Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

A thought occurs. What if we were to retain all-citizen juries but have metics regularly elect a slate of citizen jurors from whom some proportion (half, perhaps?) of the jury would always be drawn in trials where a metic is a defendant?

The Sandman said:

A thought occurs. What if we were to retain all-citizen juries but have metics regularly elect a slate of citizen jurors from whom some proportion (half, perhaps?) of the jury would always be drawn in trials where a metic is a defendant?

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That would rather defeat the idea of a random jury.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

veekie said:

- [] So long as at least one exists, that citizen shall be one who was raised from the ranks of the metics

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What is the purpose of this requirement? It seems redundant to mandate it for a position elected by the metics; wouldn't that be their preference to decide on anyway?

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

Interesting note on both Talent and Manpower is that it'd spawn quite a lot of Metic resentment by creating third class citizens out of one group or the other wouldn't it?

Talent devalues local, established craftsmen. Manpower brings in a whole new wave of cheap manpower desperate for any work, driving labor costs down.

Erastus, son of Nicodemus stands slowly upon his rock to speak, careful in memory of previous humiliating slips.

[x] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

"In this matter of the Epidamnians, I think us all agreed. And in that I take heart, that the sons of Eretria do not flinch away from what is right."

[x] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].

"Nay, I say, to those who profess the virtues of quantity or talent in a matter such as this. Eretria Eskhata was not a city founded by the teeming masses of Hellas nor was it founded solely by it's finest. Among our ranks are those of Illyrian and Italic stock, and them I would count higher in my esteem than the oldest Dorian and Ionian families in the east! This city was forged and formed by men loyal to the dream, the dream of a reborn Eretria! Our virtues are peculiar to other Greeks, we all know, but they are our virtues and thus they are right. If we are to host fellow Greeks, then they must know this and hold dear said virtues as much as they do their own blood."

[x] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.

"The metics overstep. The assembly is a right of citizens, and it shall remain as such!"

[x] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.

"To every man of Eretria belongs the right of grievance, that much is true. And we are not barbaroi, to treat such a grave right with casualness. That this was not standard before is a mark against our customs, and one that must be rectified post-haste!"

[x] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.

"I will not un-man a father of this city by disclaiming his custody over his daughter. There is nothing more that need be said of this matter."

[x] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.

"The proposal is fair and rightly-asked. As I have said before, Eretria is a city of it's own virtues. If a man of Hellas must embrace them to live among us, then should not those who live among us and stand as examplars be so honored as to be off the citizenry?"

[x] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

"Again, the metics overstep. To cast aspersions on the characters of our citizenry as a whole is unreasonable. While there are some among us with lowlier natures than those who they disparage, that is to their shame alone. Let those who conduct themselves improperly be castigated for such behavior, and let us move forward for a better Eretria!"

@Cetashwayo - If we do do the heroics for citizenship vote, is it (A) applicable backwards for existing, elderly metics who served honorably in our previous wars and (B) extendable to their heirs of the body?

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

Eritrea Eskhata did not come to where it is now by being insular and making foes of those who might in time have been friends. And are we not a democratic polis? What does it say of the strength and conviction of our ideas and our beliefs if we will not shelter those who hold them in times of crisis? Eritrea must be known in the east and the west as a people who will open their arms to those in need, if their need is great and their purpose strong.

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

We already have many men of fighting age and capability -- we do not need to inundate ourselves with a flood of more in the name of manpower. Else we might end like the Spartans, outnumbered in our own city by those supposedly beneath us. Rather, we should search for those of the finest talent and mental acuity to make our city a name for the ages.


[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

And what will these future lookers-on say of Eritrea Eshkata's treatment of the foreigner? They should say that they allowed them power over their own households, for what is a Hellene if he is not master of his own family and children? They should say also that they rewarded the mightiest and bravest who served their city the dignity of citizenship, for will the Metics not fight all the harder and braver if they know the ultimate reward awaits them at home? And if they bleed for us, indeed, should they not be able to judge themselves and know when, with a regularity, they might present their case before the people of the city?

We cannot, of course, grant them their own Prytanis. To have a speaker before the Assembly is the right of a citizen, and Metics are certainly not citizens. Through diligence and bold service, however, they may well become so.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty
[X] [Prytanis] Allow them to elect a Prytanis among themselves. them to elect a Prytanis among themselves.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Manpower.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] Metic heroes should be celebrated by having their burdens and restrictions lifted, not a reward of citizenship.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.

[Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Talent

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant

Droman said:

@Cetashwayo - If we do do the heroics for citizenship vote, is it (A) applicable backwards for existing, elderly metics who served honorably in our previous wars and (B) extendable to their heirs of the body?

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From what I read in his FAQ, I'm pretty sure citizenship is treated as hereditary; the son of a citizen is a citizen. It's basically Eretria Eshkaia's form of ethnic identity.

Whether this applies retroactively to children already born? Uh, guessing yes, could be wrong.

Whether this honor could be applied retrospectively to metics who served with heroism in past wars? Hm, good question, probably depends on what the ekklesia votes for, since this is basically going to be "the ekklesia passes a law saying that it's allowable to hold votes on whether to make a metic who meets certain conditions into a citizen. The exact details of these conditions are probably going to be picked out by @Ceteshwayo ...

Frankly, i think minor metic grievances to be more revolutionary than major ones.

Chopak said:

Frankly, i think minor metic grievances to be more revolutionary than major ones.

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That's mainly because the "regular metic complaint sessions" thing is a self-explanatory feature that almost any sane person would prefer, while the "let the metics send a man to the Assembly to complain" thing is so obviously going to provoke explosions among the citizenry that almost everyone opposes it.

The stuff in between is stuff that actually has a chance of passing, without being so unambiguously a good idea that even people who want to keep the metics subjugated support it.

I wouldn't say any of it's more revolutionary than letting a metic attend an Assembly meeting, though letting metics sit on juries with citizens comes very close and will probably cause problems.

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should send them away. Every step we take away from neutrality is a step we take to conflict. No matter the cost and no matter how simple it seems to be, we must not get involved under any circumstances in the squabbles of Hellas.


[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.

[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.

[X [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.

[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.

@Cetashwayo how strict would the rules be for granting citizenship to metic heroes?

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

butchock said:

@Cetashwayo how strict would the rules be for granting citizenship to metic heroes?

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Guessing it's going to be less like "served in the army" and more like "holy SHIT that was badass, I'd give you the Medal of Honor but it won't be invented for another 2300 years" territory.