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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Ironanvil1 said:
The idea of a League Strategos seemed like one of the best reform proposals. Rather than us having to herd cats to get all the various cities of the League in order during a war, they sort that out themselves, and present us with a single Strategos representing them that we can shout at.
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Also it means they get into raging brawls over who gets to be in charge, which we can settle as an interested but impartial onlooker and thus condition the League cities to accept Eretria as the mediator of their disputes.

Satar said:
Do elephants count as mercenaries?
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The best sort of mercenaries: we can pay them peanuts.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Can we have less of this, please? This wailing and gnashing of teeth is not warranted at this point, and it can make the game less fun for others, including the majority of players who voted to go to war.
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Yea, his spirit is sour enough to curdle milk into curd, but he is not wrong in the aim of his argument, but only in his degree. We have made many an avoidable mistake to find ourselves in this predicament. If you have helped lead us to these ends...it behooves you tolerate at least this much. That being said, he ought understand that whether we desired war or not, we have found it; and furthermore, grieving the mistakes of the past is not suited for the present cut and thrust of war.

So says Skantarios the hoplite.
 
I'm thinking that wrangling the various Messapii is more trouble than it's worth and that they'll be less effective.

@Cetashwayo How much more expensive would it be to elevate Artahias now if we made a user motion?

I do expect egg on our faces but I don't trust the confederacy not to shoot itself in the foot from infighting on the field, even if we're there. I'm guessing that those secret alliances are also gonna be called into question too.

But I take it our cavalry and skirmishers would be safer as a trade-off? Maybe less manpower on our part would be needed for the war?
 
Orisha91 said:
@Cetashwayo How much more expensive would it be to elevate Artahias now if we made a user motion?
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It would make the city look vacillating and weak at this point. You've made a commitment to keep the Messapii divided. If you win the war they will be easier to wrangle together and vassalize than if they were united, but obviously that has its own costs.

If you want to rally and organize the Messapii and use them properly, that's part of the Serpent's Vice.
 
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory

The speech of Antipatros, son of Lysandros on the War with Taras

I can agree with wise Sideros about a great many things on a great many issues. Indeed, even on this issue, I can agree with him on the majority of the issues. But I cannot agree with him on the matter of land. Some of you may recall that during the election I was torn, while I agreed with much of the platform of Demos Antipatria it was clear to me the policy of Demos Exoria on the redistribution of land was just indeed.

Too many of our fellow citizens have no land to call their own, no way to afford the Hoplite panoply and feel the need to lower their heads for shame. These past years we have done much for the Metics of our Polis, and much now do we do for the League. It is time we did the same for our own citizens, our own brothers, who fortune has not favoured these last 30 years.

For the city the cost is trifling, and the return is great indeed. Dignity for all citizens, Hoplites for the Polis... Who among you truly thinks this is too much?


On the matter of the war itself I know some of you will wish to go to Metapontion for aid, and indeed I wish we could. But to gain an ally at the cost of a second war is not a favourable trade. With the strategy of Epiktetos Linos we can delay the advance of Talas and avoid a pitched battle thus lessening our need for the aid of Metapontion. In return, we force the Dauni to stay at peace and even gain allies amongst them. And when that deed is done then we can look to Metapontion if there is still a need.

Ironanvil1 said:
The idea of a League Strategos seemed like one of the best reform proposals. Rather than us having to herd cats to get all the various cities of the League in order during a war, they sort that out themselves, and present us with a single Strategos representing them that we can shout at.
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Definitely, although it may become an issue far into the future when Eretria is outnumbered by the other members. But that's something we can handle.

Also, @Cetashwayo having plan votes with options that have [][Diplomacy (eg)] seems to be screwing with the built-in Tally. Still works fine on NetTally though.
 
@HastyGaming the Hoplites aren't really necessary, and send us off once again down the path of landbound interests, when we want our middle and lower class citizens to be looking to the seas for their fortunes and glory.
The hope would be that victory over Taras secures our hegemony of our local area, and that future conflicts will be conducted overseas.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
@HastyGaming the Hoplites aren't really necessary, and send us off once again down the path of landbound interests, when we want our middle and lower class citizens to be looking to the seas for their fortunes and glory.
The hope would be that victory over Taras secures our hegemony of our local area, and that future conflicts will be conducted overseas.
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Victory over Taras wouldn't secure our Hegemony, we'd also need to defeat the Dauni and bring them to heel. Also, our middle and lower classes will be stuck without a means to look to the sea for a while, especially our lower classes, who don't have the money to be anything over the labourers at the docks or hopefully rowers, a position taken by Metics more and more frequently.
 
"The son of Pelagios speaks true. We must trust in the strong spears of Thurii to caution Metapontion's wariness of our strike against Taras. On our end, we must make sure the cowardly Dauni do not strike at our backs."

[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
 
Ironanvil1 said:
@HastyGaming the Hoplites aren't really necessary, and send us off once again down the path of landbound interests, when we want our middle and lower class citizens to be looking to the seas for their fortunes and glory.
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I can understand that might be something you (and others Im sure) want to encourage but I'm not looking at this as just something for this war. This is something I fundamentally feel is best for the City. No matter what we want this won't be our last war, and the hoplites are the foundation of our forces so an increase in their number is always desirable and something I did talk about during the election vote.

Moreover, it's not just a mechanical decision for me. With everthing we've done for the metics, with everything we're now doing for the League, and as much wealth as the aristocrats have earned of the last 30 odd years I feel it's absolutely necessary that this is done for the less wealthy citizens.

And beyond that, while a small grant of land might discourage some of them from pursuing their wealth at sea via trade I don't feel it would be any kind of substantial block. Afterall, I doubt owning masses of land stopped the aristocrats and landlords from exploiting trade to grow even more wealthy. This, to me, is just a helping hand for these citizens. Not a block on their future ambition or path.
 
McLuvin said:
Victory over Taras wouldn't secure our Hegemony, we'd also need to defeat the Dauni and bring them to heel. Also, our middle and lower classes will be stuck without a means to look to the sea for a while, especially our lower classes, who don't have the money to be anything over the labourers at the docks or hopefully rowers, a position taken by Metics more and more frequently.
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Half the Dauni (and the ones we most want) are champing at the bit to come under our hegemony voluntarily. That, plus the League, the Peuketti, the Messapii, and Eretria itself, would make for a damn formidable target for the rump Dauni to try and take on.
We've previously granted slaves/funds to our lower-class citizens in lieu of trying to turn everyone into hoplites, and it worked quite well in spurring our commercial and maritime growth. Remember, we've got a thriving luxury sea-silk trade, and fishing is a major and respected industry for our citizens - Eusebios came from there, after all.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
We've previously granted slaves/funds to our lower-class citizens in lieu of trying to turn everyone into hoplites, and it worked quite well in spurring our commercial and maritime growth.
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That's true, but things have changed. The 34 years between the end of the last quest and this one have seen a number of the poorer citizens fall into debt and been forced to sell their land to larger landholders. This is a correction of that trend. This is the helping hand they need to get started again, whether that's on land or at sea.
 
I see distributing land now as likely to increase our interest in trade in the future by increasing the number of citizens who have the money to express interest in buying imported goods.
 
The one issue with the sales of land is that it's a strictly limited supply of public land we're selling off, a supply that was carefully built up, and will be hard to build up again. It's tempting, but we are trading off against a limited resource which was built up for the good of the city. If enabling more middling farmers is a serious concern, it might be better to grant some of our poorer citizens farms on the Mesapii or Dauni borders after the war, and create Hoplite farm-steaders that way.

Honestly I could go either way on it.
 
''The question put to this Eklesia is rather simple: why are we marching to war? Many would say that Eretria is fighting for hegemony, to build what Korinthos had in the old days and what Syrakousai failed to keep in the day of Herodion the Hero, to carve for Eretria in Italia what Lakedemoi has for itself in the Peloponese and Athenai in the islands of the Aegean and the coasts of the Peloponesus. It will be said by our ennemies and some of our citizens might even believe it. Some would say we will fought by love for the Messapii barbaroi.

This Eklesia must remember, however, that the truth is otherwise: we are fighting this war for the same reason we fought all past wars: the safety of our polis and its citizens. a safety that would gravely be comprised had Taras been allowed to subjugate the Messapii permanently and use them to pursue forever greater expansion in Epulia. Theron Zosimos and Xanthos Irenaeos offer us great prizes should we emerge victorious but also put much of the city future in the Ares hands. Epiktetos Linos plan stand a better chance to achieve safety for the Polis while also limiting the risks it will face.

Should we remain moderate in our aims Metapontion will not intervene and sending our Xenopractor to the Dauni will ensure that also remain in their homes. Rewarded by the Polis for their Arete and the sacrifices they will made to ensure Niké smile on Eretria I have faith that our hoplites and those of our allies in the league will emerge victorious.''

So spoke Nikephoros son of Lysandros.

[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
 
Admiral Skippy said:
The one issue with the sales of land is that it's a strictly limited supply of public land we're selling off, a supply that was carefully built up, and will be hard to build up again. It's tempting, but we are trading off against a limited resource which was built up for the good of the city. If enabling more middling farmers is a serious concern, it might be better to grant some of our poorer citizens farms on the Mesapii or Dauni borders after the war, and create Hoplite farm-steaders that way.

Honestly I could go either way on it.
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Conversely, we could make up the public lands from Dauni and Taras post-war. Those olive plantations in Taras for example. Or perhaps some of the salt mines in Salapia.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Half the Dauni (and the ones we most want) are champing at the bit to come under our hegemony voluntarily. That, plus the League, the Peuketti, the Messapii, and Eretria itself, would make for a damn formidable target for the rump Dauni to try and take on.
We've previously granted slaves/funds to our lower-class citizens in lieu of trying to turn everyone into hoplites, and it worked quite well in spurring our commercial and maritime growth. Remember, we've got a thriving luxury sea-silk trade, and fishing is a major and respected industry for our citizens - Eusebios came from there, after all.
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Please note, that the Dauni aren't defeated yet. Their king is known for being canny and killing off his political enemies, how long may those rebel lords be in power, before they're replaced? Last time we underestimated the Dauni it hurt us.

And instead of giving them land, and letting them become better soldiers in the war we're going to fight, and doing so now when there's discontent and a larger than usual social gap, we are instead going to give them a money hand out? You used an example of us giving them stuff to placate them and try and kickstart them. Yet then claim that just leaving them will lead to similar results.

Or are you suggesting we give them money/slaves to kickstart them during a war with Taras? Or waiting until after, after we've rejected giving them land and stability, after we have the League more power, which they're discontent with, after giving Metics more rights, the only things the Aktimones have that helps make them feel better about their social standing, after the Drakonids have increased their own wealth and taken large amounts of control over the idea of shipping, giving it more and more to the Aristoi families, after we've asked them to march to war and die for us.

Tell me, why would the Aktimones want to turn to the same seas as those who widened the wealth gap, after having watched everyone else be uplifted before being rejected themselves?
 
One thing to consider is that Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with whichever side is chosen. That doesn't guarantee success. Given his bearing and demeanor I'd say he's more cut out to negotiate with barbaroi, though the cunning and treachery of King Ausculos as presented gives me grave reservations about the potential for success there. On the other hand if Mnemnon just reinforces stereotypes about the Eretrians being half-barbarian to the Metapontines that would be worse than useless; but of the two, Metapontion is by far the most dangerous foe.

The Dauni can raid the lands of the Epulian League and perhaps even burn the groves and loot the farms of our allies, but probably cannot take a defended city. And after our business with Taras is finished that would give us an excuse to fight them, that is if we still have any stomach for further war. But if the Metapontines combine with Taras they'll have an undoubtedly superior phalanx through sheer numbers if nothing else, and that raises the risk that Eretria might be the besieged rather than the besieger. They could also set a precedent for outside cities to intervene, and Eretria has plenty of potential enemies around; Syracuse, Corinth, Lokri, and Krotone at least nearby, leaving aside the possibility of the Spartans intervening in favor of their colony should the Athenians shift their fleets eastward or suffer a local reverse.
 
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