- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. The plague hitting Athens- is that earlier than in our timeline, or later? Also, our grain shipments to Athens will be interrupted; not good for Athens.
Citizens are going to complain about letting metics serve on mixed juries if metics are the defendants. We'd do better to have a designated all-metic court than mixed juries.
See, the thing is, women in classical Greece couldn't marry without their fathers' permission anyway, and I'm pretty sure they couldn't initiate divorce proceedings. So having the father do it on his daughter's behalf is the only way to get her out of a shitty marriage. I'm in favor of this one, and it's in keeping with classical Greek values so far as I know, without involving any major concession likely to hurt the citizens- unless there are citizens who coerced metic men into letting the citizen marry their daughter, in which case those particular citizens deserve their troubles.
"My friend, allowing the father of a metic daughter to divorce her citizen husband might infringe upon some citizens- I will speak no further of them in this moment. But to allow a metic among us in the Assembly would infringe upon all the citizens! It is not to be stood for! No, it is to be jumped upon!"
Ah, point of order. The reform of letting the metics elect a speaker of their own to represent them at the Assembly is SUPER intrusive and offensive to Greek-style citizens of a place like Eretria. The Assembly is literally sacred, there's a reason why a citizen can be summarily beaten with clubs for interrupting key speakers during it. And it's an all-citizen affair. Letting the metics, or anyone not a citizen of Eretria, attend a meeting of the Assembly, would be a huge concession on the part of the Eretrian citizens. The normal penalty for a non-citizen intruding on the Assembly is death, or at least exile.....This is a very very delicate issue. I can absolutely agree to the Standardisation and Prytanis reform, it going further than that, and indeed directly causing conflict with the direct rights of citizens, namely gifting Metics equal rights directly to citizens, is dangerous when it comes to breeding resentment.
The first two don't overly step on Citizenship rights, and indeed don't seem to be a 'threat' there may be some grumbling about Metics not being directly influenced by the citizens as much, but it's manageable. It causes some political changes, but not rights changes. They are major reforms, but they're not offensive or intrusive
My first instinct is to allow ally he major reforms, but outright deny the minor ones. I'll need to think on this more
The two underlined passages conflict each other. We can't preserve the citizen/metic divide consistently while letting metics serve on juries with citizens.Yeah, we gotta keep in mind the Metics are second-class citizens. The plebs, if you will. At the end of the day, political power belongs to real citizens.
This is completely reasonable and honestly just a good idea.
This is a good idea. I've always beleived we should have a way to let the best and brightest (or wealthiest and most powerful) of the metics to make the jump.
Another eh, but justice is important. I'd add it in.
Citizens are going to complain about letting metics serve on mixed juries if metics are the defendants. We'd do better to have a designated all-metic court than mixed juries.
And, hm. A perverse thought. If we're looking to advance women's rights in Eretria, this might actually be it, by the way.Eh, this doesn't seem like it matters much, at least in comparison to everything else. Leave it out as an easy way to keep our citizens happy.
See, the thing is, women in classical Greece couldn't marry without their fathers' permission anyway, and I'm pretty sure they couldn't initiate divorce proceedings. So having the father do it on his daughter's behalf is the only way to get her out of a shitty marriage. I'm in favor of this one, and it's in keeping with classical Greek values so far as I know, without involving any major concession likely to hurt the citizens- unless there are citizens who coerced metic men into letting the citizen marry their daughter, in which case those particular citizens deserve their troubles.
Letting metics sit on juries also gives them rights customarily reserved to citizens. Letting metics attend the Assembly, even once in a long while as a spokesman, also gives a metic a right customarily reserved to citizens- and treated as sacred.To me, from the text given, it's essentially gifting the Metics a right exclusive to Citizens for a good long time on a wide basis. Even in its own blurb it's noted that it places them on a similar level. Which is where I draw my concern from, as Metics are a second class citizenry. To start outright elevating them so blatantly by sharing such obvious, and IC noted, rights may cause some controversy and conflict.
Leukos the Accountant:On the marriage issue, can we not elevate the second class citizens to the same level of our actual peoples in such a blindingly obvious way? The text itself directly equates it to infringing in the rights of the Citizens, it's a minor reform, and should not cause too much strife to dismiss. I know some of you want to go full hog on this, but we need to compromise, and the Marriage issue is the most glaringly obvious infringement on Citizen rights whilst also being a minor issue, one that can be dismissed more easily than others.
We should not jump headlong into this.
"My friend, allowing the father of a metic daughter to divorce her citizen husband might infringe upon some citizens- I will speak no further of them in this moment. But to allow a metic among us in the Assembly would infringe upon all the citizens! It is not to be stood for! No, it is to be jumped upon!"
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