess, it's not some crazy out there thing to build her a temple in the Hellenic world. Our weird fixation on the Divine marriage is a bit hair-raising, though, and that's what the Antipatrids want.

We're a bit different from the circumstances of our history, and that's reflected to some extent or another in all factions. Though I will admit that I'm not incredibly concerned about the temples compared to those sweet trade routes and tariff efficiency.

"Shitty Hellenes" is a pretty unfair and vapid characterisation of Eretria, I think. For one thing, there is a massive amount of variation between say, Sparta, Athens, Thebes, and Korinthos. So the idea of there being only one ideal to aspire is just an oversimplification to start with. It's a complicated picture.

Eretria has developed many fascinating cultural adaptations of her own, as her culture has grown and evolved. Like our incredibly low reliance on slavery, for one thing. Personally, I'm quite happy with that, as I'm also happy with our interesting innovations in commerce and government, our Divine Marriages, and in our sacred elite units. Obviously, we may all be interested in or want different things in terms of culture, and that's fine. But let's not denigrate all the achievements of the Quest and the last two, whilst we're at it.

Moreover, whilst it's more or less nonexistent to start with, the True Hellenic Ideal also ends up with "Get Conquered By Macedonian Warlords and Swamp Hicks". So quite frankly, I'm happy with doing something a bit different. Cultures need to evolve and change, we can't hew to some sort of dead ideal. The Antipatrids aren't actually doing that either, in fairness. They too want to see Eretria evolve.

The Exorian slate gives our culture fascinating growth and development, snycretising with some of the religious traditions of our barbaroi friends, just as they Hellenise in turn. The Divine Union of Artemis and Orion promises to add another fascinating chapter to our rich divine shipping religious tradition. This does not make us any less Hellenic, in my eyes, it simply makes us more interesting, more distinctive, more devout, more Eretrian.

Admiral Skippy said:

"Shitty Hellenes" is a pretty vapid characterisation of Eretria, I think. For one thing, there is a massive amount of variation between say, Sparta, Athens, Thebes, and Korinthos. The idea of there being only one ideal is just an oversimplification to start with. It's a complicated picture.

Eretria has developed many fascinating cultural adaptations of her own, as our culture grows and evolves. Like our incredibly low reliance on slavery, just for one thing. Personally, I'm quite happy with that, as I'm also happy with our interesting innovations in commerce and government, our Divine Marriages, and in our sacred elite units. Obviously, we may all be interested in or want different things in terms of culture, and that's fine, but let's not denigrate all the achievements of the Quest and the last two before it whilst we're at it.

Moreover, whilst it's more or less nonexistent to start with, the True Hellenic Ideal also ends up with "Get Conquered By Macedonian Warlords and Swamp Hicks". So quite frankly, I'm happy with doing something a bit different. Cultures need to evolve and change, we can't hew to some sort of dead ideal. The Antipatrids aren't actually doing that either, in fairness. They too want to see Eretria evolve.

The Exorian slate gives our culture fascinating growth and development, snycretising with some of the religious traditions of our barbaroi friends, just as they Hellenise in turn. The Divine Union of Artemis and Orion promises to add another fascinating chapter to our rich divine shipping religious tradition. This does not make us any less Hellenic, in my eyes, it simply makes us more interesting, more distinctive, more devout, more Eretrian.

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On an OOC level, I really would like to see the Pythagoreans come into play in Eretria, just because of the prominence of women in the cult -- that gives us the opportunity for female POV characters and a perspective into preclassical Greek domestic life we wouldn't otherwise get, and is missing from a lot of the typical Greek narratives.

Indecision time
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

Secretariat said:

On an OOC level, I really would like to see the Pythagoreans come into play in Eretria, just because of the prominence of women in the cult -- that gives us the opportunity for female POV characters and a perspective into preclassical Greek domestic life we wouldn't otherwise get, and is missing from a lot of the typical Greek narratives.

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That's true, and I really like the Pythagoreans as well, I just don't think it's as time-critical to our circumstances right now, post-war, and the oppurtunity to engage in joint worship with Artemis, as I've explained. The Pythagoreans are not going anywhere soon, whilst the gains to stronger trade and religious ties are the better the sooner we begin.

In all honesty if we want more insight into women's lives in Eretria, some side-stories written from that perspective would be great! The opening with Eudoxia in Taras was also excellent, I thought. Really showed how behind the scenes, women can still be extremely influential, despite the limitations placed upon them.

As @Cetashwayo said in response to @Spacegnom's insightful question, with the close vote here and the likelihood of quite a lot of Antipatrid officers, it's entirely possible we will still see the Pythagoreans in this boule.

Actually, pretty sure this is the period when the Pythagorean cult collapsed IOTL. So no, they may very well not still be around in any coherent form by the next time the subject comes up.

Heliodoros simply won't have a single deme have both roles. He doesn't like the idea of dominance by a single faction, and since Antipatria had the only suitable foreign policy, he looked elsewhere for the domestic.

The Sandman said:

Actually, pretty sure this is the period when the Pythagorean cult collapsed IOTL. So no, they may very well not still be around in any coherent form by the next time the subject comes up.

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The historical circumstances which led to that have not occurred in our timeline, thankfully. Right now, the Pythagorean cult is flourishing across Italia, and that looks set to continue well into the future. This came up a bit earlier in the thread:

Secretariat said:

@Cetashwayo, what is the situation of the Pythagorean Cult at this time? This seems to be about the time they're getting persecuted throughout Italia, but period sources on this seem to be a bit sparse.

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Cetashwayo said:

The cult was targeted during a period of upheaval and political chaos in Magna Graecia which never happened, so they are still flourishing and influential. The center of the Pythagorean cult in Italia is Metapontion, but it doesn't seem to have caught on strongly in Eretria.

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We can probably look forward to seeing the Pythagoreans and their rich contributions to philosophy and mathematics for decades to come, which is wonderful. Another example of Eretria having had a positive impact on Italia, along with our furthering of of diplomacy between cities.

Admiral Skippy said:

The historical circumstances which led to that have not occurred in our timeline, thankfully. Right now, the Pythagorean cult is flourishing across Italia, and that looks set to continue well into the future. This came up a bit earlier in the thread:

Secretariat said:

@Cetashwayo, what is the situation of the Pythagorean Cult at this time? This seems to be about the time they're getting persecuted throughout Italia, but period sources on this seem to be a bit sparse.

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Cetashwayo said:

The cult was targeted during a period of upheaval and political chaos in Magna Graecia which never happened, so they are still flourishing and influential. The center of the Pythagorean cult in Italia is Metapontion, but it doesn't seem to have caught on strongly in Eretria.

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We can probably look forward to seeing the Pythagoreans and their rich contributions to philosophy and mathematics for decades to come, which is wonderful. Another example of Eretria having had a positive impact on Italia, along with our furthering of of diplomacy between cities.

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Well, we are about to play kingmakers in a war between the Sikeliotes and Syracuse...

The Pythagoreans are not popular in Sicily anyway. It is almost entirely an Italian thing.

Admiral Skippy said:

"Shitty Hellenes" is a pretty breathtakingly vapid characterisation of Eretria, I think. For one thing, there is a massive amount of variation between say, Sparta, Athens, Thebes, and Korinthos. The idea of there being only one ideal is just a massive oversimplification, which more or less

Eretria has developed many fascinating cultural adaptations of her own, as its culture grows and evolves. Like our incredibly low reliance on slavery, just for one thing. Personally, I'm quite happy with that, as I'm also happy with our interesting innovations in commerce and government, our Divine Marriages, and in our sacred elite units. Obviously, we may all be interested in or want different things in terms of culture, and that's fine, but let's not denigrate all the achievements of the Quest and the last two before it whilst we're at it.

Moreover, whilst it's more or less nonexistent to start with, the True Hellenic Ideal also ends up with "Get Conquered By Macedonian Warlords and Swamp Hicks". So quite frankly, I'm happy with doing something a bit different. Cultures need to evolve and change, we can't hew to some sort of dead ideal. The Antipatrids aren't actually doing that either, in fairness. They too want to see Eretria evolve.

The Exorian slate gives our culture fascinating growth and development, snycretising with some of the religious traditions of our barbaroi friends, just as they Hellenise in turn. The Divine Union of Artemis and Orion promises to add another fascinating chapter to our rich divine shipping religious tradition. This does not make us any less Hellenic, in my eyes, it simply makes us more, more distinctive, more devout, more Eretrian.

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Yeah, I was being too flippant on my phrasing there. My bad.

And yes, it's been well established that the cultural traditions of Greeks vary quite a bit between the different cities. But it's also been well established that Eretria is in an uncanny valley of Hellenic culture, where we push the boundaries of what's accepted. Or at least we were. Maybe we got out in the intervening 34 years. Some of those tendencies are fun and whimsical and who cares if we're weird, like our lithocracy. Some are to our great advantage, like our Sacred Bands, our diplomatic apparatus, and other such things. I think that also goes for our barbaroi allies, as I don't think pet barbaroi vassals are all that big elsewhere. Or at least not to our extent.

I suppose the worry may be overstated at this point, because the city's been around for like sixty years now and the secret would have gotten out, but there's that bit of worry about drifting too far from the Hellenic Ideal not because the Hellenic Ideal is some beautiful peach of a cultural identity, but because we can't alienate our fellow Greeks by making them feel we've gone native. I recall a line to that effect back pre-war when Metapontion was demanding we send our xenoparakletor to meet with them to secure their neutrality. To say nothing of the fact that we had a xenoparakletor who I wasn't really comfortable representing Eretria to other Hellenes. Exoria isn't a deme that will worry about that uncanny valley, because they live in it. They have military and barbaroi-focused platforms and are focused on Eretria's immediate surroundings. The uncanny valley suits them fine for accomplishing these goals. In fact, it's quite useful as Mnemnon showed.

I think my objection to Exoria as cultural stewards is summed up as what I think we both agree on: they are a party of assimilation. Not just Iapyges assimilating (which all parties desire), but they're also quite open to Eretria assimilating. Eh. On some issues, certainly. We (and by we I mean Greeks) have our failings and should adapt to transcend them.

But I don't see the next step of our cultural evolution as more blending with the locals and yet another round in the melting pot. I don't see the next step of our cultural evolution being the creation of more weird unique traditions. We've paid our dues there, and if I want more I will totally look to Exorian cultural policy (or not, and let thread just do its thing because we can handle that on our own).

Our next step needs to be waving our damn flag.

A while ago (I think first iteration?) the Divine Union had some popularity elsewhere in Magna Graecia, but it died out because Eretria is a cultural backwater that couldn't keep the cult following going. We have uniqueness in spades. That has never been our obstacle. Our issue is foreign adoption. Our issue is that in two thousand years, nobody's going to be reading Eretrian propaganda completely accurate mythological accounts. Hell, nobody outside the city is reading them now. The Exorians are a very practical party. That's quite a lot of their appeal - particularly in this Temple choice. They aren't interested in cultural enrichment for the sake of enrichment, nor do they prioritize the value of a larger cultural footprint.

The Antipatrids? They do. Because they are the more Classical Hellenistic party (though I need a more accurate descriptor). They have that bug that craves fine culture that's part of a broader Greek identity. They have that bit of stubborn Greek Patriotism that will take parts of Eretrian culture and enshrine it and spread its glory. That's what their temple choice does. It takes the choice that is most core to Eretrian Identity and makes it more glorious so more people will speak of its beauty abroad and come to see it.

I don't want the Antipatrids to completely revert us. That's not the point either, and would also be rather destructive. Cultural distinction matters. The goal isn't a Traditional Hellene Ideal, but a Reformed Hellene Ideal, where we take the bits of Hellenic culture that are just baked in and/or worthwhile, toss out what sucks, and improve. I don't want to tumble further down the uncanny valley at this point. I want to anchor ourselves. I want to climb out a bit not by tossing out what we've already built, but by enhancing the desirable parts of the Hellenic ideal. And I want to put us in a position where we can influence the wider Greek world (or at least our half of it).

We don't need more Eretrian weirdness. We need Greeks to get more Eretrian. I don't just want Messapii to start giving thanks to Apollo kon Athene, I want Taras to. We need better weirdness. As it is now, that is a job only the Antipatrids are interested in. And it's just not what Exoria's about.

(Also, was it confirmed that the Temple will be for the Pairing, or is it just Artemis?)

Fundamentally, I feel this is misguided, although of course in part it may come down to finding different things interesting.

Fundamentally, I think assimilation is interesting, and also vital, because our barbaroi allies are one of our greatest strengths, and we have the very rare opportunity to make them more than just tributaries, but true allies in the sense of being part of a shared corporate identity. I also find the cultural options fascinating, in terms of joint religious festivals, and all our fascinating little local rites, like the Running of the Weasels.

The idea that the Temple of the Divine Marriage would be notable throughout the Greek world is a little silly, as has been discussed. It would require an order of magnitude more money for that. Of course it would be nice, but then all of our Temples will be great monuments to our faith. Artemis is actually sacred to Eretria going way back, so it's hardly as if we aren't waving our flag here. We're waving it proudly.

If we want to really promote the cult of the Divine Marriage amonst fellow Greeks, we should look for an oppurtunity that really does do that well; not sacrifice an incredible time-limited opportunity for strengthening ties with our barbaroi, developing our culture, and gaining a great deal of commerce and revenue for a marginal gain.

1. It is just Artemis.
2. Artemis is actually the single most important Goddess to Old Eretria. Artemis Amarysia had an Artemision temple on the island of Euboaea where old Eretria was, and it was the most grand of all the temples of the region.
3. The Antipatrids are the advocate of cleaving to the traditions of Eretria's founding which is not the same thing as integrating them with the rest of Hellas.

Admiral Skippy said:

Fundamentally, I feel this is misguided, although of course in part it may come down to finding different things interesting.

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Possibly!

I deleted the paragraph because it didn't flow well, but one of the things I'm rather interested in in this area of the quest is improving Greek co-operation without going anachronistic. Assimilation is good and we've done quite a bit of it, I just think this is one of those moments where we hold off.

And yeah, obviously this is not the Eretrian Parthenon we're talking about. I'm with Cav where I totally want to do that eventually, but I understand baby steps.

It is probably one of the best single opportunities for assimilation we will get in the game, because of a really fortuitous combination of circumstances, so deliberately holding off would be a real missed moment, I think.

Improved diplomacy between Greek city-states is great, which is what we're doing with the Antipatrid foreign policy slate. The difference a Temple of the Divine Marriage versus a Temple of Artemis will make towards diplomacy between Greek Cities in Italy is basically nonexistent.

The Exoria domestic slate is very appealing for the cultural paths it could lead us down, but I think the Antipatrid importation of the Pythagoreans could lead to fascinating results in terms of blending their unusual stance on gender with our urge to pair off the gods into equal sets, and our tendency to pragmatism and prizing of direct work even by the aristocracy with the potential of applied mathematics.

Ironanvil1 said:

The Exoria domestic slate is very appealing for the cultural paths it could lead us down, but I think the Antipatrid importation of the Pythagoreans could lead to fascinating results in terms of blending their unusual stance on gender with our urge to pair off the gods into equal sets, and our tendency to pragmatism and prizing of direct work even by the aristocracy with the potential of applied mathematics.

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Leukos the Accountant:

"Applied mathematics is wonderful and everybody should have some!"

Ironanvil1 said:

The Exoria domestic slate is very appealing for the cultural paths it could lead us down, but I think the Antipatrid importation of the Pythagoreans could lead to fascinating results in terms of blending their unusual stance on gender with our urge to pair off the gods into equal sets, and our tendency to pragmatism and prizing of direct work even by the aristocracy with the potential of applied mathematics.

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But think of the loss of beans and meat, catastrophic.