Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[x] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

I think that many people are overestimating the willingness of the citizenry to go along with including metics on the juries.

Obviously, if the motion passes the ekklesia at the present moment, a majority of the citizens participating must approve, but there's going to be opposition and it's likely to cause civil unrest.

My own vote was chosen pretty specifically to grant the metics all the privileges NOT related specifically to participation in the political process, because that is what is most effectively preserves a line between citizens and metics while still granting the metics relief from most of their pressing problems.

I would much rather create a separate court for the metics (something not uncommon in Greek city-states, as I understand it) than use mixed juries, because the bulk of our citizenry- even if they vote for this- on some level is still adhering to a very polis-shaped concept of citizenship, and blurring the citizen's duty and privilege to make legally binding choices regarding the polis, extending that duty and privilege to metics in the form of jury duty, is going to run up against that.

It's gonna cause friction, probably more than any of the other proposals besides letting a metic into the Assembly, IMO.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

Simon_Jester said:

I would much rather create a separate court for the metics (something not uncommon in Greek city-states, as I understand it) than use mixed juries, because the bulk of our citizenry- even if they vote for this- on some level is still adhering to a very polis-shaped concept of citizenship, and blurring the citizen's duty and privilege to make legally binding choices regarding the polis, extending that duty and privilege to metics in the form of jury duty, is going to run up against that.

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haha that's actually quite funny because we originally abolished our metic court, deciding that a single court had to be better

hindsight is great, right

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Talent.
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to post my reasoning here, but one thing that jumps out to me is I feel like the jury reform is potentially quite a bit bigger than I think a lot of people realise.

Simon_Jester said:

I would much rather create a separate court for the metics (something not uncommon in Greek city-states, as I understand it) than use mixed juries

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This was something that was explicitly rejected in the previous quests. Obviously that doesn't mean it can't change, but it would be quite a departure from what the city has done up until this point.

HastyGaming said:

Obviously that doesn't mean it can't change

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I think it does actually, we firmly rejected it, and created an ideal, one court, one city, one people. That seems to have become heavily ingrained, the Metics mention repeated rejections over the half century since on the idea of changing it. It was a core tenant in our city, the idea of unified law.

Maybe it was a mistake in hindsight, but I'm pretty sure it's very culturally ingrained, I imagine changing it is like someone trying to change the legal idea of precedence that we've stuck to since we created our laws. Though I may be wrong about that, if our people have IC defended it for so long, I don't think it'll be safe to change for a good long while.

It is truly heartening to see the support my fellow citizens have for those seeking the same freedoms and liberties we enjoy in our great poleis. I will likewise join my voice to the choir calling for Eretria to be a safe habor for the brave men of Epidamnos who yet seek to win their freedom and reestablish a truly just rule in Epidamnos modelled on our own.

It is, however, equally unfornate to see that fellow Eretrians fall into the grips of paranoia, seeing blades hidden behind backs where none exist. The metics that have come to Eretria have conducted themselves with honor and have shown the respect our institutions deserve. They may not have felt the love that you and I feel for Eretria when they arrived on these fair shores but have grown to love the city in their time spent here. So too, will the Metics that now come from Hellas learn to love this great city. Bring the learned and the skilled to our shores and they will prosper alongside Eretrians!

Finally, on the matter of the Metic grievances. Others have already spoken eloquently and at length on the matter so I will keep it short. There is surely merit in the request of regular presentation of such in the same way that we hold regularly schedueled elections. Not only would this benefit the Metics but it would also grant us citizens a measure of predictability on the matter. However, the Metics overstep on the matter of representation. We cannot allow the sanctity of the Ekklesia to be violated by non-citizens. Let us instead grant citizenship to the greatest of the Metics so that they may chose such heroes of our city as their representative in the assembly. On the lesser matters of marriage and juries, I defer to the words of others.

So says Nereus the Captain, son of Miltiades.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

I feel like Eretria's most pressing deficiency is its lack of cultural capital. We have manpower aplenty, but the rest of Hellas looks upon us as uncultured swine. As for the Metics... I feel that, while some of these greviences are reasonable and should be addressed, we should avoid creating a dual power structure that could potentially undermine Eretria's stability. Plus, it would be OOC for us to immediately go full progressive when it comes to Metic rights, considering the attitudes of Greeks.

McLuvin said:

I think it does actually, we firmly rejected it, and created an ideal, one court, one city, one people. That seems to have become heavily ingrained, the Metics mention repeated rejections over the half century since on the idea of changing it. It was a core tenant in our city, the idea of unified law.

Maybe it was a mistake in hindsight, but I'm pretty sure it's very culturally ingrained, I imagine changing it is like someone trying to change the legal idea of precedence that we've stuck to since we created our laws. Though I may be wrong about that, if our people have IC defended it for so long, I don't think it'll be safe to change for a good long while.

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I would certainly agree that I don't think it should be changed, but we need to accept that anything can change. The question is more along the lines of 'how damaging an impact would it have on the city'. I think on this issue it has probably reached a state where the impact of changing it would be substantial enough that it would be an awful idea to change it, but it could happen.

[x] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

HastyGaming said:

I would certainly agree that I don't think it should be changed, but we need to accept that anything can change. The question is more along the lines of 'how damaging an impact would it have on the city'. I think on this issue it has probably reached a state where the impact of changing it would be substantial enough that it would be an awful idea to change it, but it could happen.

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Well, the issue is definitely coming to a head.

Metics won't want to be tried under all-citizen juries, but citizens won't be happy mingling with metics on juries, and given that juries in ancient Greek democratic polises tended to be really big, having large groups of metics and citizens present in what are likely to turn into very... exercised... disputes that are literally life and death for certain individual metics (or citizens!) is going to be a probable flash point for future friction.

Simon_Jester said:

disputes that are literally life and death for certain individual metics (or citizens!) is going to be a probable flash point for future friction.

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At least their current request only asks for them to be included on juries for cases involving Metics so Metics would never themselves judge cases where citizens are being tried, I can only imagine the fury if they had requested that.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

Great to see this back! At the moment I am too busy for an in-character argument, sorry, but I still wish to cast my vote.

Now that I actually have a few minutes...

Cetashwayo said:

As wise Antipatros, son of Lysandros, said in the last year, there is a necesisty for clarity and decisiveness in our actions.

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My first in quest mention!

Cetashwayo said:

In Taras, the proboulos has been elected, called Myron Aristeides. He is a man of much renown in Taras, from a family that won glory in battle against the Messapii.

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Disappointing news for us, last year they were quarreling and fighting amongst themselves, now they seem to have managed to come to some sort of peace and elect a leader, and a military man at that.

Cetashwayo said:

The King Sitalces gathers his forces and prepares for a grand invasion of Makedon!

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Thrace is about to invade Makedon, wonderful. It'll be interesting to see if this plays out like it did in real life or if things might take a different path. Maybe Athens will actually provide him the support they promised?

Cetashwayo said:

OBANDER

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I have to say I'm now very glad that Demos Antipatria didn't win the Xenoparakletor election because their candidate Obander did not impress me during this debate.


@Cetashwayo if the vote to allow Metics to gain citizenship through heroic acts passes, are there any Metics who have performed such deeds in recent memory?

I'm just wondering if we could grant a Metic citizenship for actions already performed - that are judged significant enough to justify citizenship - when the change is passed as part of the package? It might help to mitigate their unhappiness from not being allowed to elect a Metic as Prytanis (as that seems, rightly imo, unlikely to pass) if there was a Metic raised to citizen before the next election.


I'm curious as well (and this is for general discussion, not specifically Cetashwayo), if we went the other route and voted not to let them become citizens and instead "celebrated [heroic Metics] by having their burdens and restrictions lifted" could this in the future lead to a new 'class'? Higher than Metic but not quite a citizen? Fewer burdens, more rights, but not able to vote etc.?

If so it might be worth considering simply because I know quite a few people have been keen on the idea of a half-citizen for a while (although Im not 100% sold on the idea myself).

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, son of Mukabryzos Eretriazenis the Psiloi, son of Bryzos the Psiloi, do vote for the following on the following reasons.

For the matter of the Epidamnians, we should host them because they have fled from the tyranny of Korinthos. Its as simple as that, so I don't see what the worry about these poor folks are all about. And even if they do something naughty we can always just expel the ones involved in that naughty thing out of our territory, right?

On the matter of immigration, it is another simple matter! LOYALTY to us should be the overwhelming criteria for new metics!

On the matter of the Metic grievances, I chose to stick with our present system of having a citizen represent the Metics. Because that will ensure the Metics remain invested in our system of governance. I chose to allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, even though I prefer it to be once every two years to be sure we can keep in touch with our Metics. I chose to reform the marriage related laws because come on this isn't about being Metic or Citizens this is about being men! Let's not embarrass them further, alright? I chose letting Metic heroes become citizens because that way we, Eretria, shall receive a constant influx of brave men willing to fight for Eretria forevermore! And finally I chose to stick with the present system of citizens judging the Metics! For that way we truly have a fair system that isn't compromised by any ties with the Metics!

That is my vote, good day my fellow citizens! I shall now return to my family's thermopolion! Bryzos' thermopolion! Located in the port district! Fresh cooked fish and octopus all year around!

HastyGaming said:

If so it might be worth considering simply because I know quite a few people have been keen on the idea of a half-citizen for a while (although Im not 100% sold on the idea myself).

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In the long-term we might go for "half-citizens" through a form of league citizenship. Similar to the Status given by Romans to Latins and allies, although most likely not going as far as what the swamp hicks do. See: Latin Rights - Wikipedia

Cetashwayo said:

Further, here are the results of the elections and attendant offices chosen by lot!
​

Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
Lead Strategos: Only appointed in times of war.
Metic Prytanis: Timotaios Herais (Demos Antipatria), elected by the Metics.

Agoranomos: Arkadios Ambrosios (Demos Antipatria), chosen by lot.
Assembly of the Mint: Paramonos Diokles (Demos Antipatria), chosen by lot.
Chief of Public Lands: Arsenios Hermagoras (Demos Exoria), chosen by lot.
Grand Mantis: Polykarpos Lykos (Demos Antipatria), chosen by lot.
Elder Ekdromos: Alexandros Hilarion (Demos Exoria), chosen by lot.

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What a landslide!

the Demos Drakonia are going to need to do a lot of squats to come back from this defeat

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Manpower.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.

[X] [Immigration] Manpower.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

Admiral Skippy said:

What a landslide!

the Demos Drakonia are going to need to do a lot of squats to come back from this defeat

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TBF their foreign policy, if it's roughly the same next election year, will likely win a lot of traction, the pirates are becoming more bold, we seem to be drawing closer to clashing over the Adriatic with Kerkya and trade with Greece is getting interrupted, causing us to potentially open new trade routes to compensate.

The same goes for the Exoria, once the temples and Metics are done, it's very likely they'll be able to take a hand in the city itself a Proboulos, due to their infrastructure and land distribution focus which has always been popular amongst the player base.

What I'm trying to say is, if the parties remain consistent, and don't have any wild policy changes, then it's very likely there'll be a lot of flip flopping, as the players want things each party promises, but have to stepnfrok party to party to try and get them, I'm doubtful any party will actually hold control of the city for an extended period, as the Drakonids did for 30 or so years.