Remove ads

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Reader mode
Ironanvil1 said:
You're being incoherent. If Korinth can't stop Athens head on, what makes you think we can?

The solution is instead to leverage our pre-existing advantage in Italia and Sicily to set our stamp on how events there will proceed, unopposed by Athens, such that any future Athenian attempts to shift matters find as little purchase as possible on the structure we have set in place.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I never said that we would face them off directly, I was advocating keeping their attention away from us, if they have to get up and solve this Adriatic issue West, if their eyes get turned West, then it's likely they may keep an eye West as they do so.

And your idea, to directly oppose Athens in a game of diplomacy and bribery, is the truly incoherent idea, right now we are seen by the Italiotes as an outright different region. And you think you can change this with Obander, an old man described in universe as often being boring with little experience as a diplomat.

Good luck. You'll need it more than the strategy to try and keep Athenian eyes away almost entirely.
 
Last edited:
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

At times I wish I could vote for all the candidates, for they are all noble men who bring ideas full of wisdom before the ekklesia.
Nonetheless I must decide for two of them. For Probulos i will vote for Kyros Gennadios of the Demos Antipatria. They will strengthen our beloved cult of the Divine Marriage and it will hopefully return to the heights it once posessed in Epulia and beyond.
Through the invitation of mathematicians and philosophers we will amplify our cultural voice to the audibility a greek city of our stature deserves. That said our phalanx, while in the end victorious, was nearly overwhelmed by our tarentine foes. That can not stand. Regarding metic immigration I think the Demos Antipatria was successful in the past will be so again.

For Xenoparakletor I will vote Obander Eupraxis. The peace with Taras is young, we can not allow our greek cousins to stew in resentment lest it turn into a desire for vengeance. Also we should not forget that our most stalwart foe in the past was Syrakousai, we all know men and women who fled before Syrakousais armies. That they are on the move again should concern us all.

So speaks Isigas son of Euplastos.
 
I believe if Athenai retook Kerkyra, they would not do so out of a desire to dominate the Adriatic, and meddle in our affairs, but may come to do so anyway as it would present them with the opportunity. With no opportunity, they would have no cause to gaze westward. If we take kerkyra, we may remove the potential for just such an opportunity to move west. I do not believe Athenai has designs upon the Italiotes, but I do believe that if their borders come closer to ours, they might do so regardless.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

Thus I have changed my vote.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 1, 2019 at 5:31 PM, finished with 101 posts and 41 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

Stomp the pirates and keep corinth and Athens focused on hellas and not us. If not for that I would have gone for ties with Taras and italia.
 
Void Stalker said:
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

Stomp the pirates and keep corinth and Athens focused on hellas and not us. If not for that I would have gone for ties with Taras and italia.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you want Athens to focus on Hellas and not us, then maybe don't try and get a polity that was friendly towards them to align with us instead.


Edit: To be clear, intervening in Kekyra forces Athenai and Korinthos to respond, Athenai because what the hell a friendly major grain supplier is fucking with what was and will be again one of your major naval assets in a huge throwdown war. Korinthos because we would be messing with the recent gains they have made. Doing so will piss off both sides of the war in mainland Greece, for little gain. We cannot afford this, especially so soon after another war.
 
Last edited:
Cetashwayo said:
The Athenians are far more likely to get involved in Italian and Sicilian politics than Sparta. There is a real fear that if Athenai is able to secure Kerkyra's democratic faction to regain power, combined with the potential of them campaigning in Western Hellas, they'd use that as a springboard to go west, and right now Demos Drakonia would prefer to ensure that even if Kerkyra stays on Athenai's side it does not fully join the Delian League and start contributing ships, tribute, and harbors for Athenai to use in case it wants to get involved with the Sikeliotes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Athenai might not be our ally, but their likely foes in western Hellas (Taras, Krotone, Lokri or Syracuse) are NOT our friends.
I must honestly question these ambitions of Demos Drakonia. Their focus should be on making sure that no unbeatable coalition forms against us in the west, while we are expanding in the Adriatic. Not to block Athens ambitions on the Italiote and Siceliote friends of Sparta.
As an ardent supporter of - what I thought to be the ideals of - Demos Drakonia, I fear that this issue in particular will cause it to once again fail in the Xenoparakletor election.
 
Last edited:
McLuvin said:
....Dude, Kerkya's new Oligarchy is being propped up by Korinthinos, they're literally Sparta's main Naval ally. Kerkya is not Athenian aligned
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Democrats however were close in with Athen's what with the aristoi's reasoning for revolt being they saw themselves as slaves of Athens. This is why they are being supported in exile by Athens.
 
McLuvin said:
I never said that we would face them off directly, I was advocating keeping their attention away from us, if they have to get up and solve this Adriatic issue West, if their eyes get turned West, then it's likely they may keep an eye West as they do so.

And your idea, to directly oppose Athens in a game of diplomacy and bribery, is the truly incoherent idea, right now we are seen by the Italiotes as an outright different region. And you think you can change this with Obander, an old man described in universe as often being boring with little experience as a diplomat.

Good luck. You'll need it more than the strategy to try and keep Athenian eyes away almost entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Glory 6, Lawfulness 7, Friendliness 2, Courage 3, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 6

Leader of the Demos Antipatria and member of a branch of the Antipatrid Family, called the "Black Bull," a man of great lawfulness and wisdom who is known for his oratory on the nature of justice and the necessity of fairness. A modest smallholder, he has provided more words than wealth for the city but earned glory as a naval captain and a hoplite at the Battle of Taras despite his advanced age. As he has become older his image as a pure and virtuous Hellene has grown, with his glory rising.

Obander is near perfect as the Xenoparakletor to send to strike an agreement between Hellenes who both respect oratory and wisdom, and a man who has won his battle scars.

If we settle matters in Italia and Sicily now to our satisfaction it doesn't matter if Athens "looks West" because they'll find minimal opportunities to interfere in the status quo we have created.
 
So reading through the update:

Cetashwayo said:
Still, to be able to arrive home, and not hold to a siege for years, satisfied many, and the indemnity paid to Taras as well as the gaining of domination over the Messapii gave great cheer to the proceedings of the Running of the Weasels, a folk festival that had been performed for many years in which young men chased girls wearing masks of weasels through the gate of the weasels and onto the field.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cetashwayo said:
the Running of the Weasels, a folk festival
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...




we must make this an official festival
 
HastyGaming said:
"snip"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
All of this reasoning suffers from a fatal flaw: It assumes that if we meddle with Kerkyra, Athens and Korinth will just let us be.

They won't. We will be taking what they see as theirs. And we can't meaningfully oppose them if they decide to take it back. At the same time, we will be weakening ourselves in the one theater were we can meaningfully oppose them, and which is actually existentially vital to us: Magna Graecia itself.

It would be nice to make the Adriatic our sea, but it's also a dangerous overreach at this point. Safe it for when Eretria has grown stronger and Athens, Korinth and Sparta have bled each other dry.
 
Last edited:
Sarpedon said:
The Democrats however were close in with Athen's what with the aristoi's reasoning for revolt being they saw themselves as slaves of Athens. This is why they are being supported in exile by Athens.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Okay, dude, if the Athenians give the Democrats back their power, they shall become Athenian Vassals in all but name, if we try and help them, it is specifically mentioned they will become neutral in the text.
Ironanvil1 said:
Glory 6, Lawfulness 7, Friendliness 2, Courage 3, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 6

Leader of the Demos Antipatria and member of a branch of the Antipatrid Family, called the "Black Bull," a man of great lawfulness and wisdom who is known for his oratory on the nature of justice and the necessity of fairness. A modest smallholder, he has provided more words than wealth for the city but earned glory as a naval captain and a hoplite at the Battle of Taras despite his advanced age. As he has become older his image as a pure and virtuous Hellene has grown, with his glory rising.

Obander is near perfect as the Xenoparakletor to send to strike an agreement between Hellenes who both respect oratory and wisdom, and a man who has won his battle scars.

If we settle matters in Italia and Sicily now to our satisfaction it doesn't matter if Athens "looks West" because they'll find minimal opportunities to interfere in the status quo we have created.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And I totally disagree here is Obander's first description, one that is still relevant because much of it hasn't changed.
Cetashwayo said:
[] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Glory 5, Lawfulness 7, Friendliness 2, Courage 3, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 6

Leader of the Demos Antipatria and member of a branch of the Antipatrid Family, called the "Black Bull," a man of great lawfulness and wisdom who is known for his oratory on the nature of justice and the necessity of fairness. A modest smallholder, he has provided more words than wealth for the city but earned glory as a naval captain against Illyrian pirates. Known to give long and meandering speeches that sometimes provide great insight and other times bore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Obander is an old man, with no prior expert in talking to others outside of the city, known to be boring, and in the last thread he was also known for being impertinent and disrespectful to the point he was forced to publicly apologise.

Now, add him being boring, old, inexperienced and prior characterisation to this, and we in fact get the worst candidate possible.

A fact that is only made worse by your idea that we will rely on this man to ward off Athens and end Eretrian political isolation, create a status quo amongst the Italiotes who have feared our Hegemony and influence for decades, all before Athens turns West after having to step out into the Adriatic.

Overall, I have massive doubts for your, overall poor, policy idea.
 
Last edited:
If he's still boring then why didn't I keep that part of his description in the new character description...? People change over time.
 
Last edited:
Athens turning west doesn't matter much if the Epulian League and Italiote League and the Sikeliote League are united enough to tell them to piss off.

Also if Kerkyra turns neutral what stops Athens from being Athens and coming back with a huge fleet to sack the city and massacre its inhabitants for betraying their alliance? They've done it before and will do it again over the course of the war.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Urgent news from Kerkyra: the city has fallen into civil war. The Democrats, who had ruled the city for decades, have been overthrown by a league of oligarchs and fled to the city of Naupaktos, hosted by the Athenians. The oligarchs are aligned with Korinthos and may seek to take Kerkyra out of the war. Truly a dark day for the people of Kerkyra, who have to endure such strife.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cetashwayo said:
  • Diplomatic Mission: The polis of Kerkyra, once a proud democracy in the Ionian Sea, has been overtaken by oligarchs aligned with Korinthos. If Eretria is to maintain its advantage and control of the Adriatic sea this cannot stand. With the Athenians supporting the democratic faction and also encroaching on the Ionian Sea, Eretria must sway the democrats over to its side and restore them to power in order to ensure that the Ionian sea does not become either a Korinthian or Athenian lake [Diplomatic emissaries dispatched to sway Kerkyran Democrats. If successful, military mission will embark to Kerkyra to help them regain power as an Eretrian-aligned power neutral in the war between Athenai and Korinthos].
​
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In all honesty...



The Koyrthinians are not chumps, and the Athenians are both quite capable of holding them to a standstill, and also not really our friends. We would be committing ourselves to a foreign entanglement against a peer, where we may not have much support on the ground. (They control the city right now.) This is when we still have two different tribes of barbaroi at home to fully integrate, and are still dealing with the aftermath of a war against our neighbour, with a very limited window of time to secure good future relations with them, and set up more effective League diplomacy with other Italiote cities.

The most hilarious thing here, is if we want to be amoral bastards, and just become supreme in the Adriatic?

We want them to fight. We want them to bleed eachother white, so that then we can move in and take control of Adriatic trade more easily. We have no pressing need to involve ourselves right now. Whichever faction triumphs, will do so briefly, and will weaken Kerkya and itself in doing so.

So in summary, I'm not in favour of sticking our hand in that cheese-grater right now.
 
Cetashwayo said:
If he's still boring then why didn't I keep that part of his description in the new character description...? It's almost as if people change over time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Over four years, when he's pushing fifty at least, he suddenly changes to become not boring?

Did he take a course in speaking like several others did? Despite having been defeated repeatedly before, and never having taken such measures in the past?

Honestly makes no sense for it to happen out of the blue with no explanation, when his parties political control is increasing, instead of being pushed back.
 
McLuvin said:
Okay, dude, if the Athenians give the Democrats back their power, they shall become Athenian Vassals in all but name, if we try and help them, it is specifically mentioned they will become neutral in the text.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And you think the Athenians will just accept this?

No way. They'll take Kerkyra. And we aren't in a position to stop them. Korinth might be, but that's not any better for us.

As for Obander, he might not be the best candidate, but neither is he a fool. Crucially, his policies are sound. The same can not be said for the proposed endeavor in Kerkyra, which I fear will lead to disaster whether it ends in success or failure.
 
Last edited:
Cavalier said:
Athens turning west doesn't matter much if the Epulian League and Italiote League and the Sikeliote League are united enough to tell them to piss off.

Also if Kerkyra turns neutral what stops Athens from being Athens and coming back with a huge fleet to sack the city and massacre its inhabitants for betraying their alliance? They've done it before and will do it again over the course of the war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kerkyra is at the end of Athenian supply lines and without organizing a major expedition they could not just take and sack the city like that. In our historical timeline Athenai was forced out of the Ionian Sea by a coalition of all the local powers in 425 BCE who simply diplomatically pressured the city to withdraw from Akarnania including their own allies, and Athenai, not wanting to fight everyone in the region at once, did. It's because of the vulnerability of the Athenians at the end of a long supply line that Demos Drakonia believes they can do this and not get wiped out in four years, while their proxenoi in Athenai smooth over any disputes with the Athenians. Eretria remains an important source of grain imports for Athenai and Symmachos believes he can leverage that.

McLuvin said:
Over four years, when he's pushing fifty at least, he suddenly changes to become not boring?

Did he take a course in speaking like several others did? Despite having been defeated repeatedly before, and never having taken such measures in the past?

Honestly makes no sense for it to happen out of the blue with no explanation, when his parties political control is increasing, instead of being pushed back.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Uh, I mean, he's a person, and people told him he was boring, and so he decided to scale back all the speechmaking. People remarked on his ability in the past and he decisively lost the Xenoparakletor election last time, so he decided to work harder on being more concise.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
All of this reasoning suffers from a fatal flaw: It assumes that if we meddle with Kerkyra, Athens and Korinth will just let us be.

They won't. We will be taking what they want to be theirs. And we can't meaningfully oppose them if they decide to take it back. At the same time, we will be weakening ourselves in the one theater were we can meaningfully oppose them, and which is actually existentially vital to us: Magna Graecia itself.

It would be nice to make the Adriatic our sea, but it's also a dangerous overreach at this point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Athens will not. They are focused on the Aegean and we supply them their grain. While it will no doubt annoy them, they will see the use of a neutral power in the Adriatic that is willing to aid them via the power of commerce. Furthermore, it is more useful to Athens to have Eretria and Kerkyra control the Adratic then it is to spread their navy further or divert resources towards rooting out pirates.

Corinth has taken a beating from Athens, and is the weaker power in that struggle. It might detest Eretrian control of the Adriatic but it's strategos is not so foolish as to force Eretria and Kerkyra both to war when Eretria is neutral to the current war.

We have a closing window of opportunity to assert our interests in the Adriatic. Let's not forsake it!
 
Last edited:
Driven by Apathy said:
All of this reasoning suffers from a fatal flaw: It assumes that if we meddle with Kerkyra, Athens and Korinth will just let us be.

They won't. We will be taking what they want to be theirs. And we can't meaningfully oppose them if they decide to take it back. At the same time, we will be weakening ourselves in the one theater were we can meaningfully oppose them, and which is actually existentially vital to us: Magna Graecia itself.

It would be nice to make the Adriatic our sea, but it's also a dangerous overreach at this point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's not the case, at all. I don't assume they will just let us be and I find your assumptions about what would occur flawed.

Korinthos would, of course, seek to take action but as they've been unable to overcome Kerkyra alone up until now it would take some rather interesting logic to argue that they would be able to overcome us and Kerkyra while still contending with Athens in the gulf.

Athens meanwhile currently desires Kerkyra only to keep them aligned against Korinthos and involved in the war, as long as that remains the case they have no reason to get involved.

Because let's be clear here, we're not installing a puppet government or anything so drastic. We're overthrowing the oligarchs and reinstalling the Democrats who will in return be thankful and somewhat inclined to support us. That doesn't prevent them from remaining friendly with Athens.
 
On another side-note:
Cetashwayo said:
Nominated by Skantarios the Hoplite, the psillos Hermesdora Eretriazenis was appointed as the master of the festival for the year, and did so while proudly limping, for he had suffered a terrible and disastrous injury on the field of battle with Taras in the form of a sprained ankle which he wished to show to all. He made a speech which extolled the virtues of a dog-driven cart, recommended that in the future they smother Taras in dirt to defeat it, and told a fantastical story of Eretria fighting against a tyrant representing all of barbarian Italy that sought to subjugate the city.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Hermesdora Eretriazenis continues to be one of the best characters. :lol

Honestly, these little character asides based on discussion in the quest and player characters are really endearing. <3
 
McLuvin said:
Okay, dude, if the Athenians give the Democrats back their power, they shall become Athenian Vassals in all but name, if we try and help them, it is specifically mentioned they will become neutral in the text.
And I totally disagree here is Obander's first description, one that is still relevant because much of it hasn't changed.

Obander is an old man, with no prior expert in talking to others outside of the city, known to be boring, and in the last thread he was also known for being impertinent and disrespectful to the point he was forced to publicly apologise.

Now, add him being boring, old, inexperienced and prior characterisation to this, and we in fact get the worst candidate possible.

A fact that is only made worse by your idea that we will rely on this man to ward off Athens and end Eretrian political isolation, create a status quo amongst the Italiotes who have feared our Hegemony and influence for decades, all before Athens turns West after having to step out into the Adriatic.

Overall, I have massive doubts for your, overall poor, policy idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And then what will Athens do in response? You seem to be coming to this decision assuming that only Kekyra and Eretria matter, but the fact is they do not exist in a vacuum, other polities have interests that they will seek to ensure, especially in the face of such a dire conflict as the Peloponnesian War.

Also as others have pointed out Obander isn't Mr. Magoo, he's an elder statesman who won his scars and is known to be wise and respected by Greeks. Who is then being sent to treat with...Greeks! He is literally the best candidate for that job.
 
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 7:10 PM, finished with 394 posts and 89 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top