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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Murska said:
[] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

It's a pity that Drakonia is behind in the votes. Their domestic and foreign policies synergize very well, and they are focused on what really matters for us right now.

Most people seem worried that meddling with Kerkyra is risky. This is true, it is. But are risky plans something for us to avoid entirely, without considering the odds and the benefits?

If we succeed in Kerkyra, Athens is unlikely to complain. They are pressed too much to take on another enemy for no real gain, since what we do in Kerkyra is essentially what they want. Korinth will be angry, but Korinth cannot defeat Kerkyra even in a void, let alone with us in support and a war with Athens ongoing.

If we fail in Kerkyra, then we will take some loss, mostly of face. Athens will still likely interfere, and if they do, that is all that will come of it. If they don't, then Korinth still can't afford to fight us right now, but we will have trouble later. However, if Korinth gets Kerkyra then we will have trouble regardless of whether we try to prevent it or not.

So there are all the risks. They are not so bad as all that. The chances that we take actually significant loss here are small, comparable to the chance we take losses by not acting. But why then would we act, for it carries opportunity costs and costs of the usual kind as well?

The benefits. If we succeed, we will have a neutral and positively inclined Kerkyra. This secures our Western position greatly, for it hinders any attempt by any major power to interfere with us in the Adriatic. It gives us the opportunity to pivot to this sea and make it truly ours. While Korinth is weak and Kerkyra is friendly, we can set up and dig in so that they cannot dig us out again once they are strong once more. For we will also be strong.

This is an opportunity to grasp the Adriatic and its wealth and never let go. Sicily is a sideshow to us in comparison, as long as we can prevent hegemony by any single power there. Which is not even a threat yet, and Carthage will be on our side in that.

Don't purely focus on the doomsayers on Kerkyra. Grasp opportunity, and become rich and powerful.

(meta: besides, I think it'd also be an interesting path.)
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...Kerkyra would be a prize in the hands of either side of the Peloponnesian War. For Athens it's useful as a counterweight to Corinth (their enemy). For Sparta it's useful because they need all the ships they can get to blunt the Athenian naval advantage.

Basically, if we have influence over Kerkyra, we become a target, because we have something prized by either side of the war, and we lack the strength to reliably prevent either side from taking it away from us if they choose to do so.

Murska said:
Antipatrid foreign policy is important but is it critical now? Consider: We are safe from Taras for 20 years.
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The pivotal question is, will Taras react by thinking "you know, there really isn't much point in fighting Eretria, that's water under the bridge and we have better things to do?"

Or by spending the next 20 years building up weapons and training troops to attack us in Sallentine War 2: Muscle-Powered Boogaloo?

The answer to that question will hinge in large part on how we handle the immediate aftermath of the war with them. Four years from now, a lot of their reactions to the war will already be set in stone. Possibly literally if temple carvings or the like are involved.

The situation in Sicily is beginning to fray, but has not exploded yet and we are a secondary actor there compared to the Sikeliotes.
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It's going to be a lot easier to deal with the Sicilian situation before it explodes than to pick up the pieces after it explodes.

Kerkyra is an opportunity right now that we will not be able to do later. Everything else in the Drakonid slate is also very useful, and colonies in particular need to be started on faster to make them grow strong faster. But if we start colonising later, and don't act on Kerkyra now, we will face tough competition for the Adriatic. Now is our opportunity to truly rule it.
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...You do realize that Kerkyra and Korinth have existed for centuries, right? These cities aren't new, and if anything the degree to which they're preoccupied with events in mainland Greece because of the war will make them LESS likely to expand much into the Adriatic.

Note that historically, the Kerkyrans and Corinthians did NOT wind up building up stable dominance of the Adriatic during this time frame...
 
A question @Cetashwayo.

If Obander rolls a 100 with Taras...can we expect Taras to join the Epulian League, and give uh...Herakleia Lukania to Thurii in exchange for us ceding Lykai to Taras in case we jointly conquer Lykai?

Also, would Thurii ever contemplate joining the Epulian League?

What is the Eritrean reaction if major cities in Italia suddenly decide to join the Epulian League for reasons of their own? Would citizens be unhappy at the loss of Eritrean prominence in it?
 
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Kleon Prokopios choosed a simple khiton for speak before the Ekklesia. He spent a couple years north and don't want to stand out too much.

"Citizens of Eretria! I think I can speak for all of us when I thank our current Proubulos and Xenoparakletor for their dutiful work! But now we choose the new course for this glourious city!

The war rages on in fair Hellas and it is coming closer to us every day. The Dorians are ruthless as ever. Kerkyra turned into a boiling cauldron, right next to our home and our trade routes. These are turbulent times everywhere.

But there are other concerns too, and closer. Our glourious arms cowed Taras and peaceful voices are stronger there. We need to help them, help us to secure our immediate surroundings. Sicily turning into a dangerous place again and our very brethen is under attack in Campania! Also, we need to look further. If the hellenes there lose, we will be more alone in a sea of barbaroi. But there are differences between barbarrians and the Etruscans, while strange but at least share common traits with us. The sheperds inland are far more stranger to us, so let us all tell our prayers for the civilized folks of Campania. And our most important trade routes are threatened by pirates, the seas needs our fleets! We can't let them attack ships even if right now our merchant somewhat safe. They will be braver every passing day and fewer ships mean less trade for us.

Our colony in Ankon is growing by the day. We need to support them and soon we can call for them in need. Some will say I just after my profit, but the colonisation is our common cause!

The augurs talked about prosperity. We ned to secure that first. For that we need to fill our coffers, use our force with care but decisively and build our city better. For all of this, I think Demos Drakonia is the most suitable. Guarantees for our merchants will fill our coffers. Colonies will help our effort with war and trade too. The amber trade is lucrative and I am sure it will help us greatly. The pirates must be hunted down. But I am conflicted with the expedition to Kerkyra. We need to reserve our force and stay out of the war at Home. For that I support the Demos Antipatria. And I wish the best for Demos Exoria too. Let the best win for our common glory! "

With that Kleon casted his stones.

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

OOC: I hope it isn't too bad, my first try at it
 
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

Eretria, I believe that with the peace recently established with Taras, it is of vital importance that we take advantage of the opportunity presented to us. For they have removed the loathsome Myron Aristeides, who hates Eretria and all that is good, and have ascended the noble Pankratios Telesphoros. Let us show even our former foes the true extent to Eretrian magnanimity, and cause all to say, 'How noble is the polis of Eretria! For she is honorable even to her enemies!'. We have just recently heard of the brutality of the Spartans in Hellas, slaughtering Plataiai to the last man. I stand before the ekklesia to express my deepest condemnation of the bloodshed they misname justice, and rebuke it wholeheartedly. Enough men are slaughtered on the battlefield, and it is barbarity to extend this slaughter beyond the field of Ares. Thus, in defiance in such barbarity, it is my wish that we reconcile with our defeated foe, and extinguish any embers of resentment that may be fueled by Myron and his ilk. I cast my vote for the virtuous Obander for Xenoparakletor.

For the role of Proboulos, the choice is more difficult, as many of the ekklesia have lamented. Those that knew my father would know of his firm opposition to the dominance of the Demos Drakonia in favor of Exoria, but I am here today to state that his opposition was always against the dominance, rather than the Demos. This is why, though military reform of the hoplites in tempting, I cannot bring myself to allow both the roles of the Proboulos and Xenoparakletor to fall to the same Demos. It took the will of the gods to dislodge Drakonian dominance, I'd rather not rely on the gods again for another such intervention. Lest our priests get too ambitious in their interpretations. Besides, I am not particularly warm to the Pythagorians. It is good that the rubbish akousmatikoi have been superseded by the far superior mathematikoi, but if we do allow them to establish a philosophical center, I will be among the first to express my misgivings to them. Hah, with close friends watching my back, of course. We all know how sensitive those Pythagorians can be.

But I digress. For far too long fair Eretria has been called uncultured. She has also been mocked for being too close to her barbaroi allies. Well, Eretria has always been about finding glory in raising those around her, rather than trying to save face by lowering her neighbours. We have won a great victory with our allies, and in doing so, brought the Messapii in our embrace. Let us show our new allies how fortunate they are to be friends of Eretria! Let us raise a temple to Artemis. Let us make use of their vast herds. And let us celebrate at the right time, at the right place, and in the right way. Therefore, I elect Theron for Proboulos.

Thus speaks Heliodoros.

OOC: @Cetashwayo, what is the current state of the Eretrian calendar? How much of a mess is it?
 
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butchock said:
Why do we want the Demos Antipatria to control the Proboulos? Hoplite reform is nice but is it that really important right now? The Pythagoreans sound uniquely fun but then again why are they that important? Then finally the Hill of the Divine Marriage is getting improved even further but what is unique with this? It doesnt add anything just making the temple we already have even bigger.

Edit: also if i get the hint on the previous update right the current Antipatrian mantis is corrupt and should be voted out.
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Because people saw how poorly we did on land vs Taras in hoplite strength but have not considered how we will pay for the costs of the reform given that at start an initial reform increased military upkeep by 20% and Antipatrian is a slate full of expenses with no income increases outside of the metic growth.

Also the longer we ignore the Amber trade the more likely that some other city will pounce on that, Kreyka comes to mind as one option but there are other smaller cities in the area and if we deal with the pirates then we remove any reason to prevent those smaller cities from going for it. And if we do not remove the pirates we run the risk of our commerce taking a hit just when we do an election that has a platform full of expenses.

And I can see an Athens backed Kreyka deciding to use their navy to clear out the pirates and go for trade spots as a way for the restored government to show its worth to the people. Much safer way then combat with Corinth or Sparta to show strength plus bringing money to the city would be a good way to increase support.
 
kilopi505 said:
If Obander rolls a 100 with Taras...can we expect Taras to join the Epulian League, and give uh...Herakleia Lukania to Thurii in exchange for us ceding Lykai to Taras in case we jointly conquer Lykai?

Also, would Thurii ever contemplate joining the Epulian League?
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I think we would have to vastly increase the power and independence Eretria grants to the League cities if we wanted ANY chance of getting a relatively large polis like Taras to join us.

The reason the current League cities have joined us is that they're individually basically just small towns or villages, and are relying on us for collective defense. Remember that put together they could only contribute several hundred hoplites; we have thousands. They need us in a way Taras simply doesn't.
 
I hope that proboulos: demos exoria win, i want to have a cow, man!
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 10:30 AM, finished with 332 posts and 85 votes.
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The Prometheus temple really has me wondering about the thematics of a Promethean-centered Greek city-state. Especially given the other 'fire' gods I can think of are Ahura Mazda and Moloch.
 
We must turn our eyes back to the Adriatic lest we lose two generations of advantage painstakingly gained there. The italiotes can wait for we have humbled Taras and the barbarians of the interior will threaten those over proud cities who sought to yoke us. Only after they come begging for our help should we return as a hero to show them our magnanimity. The situation in Sicily is also secondary, with the rest of the island arrayed against Sirakusa, it cannot take advantage and we are still allied with the Sikelior League so we will be asked to intervene if we are needed. However, just as the Sikeliot League hold down Sicily during our recent war with Taras and couldn't lend hoplites so too must we focus on holding the Adriatic open. But we are a kind and noble ally this if we should truly be needed, we will respond with all due haste as was promised.

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)

[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
 
The military reforms are nice, but if we remember our impromptu battle outside the walls of Taras, we were more or less holding even with their phalanx:
Cetashwayo said:
On the plain of Taras the Eretrians and Tarentines clashed. The Eretrian right-wing hit first, but was pushed back by the superior Tarentine hoplites (2d10-3=8). In the midst of the push and pull of the Eretrian lines, young Isokrates Hypatos, who had been so excited to fight for Eretria and prove his worth, was killed by a spear thrust that embedded itself in his neck and fell to the ground in spasms. On the left-wing, however, there was a shocking breakthrough led by Pylonos, who had led the Epulian hoplites from the left side with such vigor that the weak Tarentine left broken entirely (2d10+4=23). Nevertheless, the collapsing Eretrian right might have ended the battle had there not been a raid on the harbor; when the Tarentines saw smoke coming from the city they panicked and assumed the Eretrians were sacking it. Despite Myron's calls to stay on the field they fled inside (2d10+4=21), yielding the plain and losing many men who turned their back at the wrong moment, but at heavy cost to Eretria.
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We were not decisively beating them, but we also weren't losing humiliatingly, either. We eventually won on one flank, just as we were buckling on another, making it a sort of draw, with the deciding factor being our bold naval action. It's possible that if they had not been distracted, we would have lost on the right, but their flank had broken entirely, so it probably would have been a stalemate.

So our phalanx really isn't bad. It's actually probably better than that of many cities. It's just not among the very best. It's a solid B+, essentially, holding the line whilst all our other decisive advantages win the battle. As we did at Taras, despite us not having been expecting a field battle. Another thing to note? The Ekdromoi were not present on the field, although they still arguably kind of won the battle for us. Had they been, we probably would have won outright.

This is why I personally feel that whilst military would be nice, it's not essential right now. We already have a very good military, and we do not want a major peer-on-peer land war for another decade at least. An idea like this will definitely stay in circulation so we can pick it again, especially with the strong showing of the Antipatrid slate at the polls here.

The Overland trade routes and festivals, and the cult of Artemis, on the other hand, will start strengthening our economic and syncretic religious ties of culture with our barbaroi from the day they start, and helping to create a truly unique and interesting Eretrian culture. In my eyes, they are much more crucial to securing the victory we fought for against Taras, particularly the Mesapii.

As Cavalier very insightfully said, a lot of the challenge in this game is about picking the right policies at the right time. The Antipatrid slate has some fine options, to me, but it does not make such complete sense right now as the Exorian slate, for cementing our position, ties and economic future post-war.
 
Citizens, I Phylacus the Ice Salesman would speak!

There has been much discussion in this august assembly of the hazards of an Attic victory over the Peloponnesian League. My fellow citizens speak, rightly, of the domination that Athenai would seek to impose over all Greeks in their hubris. But I ask you all, what makes you think that a Lakedemonian victor would demonstrate restraint with the only counterweight to its power vanquished. No, at the best they would impose the same tyranny over Hellas that the Athenai in their hubris seek to. At worst they would recreate the slaughter at Plataiai writ large.

Think, fellow citizens of who the natural allies of a victorious Sparta would be. Whilst we in Furthest Eretria have moved beyond obsessing over the crude divisions of Ionian and Dorian the people of Hellas are not so enlightened. The two most prominent Dorian states west of Hellas are Taras, Sparta's own colony whom we have just humbled in a war, and Syrakousai, our avowed enemy. No, a Lakedemonian victory would not be in our favour.

Athenai may be hubristic and domineering but they are our historic friend and we supply a notable portion of their wheat. We should not risk their outrage for so small a gift as a neutral Kerkyra. Instead we should cheer on their attempts to take back Kerkyra from Korinthos. A Kerkyra aligned with Athenai is better for us than either a Peloponnesian Kerkyra which strengthens Sparta and Korinthos, who are no friends of ours, or a neutral Kerkyra which risks the outrage of the unpredictable Attic demos.

A strong Athenai is an Athenai better able to occupy Sparta and Korinthos so if they want Kerkyra, I say let them take it!

I thank you for listening to this humble Ice Salesman.

OOC: is anyone able to translate a short phrase into Ancient Greek for me? I've tried looking online and not gotten anywhere.
 
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Personally I favoured agrandising the Hill of the Divine Mariage simply because, unlike the others, it is a truly Eretrian. Whatever following the cult of the divine mariage might get is a key part of Eretria soft power in the region and if we want it to truly be widespread we need to give it a religious center truly looking the part.

While magnificient temples to Artemis or Prometheus would, of course, also enhance the cultural cache of the city they won't play with Eretria pre-existent culture nearly as well.
 
Another thing to note is that the Exorian slate right now is the only one to unfuck our sacred calendar of festivals:
Cetashwayo said:
    • Religious Policy: Eretria's festival calendar has been confused due to the differing origins of many of its festivals, causing a situation in which festivals meant to start in mid-summer are now starting far later than they should. The confusion that this has garnered is growing to disrupt the city's festivals, and place further confusion on which festivals are endorsed by the people. The time has come for a comprehensive reform of the city's calendar in order to end all of the confusion, merge the competing calendrical systems together, and pull in folk festivals such as the Running of the Weasels that have been celebrated for decades but have received no official support [-10 talents, -2 talent upkeep per turn to reform festivals, better festival schedules will improve happiness in the city, +2% tariff efficiency].
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Right now, we're essentially celebrating holy festivals that should be in June or July in early September. The entire thing is a car crash, colliding with another car crash.

A major issue right now is that we need to show greater devotion to the Gods. We have received many grave augurs about this. It should be our upmost priority.

Probably the Olympians would appreciate it if we were celebrating their holy days on their actual holy days, rather than weeks later.
 
@FriedIce, I know a place that offers help in learning Attic and Koine Greek. Although to start posting you have to e-mail the site owner first.

textkit.com

I've been trying to learn Attic all this time for this story I'm writing...emphasis on trying.

Edit:

Try daedalus.umkc.edu/FirstGreekBook for a free online course in learning Attic Greek.
 
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[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 11:49 AM, finished with 340 posts and 87 votes.
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I'm going to say that both IC and OOC I feel like a big standing temple to Artemis and Orion would be rather missing the point. An appropriate site for their worship would be an area carefully left as natural as possible to stay in keeping with their themes of hunting, nature, and purity. To kill two birds with one stone, we should set up this preserved area around wherever we intend to source our water for the city from so that we don't end up polluting it with excessive human activity.

Also, by keeping this sacred grove outside the walls, we make it more accessible to the barbaroi who would want to worship there.

EDIT: As far as unfucking our sacred calendar, having the Pythagoreans here first should help with that given that it would require some work with maths.

I do wonder how the Pythagoreans and their relative acceptance of female scholars will interface with whatever minor tradition was established by the whole "Ianedar" thing and the presumed deliberate choice to go along with an obvious charade because "he" was really good at his job.
 
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kilopi505 said:
A question @Cetashwayo.

If Obander rolls a 100 with Taras...can we expect Taras to join the Epulian League, and give uh...Herakleia Lukania to Thurii in exchange for us ceding Lykai to Taras in case we jointly conquer Lykai?

Also, would Thurii ever contemplate joining the Epulian League?

What is the Eritrean reaction if major cities in Italia suddenly decide to join the Epulian League for reasons of their own? Would citizens be unhappy at the loss of Eritrean prominence in it?
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Rolling a nat 20 isn't going to win you everything forever. It will make your stated goals successful or easier to achieve.

The Epulian League is an organization bound mostly to Epulia and the Adriatic. It is also explicitly hierarchical, given Eretria has the majority of the power. As @Simon_Jester said it's effectively a protection agency. It would be deeply unwise for Taras to join the current iteration, and for Eretria to allow it, as it would effectively be a political trojan horse.

Chopak said:
@Cetashwayo i don't understand why Immigration Policy is part of Demes Platforms. Didn't the Ekklesia already decided what it should be last year? And knowing what is the Assembly stance on the Immigration why do Demes put different Policy in their platforms? Isn't it a bit like saying "we know what you want and we will not give you that"?
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There is no set immigration policy. The city sends out agents to Hellene cities to recruit them to Eretria, similar to how Carthage had recruiters around the Mediterranean for mercenaries. Given the Proboulos controls the agents, it's up to the demes to decide what policy that want for that cycle.

Ironanvil1 said:
@Cetashwayo am I right in thinking that the Exodia Military Mission would address some of the same issues in integrating the Messapii as the Tributary mission, just over a longer timespan?
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Which military mission?

Japanime said:
Firstly, I am not sure if this has been discussed, but it looks like for Deme Antipatria's foreign policy objectives, it looks like we're probably going to be involved in a small minor war in the future as this mission to Taras is partially contingent on a joint conquest of Lykai. Is that correct @Cetashwayo ?
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It won't be much of a war. Lykai is a small town dependent on Kerkyra for support created by a hostile action against Taras.
 
A Temple to Artemis is probably a necessary condition, or at least extremely helpful, if we want to establish a sacred grove and have it become a major part of Eretria's religious rites, however.

It's understandable that as modern people, we consider "nature" themed Gods and Goddesses to be best worshipped in the beauty of nature. Certainly, sacred groves are a great way to honour a goddess like Artemis. However, established worship in temples is also integral to how the Greeks saw proper worship of their Gods and Goddesses, for a number of reasons, not least the fact that building temples is more difficult than putting garlands on trees, so it shows real devotion.

To a large extent, all the Gods and Godesses are "nature" deities - Zeus is lord of the sky and the thunders, Hephaestus of volcanoes and so on. The ancients would not see as hard a distinction here as we do, because they were not all urbanites or as separated from the natural world as we are today.

So if we do want to help promote a cult of Artemis and a divine union of Orion and Artemis, and establish a sacred grove to Artemis outside our walls, I think the Temple will be extremely helpful, perhaps crucial doing so.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Which military mission?
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. Tributary Mission: The allies of Eretria fought well during the war with Taras, but they were slow to mobilize and sometimes disorganized. It is time to create a common command structure and organization of their levies so that we can call on set amounts of their men in war, rather than counting out the number of allies that we need with each war and giving them much grief in assembling the men to do so. In doing so we will tie them closer to us and make them more effective in battle [Opens up options to reform the militaries of the allies and make them more effective].]
 
"Would that we could send Obander among the Italiotes and Mnemnon among the Messapii, while our navy crushes the pirates within the Adriatic. Perhaps we might beg of our oligarchs to tend to more things in this time of nearing disaster! For surely that is what they are becoming, if it matters not what the will of the Ekklesia is, only what each Deme permits us to choose! I say that this is absurd, that the Demes have put the cart before the donkey, and expect the donkey to push. If we continue to bind ourselves and our city to one of three courses, with nothing between, we will embrace folly at every turn, and if we're to embrace folly, then I say why should we wait? For Proboulos, let us truly embrace the depths of folly, and select myself, Theophilos, son of Theophilos! For who else would serve as a better fool? And for our Xenoparakletor, who better to represent Eretria than the noble weasel, that truest image of our city."

[X] Proboulos: Theophilos Theophilou ("Demos" Galê)
[X] Xenoparakletor: A Weasel ("Demos" Galê)

Because it doesn't feel right having this sort of increasingly disgruntled environment without someone making an absurdist-protest platform.
 
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Godwinson said:
"Would that we could send Obander among the Italiotes and Mnemnon among the Messapii, while our navy crushes the pirates within the Adriatic. Perhaps we might beg of our oligarchs to tend to more things in this time of nearing disaster! For surely that is what they are becoming, if it matters not what the will of the Ekklesia is, only what each Deme permits us to choose! I say that this is absurd, that the Demes have put the cart before the donkey, and expect the donkey to push. If we continue to bind ourselves and our city to one of three courses, with nothing between, we will embrace folly at every turn, and if we're to embrace folly, then I say why should we wait? For Proboulos, let us truly embrace the depths of folly, and select myself, Theophilos, son of Theophilos! For who else would serve as a better fool? And for our Xenoparakletor, who better to represent Eretria than the noble weasel, that truest image of our city."

[X] Proboulos: Theophilos Theophilou ("Demos" Nyfitsa)
[X] Xenoparakletor: A Weasel ("Demos" Nyfitsa)

Because it doesn't feel right having this sort of increasingly disgruntled environment without someone making an absurdist-protest platform.
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This is presumably what led to the "choose an extra foreign mission" thing.
 
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