Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

While I like certain aspects of Drakonia foreign policy, I have extremely serious concerns about their intention to meddle with Kerkyra. Meddle with Kerkyra, and I'm pretty sure we'll soon have the Athenians, Korinthians and Spartans meddling with us. That's not something we want.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

This is perhaps the most annoying vote I've ever had to do for one of our elections.

The Exorian Xenoparakletor is damn good option, centralising the league, reforming its military and allowing us to finally kick over the Dauni when they're extremely vulnerable due to internal dissent is a beautiful option I really wish I could take.

But Kerkya is a major issue, in fact it's an outright existential threat, paired with the increasing Illyrian boldness and chance to gain an Amber monopoly and Two Colonies, as well as a Xenoparakletor specialising in Hellene diplomacy before the Syracuse situation really blows up, I just can't not vote for it.

I hope we can vote for Exorian next time, and that they've kept the current platform, which is a damn good one.

It is good to see that amongst the youths there is now a good understanding of the weaknesses of our phalanx and the attendent desire to rectify them.

But make no mistake, many of you err by underestimating the danger that yet brews in the Adriatic. Remember that half the Italiotes are allied to Syracuse and will march to war against us regardless! If you would built a league of Italiotes, build it after the war in Sicily has been decided, not before. And Taras has set forth a party of peace, there we have time.

But we have elected to make the wealth of this city in trade, and that is now under threat. We ought contest such a threat with fullest force.

McLuvin said:

But Kerkya is a major issue, in fact it's an outright existential threat, paired with the increasing Illyrian boldness and chance to gain an Amber monopoly and Two Colonies, as well as a Xenoparakletor specialising in Hellene diplomacy before the Syracuse situation really blows up, I just can't not vote for it.

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Aren't you confusing Drakonia and Antipatria here? It's the Antipatrids that want to take diplomatic action to hopefully contain the Syracuse situation.

Drakonia want to effect regime change in Kerkyra, which I fear might prove a dangerous bit of overreach. I could very well see it backfiring worse than doing nothing.

And even if we're successful... what then? Neither Athens, nor Korinth, nor, in the long run, Sparta, will just live a Eretria aligned Kerkyra be. I've seen the development in Kerkyra called an existential threat, but to tell you all the truth, I think the real threat here is that we might be drawn into a costly foreign adventure while simultaneously drawing the gaze of powers bigger than us.

The risks of intervention are even greater than the risks of doing nothing, IMHO.

Alkaios son of Kleitos, Hoplite and once silent citizen approaches to speak.

It gives me great pleasure to see the blessings of true demokratia appear in our fair city, for we are spoiled by choice in being able to choose between such well-thought positions. However as the Moirai decide the fate of men and god alike, so too do we have to be decisive in our choices.

Through the divination of the augurs, the gods have spoken! And it is the proposals of Deme Antipatria which best follow their will and guidance. For it was the gods who tasked us with improving our capabilities at making war and peace, and I can see none other than the Deme Antipatria who best represent their vision.

For Proboulos, can anyone gainsay Kyros Gennadios for his fair leadership of the city during these trying times? Has he not brought prosperity to the city? Will not another influx of loyal metics, fleeing the chaos of Hellas, bring wealth and manpower to Eretria in fair measure? Furthermore, after the near disastrous performance of the the hoplites before the walls of Taras, can anyone truly argue that change need not be had?

I digress, however, for I would be remiss if I did not speak of the key point in the domestic proposal of the Deme Antipatria which causes me to speak so fervently as I do. With the building of the Hill of the Divine Marriage, Eretria Eshkata once again finds itself at a crossroads as the city debates how best to honor the gods which have favored it so. While it may appear that the time of our fair city's founding can only be hearkened back to in memory, in fact it is not so long ago as we still have such relics and icons such as the Temple of the Divine Marriage to call upon. It was said Temple, one that celebrated the union of Apollon and Athene, which ushered in Eretia Eshkata's reemergence upon the stage of the Greek World. There are many a polis who can be said to honor traditional gods like Artemis and Prometheus, but none but the citizens of Eretria worship the Divine Union of Apollon and Athene, the Divine Marriage of Poseidon and Demeter. It was through the inspiration of the divine marriage that the city's founders were able to prosper and make it what it is today, and what makes us unique among our fellow Hellenes. Just as the original Temple of the Divine Marriage showed the world that Eretria Eshkata had returned to the stage, so too do I believe that this addition will allow the citizens of Eretria to hold their heads high as we proudly profess our faith.

Yet for all that I would love to continue speaking about only our fair city and its demesne, the world as we know it is not a safe place, nor a fair one, and we would be foolish to ignore the happenings around us. One need only look at Hellas, to see what dangers lurk before us.

I would be lying if I said that I did not have second thoughts and trepidation in my heart when I heard of the news from Kerkyra. To hear of another democracy toppled by the tyrannical forces of oligarchy brings me much fury. However, as the Ekklesia has shown me, logos must win out over ethos, and while I can certainly understand the other positions of my fellow Hellenes, who believe that our only choice in this matter is to intervene ourselves in order to keep secure the Adriatic, I must ask for patience as I explain my reasoning as the context does not bear out such actions.

It is true that the rule of the oligarchs within Kerkyra, ones sympathetic to Korinthos no less, threatens our position upon the Adriatic. However, we must remember that for as powerful as the Kerkyrans are reported to be at sea, the true masters of the sea remain the Athenians. For was it not to them that the Democrats fled, rather than us? Surely, if we can see the danger posed by the oligarchs pulling Kerkyra out of the war, then I have doubt that the Athenians do as well. And while the Athenians themselves still find themselves embroiled with war, can this not be said to be the best time for them to deal with Kerkyra? For it seems one of the Kings of Lakedaimon has perished, leaving only the other to carry on their war against Athenai.

While I do not doubt the Arête of the men of Eretria, I fear that maintaining such a careful balance in this situation is not entirely within our strong suit. One wrong misstep and we can find ourselves engulfed not only in war against the oligarchs of Kerkyra and their backers in Korinthos, but potentially the greater war in Hellas between Athenai and Sparta, as this is but one theatre where they contest each other for hegemony. I myself do not like the idea of leaving Kerkyra to be dealt alone with by the Athenians, potentially turning the Ionian into a lake of their own. However, as much as I fear that reality, I also believe that Athenai will find itself stretched too thin to exploit that reality, especially when its enemies continue to press at it on land and sea.

Now, when it comes to the formal matter of the foreign proposal set forth by the Deme Antipatria for the election of Xenoparakletor, I believe that they have the right of it. I know not how many of you have heard word of our fair city among the citizens of the other polei, but I can tell you that many of them see us as preferring to deal with the barbaroi more than our own fellow Hellenes. As much as it stings me to admit such, can anyone truly say otherwise? For was it not our courting of the barbaroi at the expense of our fellow Hellenes, which caused the other Italiotes to intervene and prevent us from getting more than we deserved? If one need an example of the power of the Hellenes around us, then one need not look very far.

It is my view that if we follow the proposals set forth by the Deme Antipatria, carried out by the well-regarded and wise Obander, that we will be able to rehabilitate our image among our fellow Hellenes. As much as the oligarchs of Kerkyra can threaten the finances of our fair city with their formidable fleet, if we allow Syrakousai to gain momentum and achieve hegemony over the Sikelliotes, they can threaten the very existence of Eretria Eshkata itself. One need only remember the tyrant that was Hiero to glimpse at the power they once held, and could potentially hold again if we do not assist our allies once more. Furthermore, in light of the Peace of Phaidros, it has become more clear than ever that we need to be kept abreast of the developments within the other Italiote polei around us, for I do not think any of us wish to be blindsided by them once again. Finally, while I am a mere humble hoplite, and not a strategos of any measure, I feel that it is necessary to remind everyone that as in a phalanx, true security comes from making sure that your rear and flanks are protected. While the Sikeliote League can oppose Syrakousai, and the Thurii can assist us potentially against Metapontion, Taras still seethes at the humiliation we have brought them. With the virtuous Obander at the helm, I feel that we can soothe the ill-feelings the Tarentines have for us, or at the very least make them less sore about us than before. That way, when we march in the future, whether it be against the perfidious Dauni or the scum of the Adriatic Pirates we can do so with our sights set forward, without having to worry about an enemy at our back.

So speaks Alkaios son of Kleitos.

Since it was fairly easy missed as part of my general post:

ATHENS WILL ATTACK KERKRYA IF WE DON'T.

They have the democratic leadership, the city is isolated by water, and it's a naval station for them.

The benefit with attacking ourselves is that we get them on our side, but the peloponesian league was willing to commit 53 ships to the defense of the oligarchs when athens attacked them.

Everyone has very interesting policy platforms. We're lucky (I guess?) to be in the position where we don't have to decide between what's good and bad but instead just what's most necessary right now.

For Demos Drakonia their domestic policies are very appealing, strengthening ourselves in the Adriatic in case things go badly with Kerkyra has obvious worth. And their Colonial Policy to encourage the rapid growth of new colonies we found is a particularly good idea and would sync incredibly well with their foreign policy given it will (if all goes well) lead to the founding of two new colonies. Their immigration focus on bringing in lower numbers of high skilled Metics while allowing poorer and unskilled freemen and citizens to go to new colonies could be great for Eretria as a city.

Their foreign policies are critically important I think. The matter of Kerkyra is simultaneously important, time-limited and a direct and immediate threat to Eretria. Up until now Kerkyra has acted as a buffer and a guard against Korinthos (and Athens to a lesser extent) and has prevented them from sweeping the Adriatic Sea. If Kerkyra were to fall under the sway of either of them that would be disastrous for us.

Their other policies are pretty great too. Sweeping the pirates clear (again) and creating a new colony to prevent them from gaining a foothold in the future, or at least making it a lot harder. Making contact with the Enetoi and gaining a new luxury trade route and another colony (in the future) to really solidify our position in the northern Adriatic would be huge. The big benefit to these two policies is that even if we fail to keep Kerkyra away from Korinthos and Athens they somewhat fortify our position in the Adriatic and make it harder for us to be pushed out.

For Demos Antipatria their domestic policies are pretty damn good. I think Sandman put it pretty well when he said...

The Sandman said:

The Antipatrid theme this election is something I feel is of immense value: the construction of a distinct Eretrian identity and laying the foundation to promote our specific take on Hellenic culture in the future.

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Bringing in the Pythagoreans to establish a philosophical center in Eretria and improve our cultural standing, Military reforms, more loyal metics and the big one... The Temple of the Divine Marriage as the Great Work Addition. If the great work was separated from the election I think this would be the runaway winner.

I'm less sold on their foreign policy focus, not necessarily because it's bad but just because the matter of Kerkyra is a much more immediate threat to us. Although I have to be honest I'm not convinced reconciliation with Taras is desirable. Even if we accomplish it, it doesn't feel like something that will last - and giving up Lykai to do it - and thereby strengthening Taras in the south of the peninsula feels unwise.

Demos Exoria... How I wish I could vote for you. The Office of Barbarian Commerce is a great idea and something we desperately need. It would really help integrate the Peuketii and Messapii into Eretria by dragging their economies more closely to ours. A more coherent calendar would be excellent and would sync well with one of Demos Drakonia policies from the last election (Office of the Days and Months).

Their foreign policy was 100% what I was planning to vote for before everything in Kerkyra went to shit. Eretria has spent too long bouncing from idea to idea never properly focusing on something and seeing it to completion. So after gaining the Messapii I felt it was incredibly important we really focus on that and get them integrated and fully accepting of their place as our tributary and to deal with the Dauni. We know they're a considerable threat and we've seen their King desires war with us... Unfortunately, like I've said a couple of times, I just don't see how we can ignore Kerkyra given how incredibly important the Adriatic is to us.

I suppose the upside is if we choose Demos Antipatria for Proboulos in this election we'll be able to reform our military before going to war with the Dauni next time. And it probably would need to be next time, we can't ignore them and the integration of the Messapii.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

I feel bad for Mnemnon Keylonos (the Demos Exoria Xenoparakletor), he did a fantastic job and in any other circumstance we really should stick with him and let him finish the job with the Messapii and Dauni, but things are kind of on fire elsewhere.

racnor said:

Since it was fairly easy missed as part of my general post:

ATHENS WILL ATTACK KERKRYA IF WE DON'T.

They have the democratic leadership, the city is isolated by water, and it's a naval station for them.

The benefit with attacking ourselves is that we get them on our side, but the peloponesian league was willing to commit 53 ships to the defense of the oligarchs when athens attacked them.

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Furthermore, and I really need to stress this, Athens might attack Kerkyra even if we do too! Or at least strongarm us to side with them in the Peloponnesian War, now that we've gotten involved. And this is in addition to already pissing off the other guys.

Worst case, we'll end up in conflict with both sides.

The more I think about it, the more I come to believe that we absolutely need to keep out of this mess.

"Let us recall, fellow citizens, that not long after the arrival of our ancestors on these shores they were approached by a party of Epidamnians represented by Leontios. They sought our aid in imposing a democracy upon their home city, utilizing the ludicrous and impious idea of impersonating Apollo. In their wisdom our ancestors had no part in this, and avoided any effort to impose democracy upon other cities. Thus we were able to work together with oligarchies, monarchies, tyrannies, and fellow democracies alike as suited our interests. I feel it best if other cities need not fear that we should interfere in their affairs.

Kerkyra does present a threat to our interests if it allied with Corinth. But the impositions of this oligarchy and their dependence upon Kerkyra's rival for the Adriatic trade makes them unstable. Nor have they yet taken measures unfriendly to our city. It would be better for our interests if they were ruled by a friendly democracy, to be sure. But our interests would be sustained by a friendly oligarchy or a friendly tyranny or a friendly monarchy as well. And our true interests are best sustained with our reputation for impartiality toward the decisions made by fellow Hellenes about their internal governance, moving only against overweaning ambition and threats such as those of Syracuse in its attempt to dominate all Hellenes of Sicily and Italia alike.

And we must consider the consequences of failure. If Eretrian marines and triremes invade Kerkyra on the invitation of a faction but fail to win over the city, we have committed ourselves to war. We might perhaps back out, with significant indemnities and humiliation and concessions to our rival Corinth. Or we shall have to make common cause with Athens and seek to overthrow the power of Corinth. I do not think it is within our power to win victory over Corinth alone. And to become an ally of Athens rather than a friend is a path fraught with many perils.

Thus I say we should leave well enough alone with Kerkyra unless they demonstrate hostility toward our city. Corinth is not in the position to make more enemies with Athens burning their fleets, so perhaps they will avoid provoking us at least until this great war is over. But we know Syracuse is our enemy, and will remain our enemy. So we should make sure that they cannot grow in power by dividing the Sicilians at their conference of the Common Peace. And if worse should come to worse, the wise Obander proposes measures that will let us readily form up a coalition for the defense of Southern Italia from a Sicilian invasion without distraction from our own local quarrels."

While I acknowledge the potential risks that come with involving ourselves with Kerkyra and by extension Korinth as laid out by Obander, I must warn the citizens of Eretria not to let prudent caution turn into short-sighted cowardice. The wealth of this city does not spring from Sicily but from the Adriatic. First the vile Korinthians ousted the democrats from power in Epidamnos and now Kerkyra stands on the precipice of tyranny. Will those be the final cities to fall under the boot of Korinth? No, now is the time to draw a line in the sand and deal with our problems in the Adriatic before they grow too large and the trade that has made this city great is strangled. I've warned about the Korinthians and the pirates of the Adriatic in the past and the problems have only grown during the last four years. Can we wait another four while we deal with the Sicily?

On the matter of home, the situation is thankfully less dire. I freely acknowledge the appeal of all the platforms but must admit a certain fondness for the Antipatrids. The Pythagoreans will bring much needed learning and the Divine Marriage has always been a point of pride for our fair city.

So says Nereus the Captain, son of Miltiades.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

Versharl said:

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)

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Think you misvoted here given you approve of the Antipatrid platform.

HastyGaming said:

Their foreign policies are critically important I think. The matter of Kerkyra is simultaneously important, time-limited and a direct and immediate threat to Eretria. Up until now Kerkyra has acted as a buffer and a guard against Korinthos (and Athens to a lesser extent) and has prevented them from sweeping the Adriatic Sea. If Kerkyra were to fall under the sway of either of them that would be disastrous for us.

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If Kerkyra were to fall under our sway, however, it would make us players in their game.

Neutrality would stop being an option. Which would be much, much worse than a Kerkyra under Athenian influence.

Right now, Hellas is busy with its own conflicts - as long as we remain not directly relevant to these conflicts, few there will want to pick yet another fight for no gain. But if we start picking fights in Hellas? Things will change. And not in a good way.

You're right: Kerkyra is a massive threat. But the threat is not Kerkyra falling into Athenian or Korinthian hands, its that Drakonia efforts to gain control of Kerkyra might bring us into conflicts we're not ready for.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)

I think people are maybe regarding Kerkyra as too much of a threat right now. They're a potential issue in the future, if they stay aligned with Corinth. Which they won't, because Corinth fundamentally wants to keep them prostrate to renew their own hegemony over the Adriatic. Even if the Athenians don't knock the Kerkyran oligarchy over soon anyway, their relationship with Corinth is unstable and will either break back down into rivalry or will see the oligarchs overthrown.

And for the foreseeable future Corinth is not going to be picking fights with Eretria. It has all it an handle and then some working as the naval backbone of the Peloponnesian League. The proliferation of pirates is at least in a large part due to Corinth getting beaten down by Athens and thus no longer being as much of a presence in the upper Adriatic. They are a perennial threat but one that can be managed, just like the pirates themselves are. If however we wind up ranged with Athens the priority Corinth and Sparta attribute to doing harm to Eretria will be greatly increased, and we will be too busy fighting for our lives to consolidate power in the Adriatic.

The Drakonid policies in a vacuum are wonderful. But right now, especially with the fatal flaw of requiring an attempt to coup Kerkyra and thereby commit an act of war, they're wonderful policies at the very wrong time. Part of the challenge of this quest will always be picking the right policies at the right time to be carried out by the right leader. And right now the Drakonid foreign policy fails that test.

Driven by Apathy said:

If Kerkyra were to fall under our sway, however, it would make us players in their game.

Neutrality would stop being an option. Which would be much, much worse than a Kerkyra under Athenian influence.

Right now, Hellas is busy with its own conflicts - as long as we remain not directly relevant to these conflicts, few there will want to pick yet another fight for no gain. But if we start picking fights in Hellas? Things will change. And not in a good way.

You're right: Kerkyra is a massive threat. But the threat is not Kerkyra falling into Athenian or Korinthian hands, its that Drakonia efforts to gain control of Kerkyra might bring us into conflicts we're not ready for.

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We are doomed to such strong-arming regardless. Because the wealth of our city depends on the trade of the Adriatic, any party that secures control over Kerkyra might force us into their faction. We are equipped neither to face the combined armada of Kerkrya and Korinth or Kerkyra and Athens should either give us an ultimatum. Only by wresting control over Kerkyra first can we establish a credible neutral faction.

Driven by Apathy said:

If Kerkyra were to fall under our sway, however, it would make us players in their game.

Neutrality would stop being an option. Which would be much, much worse than a Kerkyra under Athenian influence.

Right now, Hellas is busy with its own conflicts - as long as we remain not directly relevant to these conflicts, few there will want to pick yet another fight for no gain. But if we start picking fights in Hellas? Things will change. And not in a good way.

You're right: Kerkyra is a massive threat. But the threat is not Kerkyra falling into Athenian or Korinthian hands, its that Drakonia efforts to gain control of Kerkyra might bring us into conflicts we're not ready for.

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I don't agree at all. Kerkyra remaining opposed to both Athens and Korinthos but unaligned from us is the very least of what is acceptable to Eretria because if they fall under the sway of either we're in massive trouble in the Adriatic. To such an extent that we may not even be able to hold what we have.

Since that isn't possible we have to step in and ensure they remain opposed to Athens and Korinthos, even if it requires our involvement. We've already long gone past the point where we can rely on history to know what's going to happen. There's no guarantee that Athens will involve themselves to reinstall the Democrats, there's even less guarantee they'd be successful.

Conflict with Korinthos would be unfortunate, but with the assistance of Kerkyra more than manageable. Conflict with Athens is less desirable, but as we'd be reinstalling the democrats it's unlikely to occur. On the other hand, either of them controlling Kerkyra, especially Korinthos, is a direct and potentially fatal threat to Eretria's control of the Adriatic and therefore its livelihood.

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)

[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

Satar said:

We are doomed to such strong-arming regardless. Because the wealth of our city depends on the trade of the Adriatic, any party that secures control over Kerkyra might force us into their faction.

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You forget, that party will have the other party to contend with. And they will not simply concede Kerkyra to their enemy. Eretria will not be a great concern to either of them, not before the issue of Kerkyra is conclusively settled. And by the time that happens, other affairs might very well have come to matter more to them. With the war in Hellas, there is a never ending list of crises to distract them.

If, on the other hand, Eretria were to take control of Kerkyra... do you honestly think either of the struggling giants would be willing to simply ignore that? No, we would be forced to take sides.

[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

I feel that the pirate issue is one we must address. However, I agree that the imposition of Demokratia upon Kerkyra, would go too far. Let us not give Sparta and Korinthos cause to turn their gaze upon us, lest we find the blessings of the Gods denied us out of hubris. Athenai will return to Kerkyra, they must, they have no choice. Or Kerkyra will liberate itself. But it is not our problem, instead I would vote we establish the colony at Issas, and deal with the pirates ourselves. Let the Antipatrids otherwise turn our gaze back to our fellow Italliotes, that we might draw them together for our common cause and benefit. Let Taras know we are no foe of theirs, nor will we seek further conflict with them, now that we have secured our dominion over the Iapyges.